Can you be an all time great if your best win is against Jeff Lacy?

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

Calzaghe is an all time great, Kostya Tsyzu I don't think so.

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Well the thing with Kostya is that after he first lost as a pro he came back and unified all the belts by fighting the best guys in his division. We don't know if Joe could have come back from a loss in such a way and never will and we know he never fought the best in his division.

Joe has a good record and retired unbeaten but I'd say coming back from a loss and dominating the division is just as great.

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Originally Posted by Kel

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

Calzaghe is an all time great, Kostya Tsyzu I don't think so.

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Well the thing with Kostya is that after he first lost as a pro he came back and unified all the belts by fighting the best guys in his division. We don't know if Joe could have come back from a loss in such a way and never will and we know he never fought the best in his division.

Joe has a good record and retired unbeaten but I'd say coming back from a loss and dominating the division is just as great.

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But surely it's better to not have lost in the first place. It's a baffling logic that i hear all the time. Weird.

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

many think B-Hop beat him, Eubank was old and shot, many feel that even Reid beat Calzaghe, he remained undefeated for 15 yrs, cause he took on fighters like Peter Manfredo, and refused to take on the best while they were the best, for example Roy Jones, the bigger name, and Calzaghe didn't make an effort to get the fight until Jones was shot, hardly make Calzaghe an all time great
same here, i'd say that both were the best in their respective divisions, but both had pretty weak divisions (and i'm saying this after re-watching and analysing most of Tszyu's big wins), both were very good fighters, i'd hardly say great

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Eubank had plenty left, he put on one of his best performances against JC and then stepped up 2 weight divisions and had 2 epic battles with Carl Thompson. I had JC beating Reid and Nard. As for JC not making the effort to get the Jones fight, don't het me started on the fights Jones should've had and didn't!

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why is that not a surprise coming from you? and you mean the same Thompson who already had 4 losses when he took on an ancient Eubank? i'd dare say more people will say that Hopkins and Reid won the fights against Calzaghe, and on the Jones thing, who was the bigger name in their primes on an international level? that's right it was the man who was p4p king for most of his career, Jones Jr

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Why's that then?

Am I not the person who said Hatton was not great? Did I not predict he would get stopped by Mayweather and Pac I think you're getting me mixed up with someone else son ;)

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by BIG H

I think beating Jeff Lacy, Mikkel Kessler, A still very good Bernard Hopkins, World champions such as Eubank, Woodhall, Reid, Mitchell & Brewer and remaining undefeated for 15 years would give you at least an equal claim as somebody who got banged out by a veteran Vince Philips ;)

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If he beat Hopkins, if Hopkins won, and what happens when you have a hard time landing cleanly on a 40 year old who could still pot shot you at will when you weren't overwhelming him with slaps? I give Calzaghe all the credit in the world for coming up so close with Hopkins(I felt Hopkins won by the knockdown) and beating guys like Kessler and Lacy so onesidedly, but he looked bad against Roy Jones, and I still say those people who gave him 11 rounds were smoking crack.

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Until he got cut, Jones was giving Calzaghe all he could handle. Jones was tagging with right hands constantly. If Jones would have put it all out on the line after he hurt Calzaghe, he might have stopped him. I was sitting surrounded by Calzaghe fans and not of them would deny that a young Roy would have destroyed Calzaghe after seeing how close it was against a shot Roy Jones.

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by BIG H

I think beating Jeff Lacy, Mikkel Kessler, A still very good Bernard Hopkins, World champions such as Eubank, Woodhall, Reid, Mitchell & Brewer and remaining undefeated for 15 years would give you at least an equal claim as somebody who got banged out by a veteran Vince Philips ;)

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If he beat Hopkins, if Hopkins won, and what happens when you have a hard time landing cleanly on a 40 year old who could still pot shot you at will when you weren't overwhelming him with slaps? I give Calzaghe all the credit in the world for coming up so close with Hopkins(I felt Hopkins won by the knockdown) and beating guys like Kessler and Lacy so onesidedly, but he looked bad against Roy Jones, and I still say those people who gave him 11 rounds were smoking crack.

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Until he got cut, Jones was giving Calzaghe all he could handle. Jones was tagging with right hands constantly. If Jones would have put it all out on the line after he hurt Calzaghe, he might have stopped him. I was sitting surrounded by Calzaghe fans and not of them would deny that a young Roy would have destroyed Calzaghe after seeing how close it was against a shot Roy Jones.

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I agree with you that a young Jones beats any version of Calzaghe, but I think you were watching a different fight if you actually think Jones was ever in anyway 'In' the fight that actually happend.

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

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Originally Posted by Taeth

If he beat Hopkins, if Hopkins won, and what happens when you have a hard time landing cleanly on a 40 year old who could still pot shot you at will when you weren't overwhelming him with slaps? I give Calzaghe all the credit in the world for coming up so close with Hopkins(I felt Hopkins won by the knockdown) and beating guys like Kessler and Lacy so onesidedly, but he looked bad against Roy Jones, and I still say those people who gave him 11 rounds were smoking crack.

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Until he got cut, Jones was giving Calzaghe all he could handle. Jones was tagging with right hands constantly. If Jones would have put it all out on the line after he hurt Calzaghe, he might have stopped him. I was sitting surrounded by Calzaghe fans and not of them would deny that a young Roy would have destroyed Calzaghe after seeing how close it was against a shot Roy Jones.

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I agree with you that a young Jones beats any version of Calzaghe, but I think you were watching a different fight if you actually think Jones was ever in anyway 'In' the fight that actually happend.

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Agreed. I didn't think Jones won a round after the first.

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Originally Posted by bzkfn

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

Until he got cut, Jones was giving Calzaghe all he could handle. Jones was tagging with right hands constantly. If Jones would have put it all out on the line after he hurt Calzaghe, he might have stopped him. I was sitting surrounded by Calzaghe fans and not of them would deny that a young Roy would have destroyed Calzaghe after seeing how close it was against a shot Roy Jones.

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I agree with you that a young Jones beats any version of Calzaghe, but I think you were watching a different fight if you actually think Jones was ever in anyway 'In' the fight that actually happend.

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Agreed. I didn't think Jones won a round after the first.

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He lost 2 minutes 59 seconds of that round too ;D

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by bzkfn

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Originally Posted by BIG H

I agree with you that a young Jones beats any version of Calzaghe, but I think you were watching a different fight if you actually think Jones was ever in anyway 'In' the fight that actually happend.

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Agreed. I didn't think Jones won a round after the first.

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He lost 2 minutes 59 seconds of that round too ;D

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You're forgetting the count that Calzaghe took after the knockdown, so it was more like 2 minutes 53 seconds that he lost. ;D

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Originally Posted by Hunter

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

Calzaghe is an all time great, Kostya Tsyzu I don't think so.

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I dont consider Joe Cal an all time great but he is definitley closer than Kostya.

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Well, I have to disagree there, never lost, close to Marciano's record, schooled the Viking Kessler, which nobody has see coming (for the schooling, not the win), won against B-Hop... you have to place him with the all time greats even if might not be on the top of the top.

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

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Originally Posted by BIG H

I think beating Jeff Lacy, Mikkel Kessler, A still very good Bernard Hopkins, World champions such as Eubank, Woodhall, Reid, Mitchell & Brewer and remaining undefeated for 15 years would give you at least an equal claim as somebody who got banged out by a veteran Vince Philips ;)

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many think B-Hop beat him, Eubank was old and shot, many feel that even Reid beat Calzaghe, he remained undefeated for 15 yrs, cause he took on fighters like Peter Manfredo, and refused to take on the best while they were the best, for example Roy Jones, the bigger name, and Calzaghe didn't make an effort to get the fight until Jones was shot, hardly make Calzaghe an all time great

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Originally Posted by Hunter

I dont think either Joe Calzaghe or Kostya Tszyu are all time great fighters.

Discuss.

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same here, i'd say that both were the best in their respective divisions, but both had pretty weak divisions (and i'm saying this after re-watching and analysing most of Tszyu's big wins), both were very good fighters, i'd hardly say great

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Eubank had plenty left, he put on one of his best performances against JC and then stepped up 2 weight divisions and had 2 epic battles with Carl Thompson. I had JC beating Reid and Nard. As for JC not making the effort to get the Jones fight, don't het me started on the fights Jones should've had and didn't!

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Yes but the weight issue with Chris Eubank has to be brought up, i agree Chris Eubank still did have quite alot left and it was a good win for Joe Calzaghe. But still Chris Eubank was weight drained and no matter what anyone says that does take some credit away from Joe Calzaghe.

While we are talking about Chris Eubank vs Joe Calzaghe, does anyone else think Joe Calzaghe would of been knocked down if that right hand of Chris Eubank had landed earlier ?

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Originally Posted by Nameless

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Originally Posted by Hunter

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

Calzaghe is an all time great, Kostya Tsyzu I don't think so.

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I dont consider Joe Cal an all time great but he is definitley closer than Kostya.

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Well, I have to disagree there, never lost, close to Marciano's record, schooled the Viking Kessler, which nobody has see coming (for the schooling, not the win), won against B-Hop... you have to place him with the all time greats even if might not be on the top of the top.

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Yes i agree Mikkel Kessler is a good win on his belt, but Mikkel Kessler isn't as great as some people make out. He won IMO a very close decision to Anthony Mundine, which is his best win. A fighter that hasn't stepped up in class for years.

And to be honest the Super Middleweight is stronger now than it was a few years ago, when Mikkel Kessler was ruling. And Mikkel Kessler hasn't stepped up since losing to Joe Calzaghe. So we actually don't know how good Mikkel Kessler really is yet.

Because the only really elite opponent he has fought is Joe Calzaghe, Librado Andrade is a goodish fighter but is one dimensional, and Anthony Mundine is a good fighter. But not really elite either, and he hasn't stepped up in years.

I actually didn't think Joe Calzaghe beat Bernard Hopkins, i thought he lost by one point. Yes Bernard Hopkins is still very good at 43. But i have no doubt in my mind that the Bernard Hopkins, that took Glen Johnson apart, or took Felix Trinidad apart, would beat Joe Calzaghe IMO.

I think Joe Calzaghe is a very good champion, but despite all his achievements. I honestly just don't see him as an ATG. But thats just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by Nameless

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Originally Posted by Hunter

I dont consider Joe Cal an all time great but he is definitley closer than Kostya.

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Well, I have to disagree there, never lost, close to Marciano's record, schooled the Viking Kessler, which nobody has see coming (for the schooling, not the win), won against B-Hop... you have to place him with the all time greats even if might not be on the top of the top.

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Yes i agree Mikkel Kessler is a good win on his belt, but Mikkel Kessler isn't as great as some people make out. He won IMO a very close decision to Anthony Mundine, which is his best win. A fighter that hasn't stepped up in class for years.

And to be honest the Super Middleweight is stronger now than it was a few years ago, when Mikkel Kessler was ruling. And Mikkel Kessler hasn't stepped up since losing to Joe Calzaghe. So we actually don't know how good Mikkel Kessler really is yet.

Because the only really elite opponent he has fought is Joe Calzaghe, Librado Andrade is a goodish fighter but is one dimensional, and Anthony Mundine is a good fighter. But not really elite either, and he hasn't stepped up in years.

I actually didn't think Joe Calzaghe beat Bernard Hopkins, i thought he lost by one point. Yes Bernard Hopkins is still very good at 43. But i have no doubt in my mind that the Bernard Hopkins, that took Glen Johnson apart, or took Felix Trinidad apart, would beat Joe Calzaghe IMO.

I think Joe Calzaghe is a very good champion, but despite all his achievements. I honestly just don't see him as an ATG. But thats just my opinion.

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You may be right, but remember neith JC or Nard were at their peak. Picture the Hopkins you mention above against the Calzaghe that fought Lacy, that' a better comparison

Sorry, should have quoted. This is in reply to ICB's post about Kessler not being as good as people claim....

The thing is though thats how you stray into slagging off everyone territory. Theres always some reason to discredit anything or anyone.

Lacy WAS the man to beat, everyone wanted Joe to fight him, he did, and took him apart.

Kessler WAS the man to beat, everyone wanted Joe to fight him, he did and to a lesser extent gave him a boxing education too.



That, for me is more important than who their W's came againt and what has happened to them since.

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Originally Posted by boozeboxer

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Originally Posted by BIG H

I don't know anybody who's best win was against Jeff Lacy, so I can't comment ;D

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Well you see the point I was getting at here... ;)

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Are you dissing Manfredo again? We all know he was robbed.

People like you in their drunken haze forget that Manfredo destroyed the undefeated, World Ranked Joey Spina. (It's not a coincidence that Spina hasn't lost since the Manfredo beating).

If the Calzaghe fight hadn't been stopped it is common knowledge that Manfredo would have broken Joe's hands with his face.

All hail Peter - let's stop this hating.;D

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Originally Posted by Memphis

Sorry, should have quoted. This is in reply to ICB's post about Kessler not being as good as people claim....

The thing is though thats how you stray into slagging off everyone territory. Theres always some reason to discredit anything or anyone.

Lacy WAS the man to beat, everyone wanted Joe to fight him, he did, and took him apart.

Kessler WAS the man to beat, everyone wanted Joe to fight him, he did and to a lesser extent gave him a boxing education too.



That, for me is more important than who their W's came againt and what has happened to them since.

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I do agree with you in a way and i understand what your saying, but i see it slightly different to you. For example Jeff Lacy has now been proven as just hype and he wasn't half as good as the hype suggested. And now most of the boxing fans don't even consider it that much of a win alot of boxing fans judge that way aswell.

Now i think Mikkel Kessler is a good fighter and isn't just hype, but whatever he does from now on will affect Joe Calzaghe's win over Mikkel Kessler. Because Mikkel Kessler has actually only fought one really elite opponent, and he gave a good effort but was beaten convincingly.

Now that the Super Middleweight division is starting to become a hotter division, Mikkel Kessler hasn't stepped up and now im starting the question. How good Mikkel Kessler really is because he's best win is against Anthony Mundine a good fighter but certainly not elite.

And that win was no easy win either i only had Mikkel Kessler, winning by about 3 rounds at the most. Mikkel Kessler was a very good win for Joe Calzaghe and Joe Calzaghe does deserve credit, but like i said i would like to see how good Mikkel Kessler really is.

Do you see Joe Calzaghe as an ATG ? because i personally don't. Im not hating here but i've watched his fights i look at his record. And nothing stands out and says wow to me.