Why do I keep hearing the same old refrain: "The heavyweight division has gone to hel

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Originally Posted by rjj tszyu

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Originally Posted by DaxxKahn

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Originally Posted by Dizaster

"Athletes not Slobs"... That sums it up...

The perception of boxing heavyweights in the past compared to now is night and day..
They used to be the pinnacle of athleticism.. They were feared wrecking machines.. The Heavyweight division was reserved for the elite with the biggest balls, and you'd have your head ripped off if you didn't belong there.. They trained as hard as Welterweights, and were respected by other boxers, training, and the public..... Rarely did they carry in 30 or 40 extra pounds of burger fat into the ring.. They would have been laughed out of their if they did...
When two top heavyweights met in the past, it was the equivalent of two colossal giants stepping in the ring together.. The best of the best. The savage of the most savage. Monster against Monster... Peak athlete against Peak athlete.. And their fights would go down in history as some of the greatest...

How many fights in the Heavyweight division of the last 10 years are going to go down in history as Classics for the future generations to look back on, and wish with all their heart that "Damn, I wish I was there for that fight"..??

I have no idea how anyone can say that the Heavyweight division is anything like that of even 15 years ago.... The money could still be HUGE for the heavyweight division if it had the characters and athletes there to draw the general public into its drama... But it just doesn't.. It doesn't have those savage, wrecking ball animals who inspire fear, awe, and respect from everyone around them....

It mostly just has boxers who are too big or fat, or both, to fight in lower divisions where unless you come in in the best shape of your freakin life, you may as well go home before the opening bell rings...

Sure there are good fighters in the HW division and you do see some good scraps.. But the HW division was never just about a good scrap.. You can see a good scrap at straw weight if that is all your looking for... The HW division was about awe for the absolute best of the best who left no pushup undone, no step of roadword not completed, and they came in like hungry, primed gladiators ready for war, while the whole world looked on with it's breath held...

You have to feel for the klitschko's who were just born 20 years to late.. They will be known for dominating the Heavyweight division, but won't have the glory of fighting in the Heavyweight division when it was the gladatorial battlefied that it was once known as..

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:appl: Best post of the thread

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I'll second that. Great post

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Absolutely. Dizaster beat me to the punch (no pun intended). I don't trash today's HWs because I'm stuck in some sort of time warp where I think only the Ali's, Foreman's and Tyson's were any good. I trash them because they're by and large a bunch of fat slobs who don't train well enough to even LOOK like professional athletes, and come in with that hope that one big punch can translate into an easy title. The hell with the bunch of them!

Lyle, you kill me. We share a sense of humour. Tony Two Ton Galento. I love it. Thank you for reminding me of Tony Galento.

Two Ton Tony Galento is the perfect example for the points I am trying to make on this thread. Tony was an honoured member of the "Bum of the Month Club". But no doubt he could fight. Shook up Louis bad in the first round and knocked him down in the 3rd. Tony also gave one of my favourite champs Max Baer a fight. Those are good videos to watch.

I bring up Tony because certain fighters have been criticized on this site for loving burgers and fries. Well, criticism like that's just down-right un-American, ain't it? Now Tony, he was a real American. Here's a quote from an article about Tony's training regime:

Training

Galento, who claimed to be 5'9 (177 cm) tall, liked to weigh in at about 235 lb (107 kg) for his matches. He achieved this level of fitness by eating whatever, whenever he wanted. A typical meal for Galento consisted of six chickens, a side of spaghetti, all washed down with a half gallon of red wine, or beer, or both at one sitting. When he did go to training camp, he foiled his trainer's attempts to modify his diet, and terrorized his sparring partners by eating their meals in addition to his.


He was reputed to train on beer, and allegedly ate 52 hot dogs on a bet before facing heavyweight Arthur DeKuhr. Two Ton was supposedly so bloated before the fight that the waist line of his trunks had to be slit for him to get into them. Galento claimed that he was sluggish from the effects of eating all those hot dogs, and that he could not move for three rounds. So it took him four rounds to knock out the 6'3" (192 cm) DeKuh with one punch, a left hook.


During his prime years as a boxer, Galento owned and operated a bar named "The Nut Club" in Orange, New Jersey. He was reputed to do his roadwork (training) after he closed the bar at 2:00 a.m.. When asked why he trained at night, Galento replied, "Cuz I fight at night." There is more of this article at Wikipedia. I recommend it for a good laugh.


Galento was a freak. He was a Rocky Marciano plus 50 pounds and a personality. No doubt certain facts are stretched in this article. The plain fact is Tony gave two great hw champions a run for their money. I've seen the videos. He's a legend, and we love him. What a character. Crazy bastard, but OUR crazy bastard.


BUT, (and here's my point): If Tony Two Ton Galento (or Galentski, LOL) showed up today in the rankings, especially if he was from Berserkhastan or wherever, he'd be touted as the prime example why our beloved heavyweight division has gone to hell. "Our heavyweights don't train like the old guys, they have no discipline", etc.

Here's my other point, or maybe just my opinion: Galento would be creamed by 45 of the top 50 heavyweights today. He'd knock five down but they'd come back to cream him, and he'd finish 5 by KO with that wild and wicked left hook. Who knows? He might even catch one of the Klitschko's with it.

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Originally Posted by Dave Hughey

"Do you honestly think that any HW today is as fast as the likes of Ali? Or that they hit as hard as Foreman? I don't, not at all." Quote by rjj tszyu.

OK, you've dragged up Ali and Foreman. Nobody's as fast as Ali, no-one hits as hard as Foreman.

Could be true. But putting those two together is like mixing metaphors. You morph together the best of both and you get a superhuman with Ali's speed and Foreman's punch. Then you conclude this superhuman is better than the competition in the division today. Which is true, of course. But you forget about all the "less than superhuman" fighters Ali and Foreman fought, which was the competition of that era. Some weren't fat? Some weren't slow? Some couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag?

We only remember Dempsey, Louis, Foreman and Ali. We forget all the lesser lights they fought that was their competition at the time.

As far as today's fighters conditioning is concerned, most of the Russians look in good shape to me, and Haye and Chambers are, too.

I say put the 20 best of today against the 20 best of any other era and today's bunch would win 2 out of 3.

And if today's competition was given it's due, if we'd be realistic about the competition of yesterday, the Klitschko's and some of the others like Adamek and Chagaev and Dimitrenko and Hayes and Chambers would be given their due.

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I don't think so somehow.

Muhammad Ali ----> Vitali Klitschko
Lennox Lewis ----> Wladimir Klitschko
Larry Holmes ----> David Haye
George Foreman ----> Samuel Peter
Michael Spinks ----> Tomasz Adamek

Hi Nameless,

I can sympathize with your frustration. I was watching one of the fights on video the other night and I saw that sack of human garbage Don King sitting at ringside. That SOB has been making a lot of the fights and he twists them to make him money and power, not to entertain the fans and find out who's the best. He is a low down dirty s.o.b.

There are so many match-ups I'd like to see.

(Lyle should go back and update his post about crooked matchmaking and matches he'd like to see).

So many good matches could be made. This Heavyweight Division could sparkle and shine. It could be the best ever. The talent is there. But the match makers aren't boxing fans, they are businessmen and crooks.

Not only do the matchmakers do the sport a dis-service, but they do the boxers themselves a dis-service, too. Because the boxers themselves know the match making is crooked, and they know that they probably are not going to get the rewards they deserve.

Here is a plea, people. Don't blame the fighters. Don't run them down so much. I've watched a lot of them, and they are good. They aren't perfect, but they are good. They train, they work hard, they develop incredible skills, they fight hard. GIVE THEM SOME CREDIT. Fighting is a brutal life. One punch and you could be killed. Those guys face that fact every fight, EVERY ROUND. Some of you have fought and you know.

If you are going to blame somebody, blame those @#$%$#!&*(^)+%$#@!!!!%$!!$#%@!!! matchmakers, especially YOU KNOW WHO!!!

But, on the bright side, King was looking pretty old last time I saw him. And boxing is going to be there long after the miserable s.o.b. is dead, dead, dead.

Quote from ICB: I don't think so somehow.

Muhammad Ali ----> Vitali Klitschko
Lennox Lewis ----> Wladimir Klitschko
Larry Holmes ----> David Haye
George Foreman ----> Samuel Peter
Michael Spinks ----> Tomasz Adamek __________________

Hello ICB,

Are you sure all those fighters are from the same era? Ali fought Tunny Hunseker in 1960. He retired in 1981. Lewis' first fight was in 1989, 8 years after Ali retired. Lewis fought Klitchko in 2003, then retired. So you had to span 43 years to dredge up 5 fighters you think could beat the best 5 today. Wow! That makes this division look good, not bad! Think about it.

Realistically, a fighter's prime years are, how many? Maybe 10 to 15, max. You are choosing from three or four generations of fighters, not one. But the Klitschko's, Haye, Peter and Adamek are all from ONE generation. Not a fair comparison. Have another beer.

I was watching some fights on Eurosport before the Audley fight last night, one of the heavyweights was that out of shape he was out of breath walking to the ring! After 2 rounds he looked like he was gonna puke!

Last nights knockout aside, there don't seem to be many heavy weights who can really bang, certainly not enough to knock a monster of a man out, hence the reason the Klitches are unstoppable.

I'd like to see a Tyson type come through, someone with no fear and an aggresive style, happy to mix it with any Heavyweight, even though he could have fought in a lower weight class.

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Originally Posted by Dave Hughey

Quote from ICB: I don't think so somehow.

Muhammad Ali ----> Vitali Klitschko
Lennox Lewis ----> Wladimir Klitschko
Larry Holmes ----> David Haye
George Foreman ----> Samuel Peter
Michael Spinks ----> Tomasz Adamek __________________

Hello ICB,

Are you sure all those fighters are from the same era? Ali fought Tunny Hunseker in 1960. He retired in 1981. Lewis' first fight was in 1989, 8 years after Ali retired. Lewis fought Klitchko in 2003, then retired. So you had to span 43 years to dredge up 5 fighters you think could beat the best 5 today. Wow! That makes this division look good, not bad! Think about it.

Realistically, a fighter's prime years are, how many? Maybe 10 to 15, max. You are choosing from three or four generations of fighters, not one. But the Klitschko's, Haye, Peter and Adamek are all from ONE generation. Not a fair comparison. Have another beer.

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Well i didn't know you meant just one era but if you insist.

90's

Lennox Lewis ----> Vitali Klitschko
Riddick Bowe ----> Wladimir Klitschko
Michael Moorer ----> Tomasz Adamek
Ike Ibeabuchi ----> Samuel Peter
Evander Holyfield ----> Sultan Ibragimov
David Tua ----> David Haye

80's

Tim Witherspoon ----> Vitali Klitschko
Tony Tucker ----> Wladimir Klitschko
Michael Spinks ----> Tomasz Adamek
Mike Tyson ----> Samuel Peter
Greg Page ----> Sultan Ibragimov
Larry Holmes ----> David Haye

70's

Muhammad Ali ----> Vitali Klitschko
George Foreman ----> Wladimir Klitschko
Jimmy Young ----> Tomasz Adamek
Earnie Shavers ----> Samuel Peter
Ken Norton ----> Sultan Ibragimov
Joe Frazier ----> David Haye

Only about 2 matches are debatable, out of all that list.

Anyone who thinks the heavyweights of years past are better then the current ones are simply delusional. Look at the NFL great lineman used to be 6' 260 lbs now they're 6'6 310 lbs modern nutrition and modern training have played a huge role in our advances in sports. The problem people have with the heavyweight division today are
1)The Klitschko's are too dominant
2)American kids are less likely than ever to get involved in boxing
3No current boxer has had close to the charisma or star appeal of Heavyweights from the "golden era's"

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Originally Posted by Truth

Anyone who thinks the heavyweights of years past are better then the current ones are simply delusional. Look at the NFL great lineman used to be 6' 260 lbs now they're 6'6 310 lbs modern nutrition and modern training have played a huge role in our advances in sports. The problem people have with the heavyweight division today are
1)The Klitschko's are too dominant
2)American kids are less likely than ever to get involved in boxing
3No current boxer has had close to the charisma or star appeal of Heavyweights from the "golden era's"

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I think your delusional personally, if these Heavyweights are so better, why are most of them out of shape and slow ? with all the modern training, there slower and have less stamina.

So if the boxers in the old days, are faster and have better stamina. Without the modern training doesn't that make them look even better ?

The fact that a 46 year old 6'2 Evander Holyfield, was able to beat one of the modern Heavyweight champions, in Nikolai Valuev who is 7'0. But Evander Holyfield was robbed of a decision, tells me that size isn't always better.

Also why do the Heavyweights, lack excitement if there so much better ? and why doesn't any normal armchair fan even know who the hell the Heavyweight champion currently is ?

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by Dave Hughey

Quote from ICB: I don't think so somehow.

Muhammad Ali ----> Vitali Klitschko
Lennox Lewis ----> Wladimir Klitschko
Larry Holmes ----> David Haye
George Foreman ----> Samuel Peter
Michael Spinks ----> Tomasz Adamek __________________

Hello ICB,

Are you sure all those fighters are from the same era? Ali fought Tunny Hunseker in 1960. He retired in 1981. Lewis' first fight was in 1989, 8 years after Ali retired. Lewis fought Klitchko in 2003, then retired. So you had to span 43 years to dredge up 5 fighters you think could beat the best 5 today. Wow! That makes this division look good, not bad! Think about it.

Realistically, a fighter's prime years are, how many? Maybe 10 to 15, max. You are choosing from three or four generations of fighters, not one. But the Klitschko's, Haye, Peter and Adamek are all from ONE generation. Not a fair comparison. Have another beer.

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Well i didn't know you meant just one era but if you insist.

90's

Lennox Lewis ----> Vitali Klitschko
Riddick Bowe ----> Wladimir Klitschko
Michael Moorer ----> Tomasz Adamek
Ike Ibeabuchi ----> Samuel Peter
Evander Holyfield ----> Sultan Ibragimov
David Tua ----> David Haye

80's

Tim Witherspoon ----> Vitali Klitschko
Tony Tucker ----> Wladimir Klitschko
Michael Spinks ----> Tomasz Adamek
Mike Tyson ----> Samuel Peter
Greg Page ----> Sultan Ibragimov
Larry Holmes ----> David Haye

70's

Muhammad Ali ----> Vitali Klitschko
George Foreman ----> Wladimir Klitschko
Jimmy Young ----> Tomasz Adamek
Earnie Shavers ----> Samuel Peter
Ken Norton ----> Sultan Ibragimov
Joe Frazier ----> David Haye

Only about 2 matches are debatable, out of all that list.

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Wow, I am impressed. I'd love to see those fights, prime vs. prime. I'd love to see what happens. It's a better list than I could ever have dreamed up. I have to admit I don't know all the fighters, but those I know, a lot more than two would be debatable. For instance you picked the best from four eras to fight the Klits. That's 8 that are debatable in my mind.

By debatable, I do not mean I know my guy would win. I mean the fight could go either way.

You picked Jimmy Young to beat Adamek. Very, very debatable. In fact, I'd debate every single fight in your '70's list.

Holmes would whip Hayes' ass. In fact, Holmes might whip every one of my fighters on any given day. But I'd debate every other fight in your '80's list, and, also in your '90's list.

I have to compliment you on your post. I would love to see those match ups.

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by Truth

Anyone who thinks the heavyweights of years past are better then the current ones are simply delusional. Look at the NFL great lineman used to be 6' 260 lbs now they're 6'6 310 lbs modern nutrition and modern training have played a huge role in our advances in sports. The problem people have with the heavyweight division today are
1)The Klitschko's are too dominant
2)American kids are less likely than ever to get involved in boxing
3No current boxer has had close to the charisma or star appeal of Heavyweights from the "golden era's"

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I think your delusional personally, if these Heavyweights are so better, why are most of them out of shape and slow ? with all the modern training, there slower and have less stamina.

So if the boxers in the old days, are faster and have better stamina. Without the modern training doesn't that make them look even better ?

The fact that a 46 year old 6'2 Evander Holyfield, was able to beat one of the modern Heavyweight champions, in Nikolai Valuev who is 7'0. But Evander Holyfield was robbed of a decision, tells me that size isn't always better.

Also why do the Heavyweights, lack excitement if there so much better ? and why doesn't any normal armchair fan even know who the hell the Heavyweight champion currently is ?

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They do, in Germany and Eastern Europe. You're looking at it from a Brit viewpoint which many Americans also shared with you, but not the general consensus whatever.

I know this might be shocking, but there is an entire world out there besides your homeland. Shocking ain't it?

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Originally Posted by Truth

Anyone who thinks the heavyweights of years past are better then the current ones are simply delusional. Look at the NFL great lineman used to be 6' 260 lbs now they're 6'6 310 lbs modern nutrition and modern training have played a huge role in our advances in sports. The problem people have with the heavyweight division today are
1)The Klitschko's are too dominant
2)American kids are less likely than ever to get involved in boxing
3No current boxer has had close to the charisma or star appeal of Heavyweights from the "golden era's"

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Kind of narrow-minded reasoning, if you ask me. I think people would love to see more athletic, skilled, charismatic heavyweights going at it... regardless of their nationality.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Truth

Anyone who thinks the heavyweights of years past are better then the current ones are simply delusional. Look at the NFL great lineman used to be 6' 260 lbs now they're 6'6 310 lbs modern nutrition and modern training have played a huge role in our advances in sports. The problem people have with the heavyweight division today are
1)The Klitschko's are too dominant
2)American kids are less likely than ever to get involved in boxing
3No current boxer has had close to the charisma or star appeal of Heavyweights from the "golden era's"

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Kind of narrow-minded reasoning, if you ask me. I think people would love to see more athletic, skilled, charismatic heavyweights going at it... regardless of their nationality.

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Exactly. Let's say if there was an HW version of a prime Duran, I'm pretty sure he would be very popular amongst casual and hardcore boxing fans and the general public in America.

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Originally Posted by Truth

Anyone who thinks the heavyweights of years past are better then the current ones are simply delusional. Look at the NFL great lineman used to be 6' 260 lbs now they're 6'6 310 lbs modern nutrition and modern training have played a huge role in our advances in sports. The problem people have with the heavyweight division today are
1)The Klitschko's are too dominant
2)American kids are less likely than ever to get involved in boxing
3No current boxer has had close to the charisma or star appeal of Heavyweights from the "golden era's"

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Truth, you make some good points. I'm not sure that America can't still produce some great boxers, though. If the money's there, why not?

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Originally Posted by Truth

Anyone who thinks the heavyweights of years past are better then the current ones are simply delusional. Look at the NFL great lineman used to be 6' 260 lbs now they're 6'6 310 lbs modern nutrition and modern training have played a huge role in our advances in sports. The problem people have with the heavyweight division today are
1)The Klitschko's are too dominant
2)American kids are less likely than ever to get involved in boxing
3No current boxer has had close to the charisma or star appeal of Heavyweights from the "golden era's"

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One other thing, Truth. Here's why I asked you why America can't produce another great heavyweight. All we need is another heavyweight champion who can beat the best there is in the world if we want the average Joe America to know what the Champ's name is. Hype won't do it. Charisma won't do it. Only winning will do it. And with winning there will come charisma. Face it, we'll never have another Ali. God only made one of those.

If we want the average Joe to know who the heavyweight champ is, we need another great Champ. The problem is not the hype. If the fighter is winning, the fans and media will supply the hype. My God, look at Marciano. Can you remember anything he ever said or did (outside the ring)? But did the fans love him? Does he have charisma now?

So, say it ain't so that America can't produce another great Champ.