Re: Is Nonito Donaire really the 6th best boxer in the world??
Ah FINALLY somebody else agrees with on this!. Nonito has done NOTHING to merit p4p status, he's beaten a guy in Darchinyan who is probably on the level of a Humberto Soto, a guy that Juan Guzman beat with ease.
Comparing the rest of Guzman's career to Donaires there is no comparison, Donaire has fought NOBODY!!! He almost got beat last time out by a 13-3-1 club fighter.
He's not even top 20 p4p, and will fall faster than you can say 'Mijares' when he actually fights somebody half decent.
As Johnny Perez has now beaten the man who beat the man who the man beat surely he should be p4p top 5 now right?
It's fucking ludicrous and I will tell you why this happens. It's positive discrimination in which the Ring Magazine openly gives benefits to the midgets in their p4p rankings.......
Re: Is Nonito Donaire really the 6th best boxer in the world??
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Ah FINALLY somebody else agrees with on this!. Nonito has done NOTHING to merit p4p status, he's beaten a guy in Darchinyan who is probably on the level of a Humberto Soto, a guy that Juan Guzman beat with ease.
Comparing the rest of Guzman's career to Donaires there is no comparison, Donaire has fought NOBODY!!! He almost got beat last time out by a 13-3-1 club fighter.
He's not even top 20 p4p, and will fall faster than you can say 'Mijares' when he actually fights somebody half decent.
As Johnny Perez has now beaten the man who beat the man who the man beat surely he should be p4p top 5 now right?
It's fucking ludicrous and I will tell you why this happens. It's positive discrimination in which the Ring Magazine openly gives benefits to the midgets in their p4p rankings.......
Darchinyan is nowhere near as good as Soto imo, Soto has just had a tougher road to the top & Guzman was a bad style matchup.
I disagree with your last bit (c'mon Bilbo you know I have to), but you're right Donaire has done little to justify his placement on the list & if we are doing it purely off talent as Taeth suggests, I gave a list of fighters at least some of whom are more talented. Are we really saying that only Mayweather, Pacquiao, Mosley, Hopkins & Marquez are better fighters?
Re: Is Nonito Donaire really the 6th best boxer in the world??
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JazMerkin
Just was looking at the Pound For Pound rankings on The Ring & saw that Donaire is #6 :o
The Ring Pound For Pound Ratings
I mean seriously, he's a good fighter, but he's only got one worthy name on there in Darchinyan & even he isn't that good.
The problem I have with this is however you look at it, there are plenty of guys who should be above him.
If it's on resume, Cotto, Dawson, Williams, Chris John, both Klitschkos & Arthur Abraham all trump him.
If it's on talent Hasegawa, Cotto, Dawson, Williams, Wlad Klitschko, Abraham, Kessler, Calderon, Caballero & Roman Gonzalez are all better.
Can you really have this high because people thought Vic was p4p at one point & he beat him?
I mean he's good, probably Top 20, but no way is he the 6th best fighter in the world.
No, and Paul Williams shouldn't be in the top ten either.
Re: Is Nonito Donaire really the 6th best boxer in the world??
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hfahrenheit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JazMerkin
Just was looking at the Pound For Pound rankings on The Ring & saw that Donaire is #6 :o
The Ring Pound For Pound Ratings
I mean seriously, he's a good fighter, but he's only got one worthy name on there in Darchinyan & even he isn't that good.
The problem I have with this is however you look at it, there are plenty of guys who should be above him.
If it's on resume, Cotto, Dawson, Williams, Chris John, both Klitschkos & Arthur Abraham all trump him.
If it's on talent Hasegawa, Cotto, Dawson, Williams, Wlad Klitschko, Abraham, Kessler, Calderon, Caballero & Roman Gonzalez are all better.
Can you really have this high because people thought Vic was p4p at one point & he beat him?
I mean he's good, probably Top 20, but no way is he the 6th best fighter in the world.
No, and Paul Williams shouldn't be in the top ten either.
How is Williams not p4p 10?
He's a two weight, three time world champ and has wins over two former p4p top 10 guys in Margarito and Winky (actually Winky was top 5 not too long ago).
How many fighters have done more than him? Dawson should be top 10 too.
Re: Is Nonito Donaire really the 6th best boxer in the world??
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hfahrenheit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JazMerkin
Just was looking at the Pound For Pound rankings on The Ring & saw that Donaire is #6 :o
The Ring Pound For Pound Ratings
I mean seriously, he's a good fighter, but he's only got one worthy name on there in Darchinyan & even he isn't that good.
The problem I have with this is however you look at it, there are plenty of guys who should be above him.
If it's on resume, Cotto, Dawson, Williams, Chris John, both Klitschkos & Arthur Abraham all trump him.
If it's on talent Hasegawa, Cotto, Dawson, Williams, Wlad Klitschko, Abraham, Kessler, Calderon, Caballero & Roman Gonzalez are all better.
Can you really have this high because people thought Vic was p4p at one point & he beat him?
I mean he's good, probably Top 20, but no way is he the 6th best fighter in the world.
No, and Paul Williams shouldn't be in the top ten either.
How is Williams not p4p 10?
He's a two weight, three time world champ and has wins over two former p4p top 10 guys in Margarito and Winky (actually Winky was top 5 not too long ago).
How many fighters have done more than him? Dawson should be top 10 too.
Yep, Winky sure was at the top of the boxing World when he fought Williams...
And Margarito, that fight happened two and half years ago... why shouldn't that be include in a current p4p ranking, it's a perfect barometer for how a fighter's doing CURRENTLY.
And Freddie Roach is right too--Amir Khan is the 10 best fighter in the World.
No sense in arguing any of that.
Re: Is Nonito Donaire really the 6th best boxer in the world??
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hfahrenheit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hfahrenheit
No, and Paul Williams shouldn't be in the top ten either.
How is Williams not p4p 10?
He's a two weight, three time world champ and has wins over two former p4p top 10 guys in Margarito and Winky (actually Winky was top 5 not too long ago).
How many fighters have done more than him? Dawson should be top 10 too.
Yep, Winky sure was at the top of the boxing World when he fought Williams...
And Margarito, that fight happened two and half years ago... why shouldn't that be include in a current p4p ranking, it's a perfect barometer for how a fighter's doing CURRENTLY.
And Freddie Roach is right too--Amir Khan is the 10 best fighter in the World.
No sense in arguing any of that.
in Williams' defense he was set to fight Pavlik, but Kelly pussied out, and well now he's fighting Martinez which is still a top opponent and a tough fight, it's a bigger risk than anything Donaire has taken
Re: Is Nonito Donaire really the 6th best boxer in the world??
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ElTerribleMorales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hfahrenheit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
How is Williams not p4p 10?
He's a two weight, three time world champ and has wins over two former p4p top 10 guys in Margarito and Winky (actually Winky was top 5 not too long ago).
How many fighters have done more than him? Dawson should be top 10 too.
Yep, Winky sure was at the top of the boxing World when he fought Williams...
And Margarito, that fight happened two and half years ago... why shouldn't that be include in a current p4p ranking, it's a perfect barometer for how a fighter's doing CURRENTLY.
And Freddie Roach is right too--Amir Khan is the 10th best fighter in the World.
No sense in arguing any of that.
in Williams' defense he was set to fight Pavlik, but Kelly pussied out, and well now he's fighting Martinez which is still a top opponent and a tough fight, it's a bigger risk than anything Donaire has taken
Just for clarity, I happen to think Williams is a good boxer.
BUT, just because people are ducking you, doesn't mean you deserve a p4p ranking. You still have to go win those fights--despite any circumstance, you cannot be awarded status biased on hyperbole or conjecture.
Re: Is Nonito Donaire really the 6th best boxer in the world??
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hfahrenheit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ElTerribleMorales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hfahrenheit
Yep, Winky sure was at the top of the boxing World when he fought Williams...
And Margarito, that fight happened two and half years ago... why shouldn't that be include in a current p4p ranking, it's a perfect barometer for how a fighter's doing CURRENTLY.
And Freddie Roach is right too--Amir Khan is the 10th best fighter in the World.
No sense in arguing any of that.
in Williams' defense he was set to fight Pavlik, but Kelly pussied out, and well now he's fighting Martinez which is still a top opponent and a tough fight, it's a bigger risk than anything Donaire has taken
Just for clarity, I happen to think Williams is a good boxer.
BUT, just because people are ducking you, doesn't mean you deserve a p4p ranking. You still have to go win those fights--despite any circumstance, you cannot be awarded status biased on hyperbole or conjecture.
oh i agree, i'm just saying that Williams is at least making more of an effort than Donaire to go and get the big names, or at least the dangerous fights that make you p4p one of the best in the world, Williams going after Pavlik and now Martinez proves that he's at least making the effort, but i agree that he could easily be replaced on a current p4p list, but you can at least make a case for him being on the list, something you can't really do for Donaire
Re: Is Nonito Donaire really the 6th best boxer in the world??
Taeth is right.
The emphasis should be on skill not records. Some fighters never even get the chance to fight a "star" fighter (beat a "star" you fly into the P4P without fail) simply because they are avoidable (don't make money sense).
Weight-classes fluctuate constantly. One minute a particular division is dynamite the next it's average.
Guzman is the best current example. There's no way half the current top ten would even live with him. But he can't be ranked because he doesn't have a "great" or current "star" name on his resume.
Re: Is Nonito Donaire really the 6th best boxer in the world??
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hfahrenheit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hfahrenheit
No, and Paul Williams shouldn't be in the top ten either.
How is Williams not p4p 10?
He's a two weight, three time world champ and has wins over two former p4p top 10 guys in Margarito and Winky (actually Winky was top 5 not too long ago).
How many fighters have done more than him? Dawson should be top 10 too.
Yep, Winky sure was at the top of the boxing World when he fought Williams...
And Margarito, that fight happened two and half years ago... why shouldn't that be include in a current p4p ranking, it's a perfect barometer for how a fighter's doing CURRENTLY.
And Freddie Roach is right too--Amir Khan is the 10 best fighter in the World.
No sense in arguing any of that.
Hmm ok then so let's use YOUR logic to assess the rest of the p4p guys.
How many fights has Floyd won in the past 2 years? How many fighters has he fought in his own weight class in that time?
What about B Hop, I think he's 1-1 in that time?
Cotto? He's gone 2-1 with many thinking he should be 1-2.
I guess JM Marquez should be dropped from the list altogether as his last fight he lost every single round right?
Williams is easily one of the most significant fighters in boxing today, a menace from 147-160. He's been trying to get the big fights, Pavlik pulled out now he's going after Martinez, this guy brings the fans what they want and is actually trying to unify divisions.
Compare that with Floyd, two years off, and only fights guys two weight classes below him.
B Hop, one fight ever couple years, no interest in unifying any divisions, just wants handpicked fights for money.
Cotto, hasn't won a significant fight in a couple years.
Caballero, he's done more than Williams, really?
Donaire? Ok I'll give you him, his win over Darchinyan was immense, no doubting his pedigree.
By the way I'm not slating any of the fighters above, I think (Donaire aside) they all deserve p4p status, but Williams has proven himself repeatedly and absolutely deserves to be there.
Let me ask you, how many other current fighters are there who won weight classes in two weight divisions, then moved up to a third and beat one of the best in that division of the best decade?
Of those fighters how many arn't p4p?
Re: Is Nonito Donaire really the 6th best boxer in the world??
Doniare certainly has the skill to belong where he is ranked but I understand the point of the thread as in the aspect on what has he really done?
Taeth put across the most valid point and that is judging by skill possesed by a fighter and skill wise Doniare is a qualified top 10 P4P canidate but again so are so many other guys.
\
When it comes to who guys fight today it is so complicated to judge it by resume alone because everyone on top seems to fight so in-often and they seem to have soo many other issues with promoters etc.
Thats why the P4P list is more or less a myth
Re: Is Nonito Donaire really the 6th best boxer in the world??
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Taeth is right.
The emphasis should be on skill not records. Some fighters never even get the chance to fight a "star" fighter (beat a "star" you fly into the P4P without fail) simply because they are avoidable (don't make money sense).
Weight-classes fluctuate constantly. One minute a particular division is dynamite the next it's average.
Guzman is the best current example. There's no way half the current top ten would even live with him. But he can't be ranked because he doesn't have a "great" or current "star" name on his resume.
Taeth is dead wrong imo. P4P should be based on acomplishment not personal preference and subjective analysis.
Guzman I believe is a top 10 fighter for sure, does he deserve to be p4p though? I don't think so, he hasn't beaten a marquee fighter yet, and he's had chances to put always finds a way to pull out of the fight.
Plus, and this is important, skills are only ONE part of a fighter assessment. Many better boxers have lost to 'inferior' fighters by being outworked, beaten up, outhustled, knocked out etc.
Just by being skilled doesn't mean you will win all your fights.
Christian Mijares anybody?
Re: Is Nonito Donaire really the 6th best boxer in the world??
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Taeth is right.
The emphasis should be on skill not records. Some fighters never even get the chance to fight a "star" fighter (beat a "star" you fly into the P4P without fail) simply because they are avoidable (don't make money sense).
Weight-classes fluctuate constantly. One minute a particular division is dynamite the next it's average.
Guzman is the best current example. There's no way half the current top ten would even live with him. But he can't be ranked because he doesn't have a "great" or current "star" name on his resume.
or it could be due to the fact that he hasn't done jack shit since beating Humberto Soto in 2007, who you fight defines how good you are, boxing isn't just skill, it's mental toughness as well, who's to say Guzman won't fold against elite opposition, he already bailed out of his biggest fight against Campbell, same thing can be said for Donaire, who (although early in his career) has already been beaten
Re: Is Nonito Donaire really the 6th best boxer in the world??
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ElTerribleMorales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Taeth is right.
The emphasis should be on skill not records. Some fighters never even get the chance to fight a "star" fighter (beat a "star" you fly into the P4P without fail) simply because they are avoidable (don't make money sense).
Weight-classes fluctuate constantly. One minute a particular division is dynamite the next it's average.
Guzman is the best current example. There's no way half the current top ten would even live with him. But he can't be ranked because he doesn't have a "great" or current "star" name on his resume.
or it could be due to the fact that he hasn't done jack shit since beating Humberto Soto in 2007, who you fight defines how good you are, boxing isn't just skill, it's mental toughness as well, who's to say Guzman won't fold against elite opposition, he already bailed out of his biggest fight against Campbell, same thing can be said for Donaire, who (although early in his career) has already been beaten
Exactly, skill doesnt automatically mean a fighter will win fights. It's just one part of a boxers makeup. To award fighters with p4p status purely because they possess skill is as flawed as saying Mike Tyson is the greatest ever because he knocked out B level fighters better than anyone else in history.
A fan like Taeth would likely look down his nose at somebody who judged a fighter soley by punching power and point out there are other attributes.
Well, its the same with skill.........
Re: Is Nonito Donaire really the 6th best boxer in the world??
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Taeth is right.
The emphasis should be on skill not records. Some fighters never even get the chance to fight a "star" fighter (beat a "star" you fly into the P4P without fail) simply because they are avoidable (don't make money sense).
Weight-classes fluctuate constantly. One minute a particular division is dynamite the next it's average.
Guzman is the best current example. There's no way half the current top ten would even live with him. But he can't be ranked because he doesn't have a "great" or current "star" name on his resume.
Taeth is dead wrong imo. P4P should be based on acomplishment not personal preference and subjective analysis.
Guzman I believe is a top 10 fighter for sure, does he deserve to be p4p though? I don't think so, he hasn't beaten a marquee fighter yet, and he's had chances to put always finds a way to pull out of the fight.
Plus, and this is important, skills are only ONE part of a fighter assessment. Many better boxers have lost to 'inferior' fighters by being outworked, beaten up, outhustled, knocked out etc.
Just by being skilled doesn't mean you will win all your fights.
Christian Mijares anybody?
So a guy with obvious skill/talent that operates in a weaker division, or can not get the top names in his division, gets overlooked P4P by a tough fighter in a strong divison.
Carl Froch should have more claims of being P4P than Guzman because he beat a "star" in Taylor, and backed it up with a win over a possible "star" in Dirrell?
