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I think Amat has a point. I mean when you're fighting a war the other side are by definition 'the enemy', and you're unlikely to view them with a great deal of compassion.Quote:
Originally Posted by amat
I mean some little twats threw a small stone through my open bedroom window a few weeks ago just missing my laptop screen and I'd have happily seen them opened up and gutted for it.
If one of them fired a mortar and killed my buddy I would want to rain down fiery death on all hoodies.
Disagree. They couldn't wait to open fire. Backed up by the fact that you can hear one of them saying 'come let me shoot' and 'look at those dead bastards'.Quote:
Originally Posted by amat
I fail to see why somebody would casually set up an RPG while an attack helicopter is patrolling the sky above them. And if soldiers are mistaking weapons for photography equipment surely you have to question their place in the military in the first place.
The worst part is the part where they shoot at the van containing children. It makes me sick when one of the troops says 'you shouldn't bring kids to a warzone', quite clearly forgetting the fact that it's only a warzone because you invaded the fucking country. It's also worth noting that its illegal to shoot at somebody who's moving an injured person out of a warzone and it's a war crime to kill somebody who is wounded and crawling away from the area of conflict.
Just out of interest this is what the American military said in response to the incident at the time...
The American military said in a statement late Thursday that 11 people had been killed: nine insurgents and two civilians. According to the statement, American troops were conducting a raid when they were hit by small-arms fire and rocket-propelled grenades. The American troops called in reinforcements and attack helicopters. In the ensuing fight, the statement said, the two Reuters employees and nine insurgents were killed.
"There is no question that coalition forces were clearly engaged in combat operations against a hostile force," said Lt. Col. Scott Bleichwehl, a spokesman for the multinational forces in Baghdad.
I hope they throw the book at those responsible.
I get sick of the 'war is tough' argument to excuse whatever a soldier does. Do we excuse the 9/11 hijackers because they felt they were in a war?
The first part shooting at the journalists and the others is wrong, but understandable to a point in context. However, the shoot-up of the van has no excuse. There is literally no justification for that & anyone who tries to is imo an idiot. There were no weapons there & they were just collecting the wounded. It seemed like those guys thought they were playing Call Of Duty or something, there was so little compassion there. It should however be pointed out that the US soldiers on the ground did show it, rushing to get the children to hospital.
It really makes you think about all those times you hear of 'insurgents' being killed. We just happened to see the video this time.
My immediate reaction was to question how frequent this sort of thing happens. I mean this one was only brought to our attention because two Reuters reporters were murdered.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin
It's an awful thing, but I'm not really in much of a position to judge and I doubt that very many of you are either.
These men are mentally conditioned into a certain mind set... one I doubt you can comprehend unless you've been in it.
I have mates who've been over in Afghan and Iraq, when they come back it takes weeks for them to adjust... you can see it when you go out with them into a club or a bar... everything is a possible threat to them. Completely on edge.
Shit... I've heard their storys... when they've been out on patrol, you're in a convoy and you don't know if the woman in a Burkah crossing the road infront of you with what appears to be a pram is doing just that - or whether she's taking her time to halt the convoy so that the houses you're driving past full of people who hate you can fire RPG you. Every time the convoy stops must be sickening
You don't know if a guy is just dialing a number on his mobile phone or if he's arming an IED planted in the spot you're about to walk over.
The suicide bombers used to just try and walk up to check points and get as close as possible before detonating, the warnings and distance tolerance have gotten so low that now they just strap up on a bike and whack the accelarator... my mates lucky a guy managed to hit the front tyre when he was at a checkpoint... only way to stop the bike without blowing the fucker up and setting off the bomb.
Until I've had to face down somebody who doesn't understand me walking towards me... not knowing whether I'm about to gun down an innocent man who doesn't know he's not meant to be here or whether he wants to blow my face off I'm not going to nor could I judge any of the soldiers over there.
Not only are the conditioned to act and think in a certain way, ignoring or eliminating other thought processes but I imagine it doesn't take long being exposed to that sort of enviroment to completely transform inside of your head.
It's a bit far fetched to compare mistakenly shooting at some people you perceived as a threat to you/your comrades to deliberately flying jetliners into two skyscrapers full that you KNEW were office workers - not soldiers.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin
I don't see the double standard.
The lack of compassion is disturbing though, which is the point I'm making - to my knowledge none of us have been in or been conditioned to function in a warzone.
I think it is disgusting, but not all that surprising. This is a nation that invades countries illegally and tortures people after all. It's no great surprise that a sizeable proportion of the troops are dumb, immature, brainwashed, gung-ho morons, who imagine themselves inside some kind of 'fun' computer game. I would shoot each one in the head as punishment and let that be that oh, and maybe shoot a few of their kids. :rolleyes:
Kirkland makes the good point about the US media not really tackling the issue. TBH I really don't think America has a properly functioning media at all. And that is sad because everybody should be informed about pertinent issues. It's all out there on the web though if you are willing to look for it, but to rely on mainstream US sources is just a dead end.
Are you serious with why would they be carrying an RPG in the open, why would they have AK's slung over the shoulders in the open? Is that disputed?
I suggest everyone read Adam's post. I've never been to war, I've done extensive reading and community work with soldiers at the Peace and Justice Center with Elizabeth Stinson, she's got over 1000 soldiers out of their military contracts since the Iraq war started because of their psychological damage caused by the war. Kids not to much older then me crying because they have blood on their hands.
It's the whole system, the wheel turns and they are just the cogs who end up getting grinded down and eventually just discarded without any thought. I really urge people to just try to put yourselves in their shoes. Not a single person here would be the same person after going into combat, not a single one of us. Some of those guys in the chopper would have been disgusted by this 10 years ago, guaranteed. There's only so much the human mind can handle.
The soldier never gets a single say in things when it comes to war, in the case of this war it was pretty much orchestrated by civilians in the White House, the military had to fight for everything it got and that wasn't close to enough. It's horrible I admit and very sad but shit they have guys on the ground isolated and these guys are walking around with AK's in the open, I'd be begging to shoot too. So would a lot of you guys, don't judge you'll be better off for it.
I've never been on a battlefield of war either, but I do know people that have. And in these types of situations they tell me one has to make a split second decision. It's real easy being an armchair critic watching a vid on the internet from the comforts of one's own home and saying this or that should have been done.Quote:
Originally Posted by amat
First of all i'd never put myself in a position where i'd have to be prepared to kill somebody in the name of 'freedom and democracy'. So while i understand the fact that soldiers don't have any say in what they have to do in respect to following orders, i don't really have any sympathy in the sense that, no matter how you dress it up, they have chosen that lifestyle. I take on board that many soldiers join the military without ever believing they will have to go to a conflict zone, but at some point, responsibility has to be taken by the soldiers, as having to kill another human being is at some point going to be a possibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by amat
Secondly, this isn't really a war. It's more of an invasion. That sticks in my throat more than anything, and the comment made by one of the gunmen "You shouldn't bring kids to a warzone" really irks me, considering it's only a warzone because you're there firing at insurgents civilians, in a country you have no real business being in.
The idea of the gunmen being merely mistaken went out of the window when they shot at the people helping the wounded guy - The van with the kids in it.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGBIt's a bit far fetched to compare mistakenly shooting at some people you perceived as a threat to you/your comrades to deliberately flying jetliners into two skyscrapers full that you KNEW were office workers - not soldiers.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin
I don't see the double standard.
The lack of compassion is disturbing though, which is the point I'm making - to my knowledge none of us have been in or been conditioned to function in a warzone.
Triggy happy gunmen who've played too much Call of Duty sprung to mind. It makes you wonder how often this sort of thing happens. Not just by the US military mind.
Well said. :appl:Quote:
Originally Posted by onoFirst of all i'd never put myself in a position where i'd have to be prepared to kill somebody in the name of 'freedom and democracy'. So while i understand the fact that soldiers don't have any say in what they have to do in respect to following orders, i don't really have any sympathy in the sense that, no matter how you dress it up, they have chosen that lifestyle. I take on board that many soldiers join the military without ever believing they will have to go to a conflict zone, but at some point, responsibility has to be taken by the soldiers, as having to kill another human being is at some point going to be a possibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by amat
Secondly, this isn't really a war. It's more of an invasion. That sticks in my throat more than anything, and the comment made by one of the gunmen "You shouldn't bring kids to a warzone" really irks me, considering it's only a warzone because you're there firing at insurgents civilians, in a country you have no real business being in.
Position of war or not:
1) the guys in the van were with children and were only collected wounded, no weapons seen in their carrying neither any hint of hostile intentions (except if you suggest that collecting wounded is hostile intentions), especially in a country where civilians try to help each others as much as possible because often, it's the only way to survive (especially when there is like suicide attack with 50 wounded and not enough ambulances to haul them all).
2) in Iraq, a HUGE portion of civilians have ak-47, it is definitely not something uncommon and it has been that way even since the first gulf war, seeing one guy with a AK shouldn't be enough to justify shelling a group of peoples from the sky solely because of that with some 30 mm machine guns, just call the tanks or troops, they'll circle them, ask them to surrender and then you make an inspection.
3) Look at the whole way they react and talk, it is not war stress, they urge their commander for the right to open fire, mock the fact that tanks roll over bodies, they almost laugh because kids got caught in the whole thing, unacceptable.