Re: How do Americans feel about the way Native Americans were treated?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CFH
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CGM
Not to diminish the way they were treated, and yes there is a ways to go yet, but a little research on recent land claim settlements in Canada will show that many are doing rather well. And the fact is that a lot of the reservations, at least along the border, are quite wealthy due to casinos, and the way the smuggling and contraband cigarette trade is carried out with umpunity. So it ain't all bad.
I would disagree strongly with that. I've studied a fair bit of First Nations-related things in school over the years and the vast majority of indigenous Canadians live at an economic level that is far below that of other Canadians. Some Casino's end up infusing money into a band, but quite often most of the incoming wealth goes to a few rather than to many. As for land claims, a few positive, limited settlements do not eradicate the all the outstanding issues. I can't speak with any personal experience regarding Ontario groups, but the ones around here a suffering quite badly. Around here, and everywhere else I have been in Canada, racism is rampant. It's almost matter of fact that Natives are looked down upon and sneered at because of the present-day effects of the European policies of assimilation and eradication. This country should be utterly ashamed of itself that with the massive wealth it produces (often from resources culled from traditional Native lands supposedly protected by long-standing treaties which were broken at will) it allows a segment of our population to suffer in the way it does and to live in 3rd World conditions, exposed to deadly diseases and social traumas that would not be allowed to exist elsewhere.
Indigenous people deserve self-government and they deserve land rights.
Disagree strongly with what actually? That some are doing well? I ain't saying all is roses, but it ain't all bad either. If you wanna see poor and downtrodden, you wanna see some of the poor people of all colors living way out on Queen West, or around Parliemant street. I'm saying overall it's a lot better than it used to be, and if we can't agree on that, well we'll have to disagree then. Frankly, I think your hand wringing and proclamations of shame are a typical knee jerk reactions of many, and really not too helpful.
Re: How do Americans feel about the way Native Americans were treated?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Howlin Mad Missy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CFH
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Originally Posted by
AdamGB
Slightly different story there... struggling to see the relevance to this topic (or the harsh criticism you're reacting to for that matter)
To be fair, some connections (particularly in early American history) can be drawn between the two people and the way in which the British viewed them (I've heard credible arguments that assert the Irish were worse of than the Natives during the 16th/17th century), but by and the situations are pretty dissimilar.
Indeed we a had something of a war but I don't recall it being policy to infect them with smallpox. Hitler would have been proud. And yes I do believe it a genocide.
Whether or not Natives were ever intentionally infected with small-pox is a matter of scholarly debate. According to a professor of mine, who is an expert in early American history, there is only one primary source which describes such a event and it is far from an infallible one. The subject has come up a few times in classes I have had.
Furthermore, initially the Natives were seen as very child-like and uncivilized where as the Irish were seen almost as traitors and as such were treated much more harshly during that period.
Re: How do Americans feel about the way Native Americans were treated?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CGM
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CFH
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CGM
Not to diminish the way they were treated, and yes there is a ways to go yet, but a little research on recent land claim settlements in Canada will show that many are doing rather well. And the fact is that a lot of the reservations, at least along the border, are quite wealthy due to casinos, and the way the smuggling and contraband cigarette trade is carried out with umpunity. So it ain't all bad.
I would disagree strongly with that. I've studied a fair bit of First Nations-related things in school over the years and the vast majority of indigenous Canadians live at an economic level that is far below that of other Canadians. Some Casino's end up infusing money into a band, but quite often most of the incoming wealth goes to a few rather than to many. As for land claims, a few positive, limited settlements do not eradicate the all the outstanding issues. I can't speak with any personal experience regarding Ontario groups, but the ones around here a suffering quite badly. Around here, and everywhere else I have been in Canada, racism is rampant. It's almost matter of fact that Natives are looked down upon and sneered at because of the present-day effects of the European policies of assimilation and eradication. This country should be utterly ashamed of itself that with the massive wealth it produces (often from resources culled from traditional Native lands supposedly protected by long-standing treaties which were broken at will) it allows a segment of our population to suffer in the way it does and to live in 3rd World conditions, exposed to deadly diseases and social traumas that would not be allowed to exist elsewhere.
Indigenous people deserve self-government and they deserve land rights.
Disagree strongly with what actually? That some are doing well? I ain't saying all is roses, but it ain't all bad either. If you wanna see poor and downtrodden, you wanna see some of the poor people of all colors living way out on Queen West, or around Parliemant street. I'm saying overall it's a lot better than it used to be, and if we can't agree on that, well we'll have to disagree then. Frankly, I think your hand wringing and proclamations of shame are a typical knee jerk reactions of many, and really not too helpful.
I don't mean to be overly offensive, but you don't know jack shit about this subject. Of course there are downtrodden urban poor, no shit, but a disproportionate number of those people are of First Nation or Metis descent. I've spent a small amount of time on the Downtown Eastside, the worst neighborhood in Canada, and I've done a lot of research on the area for a variety of classes, some of them medically-based, and the numbers of indigenous people living in those conditions are very disproportionate and is a direct result of intentional government policy.
My "hand-wringing and knee-jerk reaction" (what was at all knee-jerk about my reply) are a result of study and knowledge surrounding the subject and the history of First Nation people in Canada's, as opposed to speculative observations like "they smuggle cigarette and grow dope so they must be doing ok...". They are also views held by many people much more intelligent and knowledge than you or I, including many indigenous scholars.
Ignoring the facts and continuing with baseless and uneducated assumptions are far more harmful than any perspective I have.
Re: How do Americans feel about the way Native Americans were treated?
Interesting topic. I've never really thought of or really been aware of the Native American situation in Canada. And its really strange to see CGM and CFH disagree so strongly. My great grandmother was 1/2 Cherokee so my mother's family has a lot of ties to Native American culture. I think the treatment of the Tribes in the US is largely glossed over in the name of progress and manifest destiny. I'd like to think that with the ability to go back in time we could find another solution but I doubt it. Maybe a slightly more humane way but it would have been hard to reconcile the steady march of the US across the continent no matter what. The tribes in the US have come along way with the Gov't doing a lot of things to help. That being said there is still a lot of poverty. At some point a group has to decide to step up and make their own solutions regardless of the historical hardships. In summation I find the historical treatment of the US Natives horrible but not sure at this point what else can be done to rectify the situation by the Federal and State governments.
Re: How do Americans feel about the way Native Americans were treated?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CFH
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Howlin Mad Missy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CFH
To be fair, some connections (particularly in early American history) can be drawn between the two people and the way in which the British viewed them (I've heard credible arguments that assert the Irish were worse of than the Natives during the 16th/17th century), but by and the situations are pretty dissimilar.
Indeed we a had something of a war but I don't recall it being policy to infect them with smallpox. Hitler would have been proud. And yes I do believe it a genocide.
Whether or not Natives were ever intentionally infected with small-pox is a matter of scholarly debate. According to a professor of mine, who is an expert in early American history, there is only one primary source which describes such a event and it is far from an infallible one. The subject has come up a few times in classes I have had.
Furthermore, initially the Natives were seen as very child-like and uncivilized where as the Irish were seen almost as traitors and as such were treated much more harshly during that period.
Um, don't think so....The Irish are still in Ireland aren't they? (& several claiming to be in NY)
There is documented discussion and acknowledgement of deliberately infecting the native.
Whether this was sanctioned at the highest level is unproven....but then again the only written 'evidence' of the final solution was the Wansee conference and that mainly talks about resettlement.
Of course Eichmans testamony fills in the gaps...
Re: How do Americans feel about the way Native Americans were treated?
Missy the indians didn't have the same immune system as the europeans ergo they were more apt to have a tough time with small pox, etc. so maybe there were times the indians just got sick just because...I'm not saying the europeans never had the intention of doing evil to the indians, I'm just saying they probably killed their fair share without even trying.
Also I think it's a pretty fair assumption that if the indians had better weapons they would have killed off more Europeans and perhaps even gotten them out of the America's all together. I believe the vikings were held off by the indians.
I don't feel guilty about what happened with the Indians because I wasn't there, I had no part in it. Maybe I seem callous, but when hostile takeovers and "total war' were the norm of the day the plight of the north american indian is no different than the plight of many other indiginous peoples of that era.
Re: How do Americans feel about the way Native Americans were treated?
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Originally Posted by
Lyle
Quote:
Originally Posted by
porkypara
How do Imigrant Americans feel about the way the Native Americans have been treated over the years?
.....I think they got it a lot better than what the Spanish gave the Native Mexicans.....why the fuck does America always get the finger pointed at us?!?!?! How are the Aborigines treated by the Aussies now to this day??? And on another note how did you Brits treat the Irish???
Sure the Indians got a raw deal, most native peoples did...doesn't make it right, but that is what happened in those times all around the world, doesn't make it better, but that was the norm of the day
Calm down,Calm down(scouse accent).O0
Dont burst a blood vessel.:o
Re: How do Americans feel about the way Native Americans were treated?
...I just don't like it when people act like America invented violence towards indigenous peoples and racism and slavery and all the evils of the world. And although it wasn't specifically stated, the implication irks me just as much
Historically the past isn't a kind point in time
Re: How do Americans feel about the way Native Americans were treated?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lyle
...I just don't like it when people act like America invented violence towards indigenous peoples and racism and slavery and all the evils of the world. And although it wasn't specifically stated, the implication irks me just as much
Historically the past isn't a kind point in time
I have not read in great detail but I dont think anybody has mentioned American violence towards indigenous people in this thread.
I think most western countrys have examples of great shame in there history and America is no different.
You seem to want to almost wash your hands of your history as if it did not happen.
For what its worth Britain has got a lot of blood on its hands this is a fact that I accept and regret but dont try and brush under the carpet.
Re: How do Americans feel about the way Native Americans were treated?
Shameful.Kills me when there is such an uproar about immigration today...Illegal.Immagine if they had the guns and we did not.
Re: How do Americans feel about the way Native Americans were treated?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Shameful.Kills me when there is such an uproar about immigration today...Illegal.Immagine if they had the guns and we did not.
Sorry if I am being a bit stupid but I am not quiet sure what you mean by that.:p
Can you expand.;D
Re: How do Americans feel about the way Native Americans were treated?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
porkypara
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lyle
...I just don't like it when people act like America invented violence towards indigenous peoples and racism and slavery and all the evils of the world. And although it wasn't specifically stated, the implication irks me just as much
Historically the past isn't a kind point in time
I have not read in great detail but I dont think anybody has mentioned American violence towards indigenous people in this thread.
I think most western countrys have examples of great shame in there history and America is no different.
You seem to want to almost wash your hands of your history as if it did not happen.
For what its worth Britain has got a lot of blood on its hands this is a fact that I accept and regret but dont try and brush under the carpet.
I don't regret it because it had nothing to do with me.
All countries have fought, many countries had empires at one time of another, that's how business was handled, not many people seemed to question it at the time so I see little point applying modern morality upon another time.
Re: How do Americans feel about the way Native Americans were treated?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Howlin Mad Missy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
porkypara
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lyle
...I just don't like it when people act like America invented violence towards indigenous peoples and racism and slavery and all the evils of the world. And although it wasn't specifically stated, the implication irks me just as much
Historically the past isn't a kind point in time
I have not read in great detail but I dont think anybody has mentioned American violence towards indigenous people in this thread.
I think most western countrys have examples of great shame in there history and America is no different.
You seem to want to almost wash your hands of your history as if it did not happen.
For what its worth Britain has got a lot of blood on its hands this is a fact that I accept and regret but dont try and brush under the carpet.
I don't regret it because it had nothing to do with me.
All countries have fought, many countries had empires at one time of another, that's how business was handled, not many people seemed to question it at the time so I see little point applying modern morality upon another time.
A better way of saying it is that I am not proud of what all britain has done in its past in relations to other countries.
Re: How do Americans feel about the way Native Americans were treated?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Howlin Mad Missy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CFH
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Howlin Mad Missy
Indeed we a had something of a war but I don't recall it being policy to infect them with smallpox. Hitler would have been proud. And yes I do believe it a genocide.
Whether or not Natives were ever intentionally infected with small-pox is a matter of scholarly debate. According to a professor of mine, who is an expert in early American history, there is only one primary source which describes such a event and it is far from an infallible one. The subject has come up a few times in classes I have had.
Furthermore, initially the Natives were seen as very child-like and uncivilized where as the Irish were seen almost as traitors and as such were treated much more harshly during that period.
Um, don't think so....The Irish are still in Ireland aren't they? (& several claiming to be in NY)
There is documented discussion and acknowledgement of deliberately infecting the native.
Whether this was sanctioned at the highest level is unproven....but then again the only written 'evidence' of the final solution was the Wansee conference and that mainly talks about resettlement.
Of course Eichmans testamony fills in the gaps...
What does that have to do with anything? The fact is the Irish were treated brutally during a time in which the Indigenous peoples of North America were not. I never said anything about the Irish being iradicated.
As for the smallpox, it is still a matter of debate. From what I know, there is some evidence that indicates it may have been done or may have been considered, but there is no proof that it ever actually took place (again, from what I know).
Re: How do Americans feel about the way Native Americans were treated?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
porkypara
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Shameful.Kills me when there is such an uproar about immigration today...Illegal.Immagine if they had the guns and we did not.
Sorry if I am being a bit stupid but I am not quiet sure what you mean by that.:p
Can you expand.;D
He's talking about white Americans being upset about illegal immigration these days, they're taking our country away, etc., etc., which I'm sure native Americans do find kind of funny.
I've always thought the whole topic was strangely glossed over, its an ugly ugly history for sure, but slavery and civil rights probably took some of the attention away from it.
