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Wilfredo Benitez beating Cervantes for the lineal 140 crown at 17! He was still a boy and not yet a developed man yet. The youngest in history to achieve this feat. In fact I can only name 2 other guys in boxing history that became lineal champs at their division in their teen years. One is Canzoneri and the other Pacquiao. I'm pretty sure there may be 1 or 2 more but I'm not sure.
It's a pretty goddamned short list.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
Benitez at 17
Pipino Cuevas at 18
Manny at 18
Tony Canzoneri at 19 (though he got a draw at 18 for the bantam crown IIRC)
Lionel Rose at 19
Ben Villaflor at 19
Those guys all won lineal/undisputed crowns
Hiroki Ioka at 18 won the first 105 title if you want to count him.
I think that's it. 135 years of boxing as we now know it and it's been done only 6-7 times.
Thanks for this list. I've been racking my brain and started a thread here a year or 2 ago to ask who were also lineal champs in their teen years. And I got Canzoneri was the only answer. It is indeed a very short list. It is extremely rare in boxing history to be the man of the division when your body hasn't fully mature yet!Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiIt's a pretty goddamned short list.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
Benitez at 17
Pipino Cuevas at 18
Manny at 18
Tony Canzoneri at 19 (though he got a draw at 18 for the bantam crown IIRC)
Lionel Rose at 19
Ben Villaflor at 19
Those guys all won lineal/undisputed crowns
Hiroki Ioka at 18 won the first 105 title if you want to count him.
I think that's it. 135 years of boxing as we now know it and it's been done only 6-7 times.
I think it says something else too. When there were eight divisions only Canzoneri did it. The other guys only did it after the sport had been further chopped up into junior/super divisions. Canzoneri in what 1927-28? And then it didn't happen again until the very late 1960's with Rose. Then over only a decade we had Rose, Villaflor, Benitez and Cuevas? That demonstrates something else was going on as well. Of course since the late 1970's just Manny and Hiroka...so maybe my thesis is only half cooked. Hmmmmm.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogThanks for this list. I've been racking my brain and started a thread here a year or 2 ago to ask who were also lineal champs in their teen years. And I got Canzoneri was the only answer. It is indeed a very short list. It is extremely rare in boxing history to be the man of the division when your body hasn't fully mature yet!Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiIt's a pretty goddamned short list.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
Benitez at 17
Pipino Cuevas at 18
Manny at 18
Tony Canzoneri at 19 (though he got a draw at 18 for the bantam crown IIRC)
Lionel Rose at 19
Ben Villaflor at 19
Those guys all won lineal/undisputed crowns
Hiroki Ioka at 18 won the first 105 title if you want to count him.
I think that's it. 135 years of boxing as we now know it and it's been done only 6-7 times.
To think Manny was the last guy to do it and it has been more than 12 years already since there was a teenage lineal champion. If we're lucky it could very well be another decade before another one comes along.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiI think it says something else too. When there were eight divisions only Canzoneri did it. The other guys only did it after the sport had been further chopped up into junior/super divisions. Canzoneri in what 1927-28? And then it didn't happen again until the very late 1960's with Rose. Then over only a decade we had Rose, Villaflor, Benitez and Cuevas? That demonstrates something else was going on as well. Of course since the late 1970's just Manny and Hiroka...so maybe my thesis is only half cooked. Hmmmmm.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogThanks for this list. I've been racking my brain and started a thread here a year or 2 ago to ask who were also lineal champs in their teen years. And I got Canzoneri was the only answer. It is indeed a very short list. It is extremely rare in boxing history to be the man of the division when your body hasn't fully mature yet!Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiIt's a pretty goddamned short list.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
Benitez at 17
Pipino Cuevas at 18
Manny at 18
Tony Canzoneri at 19 (though he got a draw at 18 for the bantam crown IIRC)
Lionel Rose at 19
Ben Villaflor at 19
Those guys all won lineal/undisputed crowns
Hiroki Ioka at 18 won the first 105 title if you want to count him.
I think that's it. 135 years of boxing as we now know it and it's been done only 6-7 times.
I have to give it up to your boxing knowledge. Only 9 minutes after I asked a question of who were other teenage lineal champs you came up with a list just like that. An old thread where I asked this question and I only got 1 answer and that was days later after I started the thread.
Wilfredo Benitez became the youngest World Champ in boxing history at age 17 beating Kid Pambele.
The way Tyson swept through the mid-late 80's was a miracle for heavyweight boxing and one of it's greatest spectacles ever. The mess that Larry Holmes/IBF had helped to create was finally swept up once Spinks was demolished.
A futile effort in the long run but all the more reason to merit it IMO.
Marciano fought old men and fighters way past there best.Not his fault because thats all that was about at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiWhat's great about Marciano's is he wrecked the division. I don't know what to say abolut Calzaghe's. I mean when there is another unbeaten guy in your division and on your continent that you don't fight? How does one even know if Calzaghe was the best 168 within 300 miles?Quote:
Originally Posted by porkypara
Calzaghe was involved in many fights where he was the underdog or 50/50 and he managed to avoid defeat.
Almost all great boxers lose at some point so the fact that Marciano and Calzaghe avoided defeat in almost 50 fights each is great IMO.
I'm in the middle here. I believe both Calzaghe and Marciano accomplished great things. Actually, I believe their records are comparable in a way. As to Calzaghe, he is arguably the greatest super middleweight to have graced the ring. It doesn't bother me that he didn't fight Sven Ottke because I have no doubt in my mind that he would have taken Ottke to school with a beating worse than he put on Jeff Lacy. Although he did come over here five years too late, he beat the two fighters at or around his weight that people always questioned him about. I respect that because it's better late than never.Quote:
Originally Posted by porkyparaMarciano fought old men and fighters way past there best.Not his fault because thats all that was about at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiWhat's great about Marciano's is he wrecked the division. I don't know what to say abolut Calzaghe's. I mean when there is another unbeaten guy in your division and on your continent that you don't fight? How does one even know if Calzaghe was the best 168 within 300 miles?Quote:
Originally Posted by porkypara
Calzaghe was involved in many fights where he was the underdog or 50/50 and he managed to avoid defeat.
Almost all great boxers lose at some point so the fact that Marciano and Calzaghe avoided defeat in almost 50 fights each is great IMO.
Al, sometime it's hard to beleive you are British. Apart from VD you are the most critical person on the forum of British fighters. In this instance I agree with you ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord AlTo put Eubank's name in the top ten boxing accomplishments is an insult , firstly he was WBO champion which was the weakest at the time. He wasnt even close to being the best in his division, and his choice of oponants was questionable at best , lots were just club fighters , and he rarely looked good against any of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by rossMarciano only fought 5 opponents as a champ I think?Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiWhat's great about Marciano's is he wrecked the division. I don't know what to say abolut Calzaghe's. I mean when there is another unbeaten guy in your division and on your continent that you don't fight? How does one even know if Calzaghe was the best 168 within 300 miles?Quote:
Originally Posted by porkypara
Of modern heavies Tyson beating 3 seperate champs to unify and defend the unified championship 7 times is an acheivment.
Chris Eubanks fight schedule between the Benn rematch and the first Collins fight. 6 fights as defending champ in 94. All 12 rounders around the world.
Personally i think PACMAN'S jump from FLY up to JMW and retaining his speed and power is one of the best accomplishments.
Respectfully, the bold and the mindset it reflects just KILLS me. It is way too common in the current boxing fan. You THINKING a fight outcome is certain is NOT equivalent to an actual victory in the ring. That logic says nobody ever actually has to fight anyone, that we can all just predict and that carries the same weight. Yet if boxing shows us anything? It shows us stunning upsets like Schemling over Louis, Braddock over Baer, Turpin over Robinson, Walcott over Charles, Laing over Duran, Honeyghan over Curry, Douglas over Tyson and on and on and on.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratI'm in the middle here. I believe both Calzaghe and Marciano accomplished great things. Actually, I believe their records are comparable in a way. As to Calzaghe, he is arguably the greatest super middleweight to have graced the ring. It doesn't bother me that he didn't fight Sven Ottke because I have no doubt in my mind that he would have taken Ottke to school with a beating worse than he put on Jeff Lacy. Although he did come over here five years too late, he beat the two fighters at or around his weight that people always questioned him about. I respect that because it's better late than never.Quote:
Originally Posted by porkyparaMarciano fought old men and fighters way past there best.Not his fault because thats all that was about at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiWhat's great about Marciano's is he wrecked the division. I don't know what to say abolut Calzaghe's. I mean when there is another unbeaten guy in your division and on your continent that you don't fight? How does one even know if Calzaghe was the best 168 within 300 miles?Quote:
Originally Posted by porkypara
Calzaghe was involved in many fights where he was the underdog or 50/50 and he managed to avoid defeat.
Almost all great boxers lose at some point so the fact that Marciano and Calzaghe avoided defeat in almost 50 fights each is great IMO.
Like I said, Marciano had nobody left to fight, Calzaghe had a guy within 300 miles he never fought.
Thanks goodness, you are here to educate us all ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiRespectfully, the bold and the mindset it reflects just KILLS me. It is way too common in the current boxing fan. You THINKING a fight outcome is certain is NOT equivalent to an actual victory in the ring. That logic says nobody ever actually has to fight anyone, that we can all just predict and that carries the same weight. Yet if boxing shows us anything? It shows us stunning upsets like Schemling over Louis, Braddock over Baer, Turpin over Robinson, Walcott over Charles, Laing over Duran, Honeyghan over Curry, Douglas over Tyson and on and on and on.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratI'm in the middle here. I believe both Calzaghe and Marciano accomplished great things. Actually, I believe their records are comparable in a way. As to Calzaghe, he is arguably the greatest super middleweight to have graced the ring. It doesn't bother me that he didn't fight Sven Ottke because I have no doubt in my mind that he would have taken Ottke to school with a beating worse than he put on Jeff Lacy. Although he did come over here five years too late, he beat the two fighters at or around his weight that people always questioned him about. I respect that because it's better late than never.Quote:
Originally Posted by porkyparaQuote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiWhat's great about Marciano's is he wrecked the division. I don't know what to say abolut Calzaghe's. I mean when there is another unbeaten guy in your division and on your continent that you don't fight? How does one even know if Calzaghe was the best 168 within 300 miles?Quote:
Originally Posted by porkypara
Marciano fought old men and fighters way past there best.Not his fault because thats all that was about at the time.
Calzaghe was involved in many fights where he was the underdog or 50/50 and he managed to avoid defeat.
Almost all great boxers lose at some point so the fact that Marciano and Calzaghe avoided defeat in almost 50 fights each is great IMO.
Like I said, Marciano had nobody left to fight, Calzaghe had a guy within 300 miles he never fought.
I don't disagree with you about that criticism of Calzaghe. And you make a good point about that mindset, I'll concede. I just was never high on Sven Ottke, less so even than I am on Felix Sturm now. That isn't an excuse for not fighting him though. I guess one thing about Calzaghe is that he fought the next WBA titleholder after Ottke and unified titles when he beat an undefeated Kessler. But, I'll agree not fighting Sven Ottke is a blemish on his record.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiRespectfully, the bold and the mindset it reflects just KILLS me. It is way too common in the current boxing fan. You THINKING a fight outcome is certain is NOT equivalent to an actual victory in the ring. That logic says nobody ever actually has to fight anyone, that we can all just predict and that carries the same weight. Yet if boxing shows us anything? It shows us stunning upsets like Schemling over Louis, Braddock over Baer, Turpin over Robinson, Walcott over Charles, Laing over Duran, Honeyghan over Curry, Douglas over Tyson and on and on and on.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratI'm in the middle here. I believe both Calzaghe and Marciano accomplished great things. Actually, I believe their records are comparable in a way. As to Calzaghe, he is arguably the greatest super middleweight to have graced the ring. It doesn't bother me that he didn't fight Sven Ottke because I have no doubt in my mind that he would have taken Ottke to school with a beating worse than he put on Jeff Lacy. Although he did come over here five years too late, he beat the two fighters at or around his weight that people always questioned him about. I respect that because it's better late than never.Quote:
Originally Posted by porkyparaMarciano fought old men and fighters way past there best.Not his fault because thats all that was about at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiWhat's great about Marciano's is he wrecked the division. I don't know what to say abolut Calzaghe's. I mean when there is another unbeaten guy in your division and on your continent that you don't fight? How does one even know if Calzaghe was the best 168 within 300 miles?Quote:
Originally Posted by porkypara
Calzaghe was involved in many fights where he was the underdog or 50/50 and he managed to avoid defeat.
Almost all great boxers lose at some point so the fact that Marciano and Calzaghe avoided defeat in almost 50 fights each is great IMO.
Like I said, Marciano had nobody left to fight, Calzaghe had a guy within 300 miles he never fought.
Wasn't there criticism of Rocky Marciano not fighting Floyd Patterson or am I wrong on that one?
You must not think highly of Floyd's undefeated record either then I assume because he hasn't fought 5 eligible welterweights over the past 5 years that he should have fought.
Who is this great fighter you speak of????Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiRespectfully, the bold and the mindset it reflects just KILLS me. It is way too common in the current boxing fan. You THINKING a fight outcome is certain is NOT equivalent to an actual victory in the ring. That logic says nobody ever actually has to fight anyone, that we can all just predict and that carries the same weight. Yet if boxing shows us anything? It shows us stunning upsets like Schemling over Louis, Braddock over Baer, Turpin over Robinson, Walcott over Charles, Laing over Duran, Honeyghan over Curry, Douglas over Tyson and on and on and on.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratI'm in the middle here. I believe both Calzaghe and Marciano accomplished great things. Actually, I believe their records are comparable in a way. As to Calzaghe, he is arguably the greatest super middleweight to have graced the ring. It doesn't bother me that he didn't fight Sven Ottke because I have no doubt in my mind that he would have taken Ottke to school with a beating worse than he put on Jeff Lacy. Although he did come over here five years too late, he beat the two fighters at or around his weight that people always questioned him about. I respect that because it's better late than never.Quote:
Originally Posted by porkyparaMarciano fought old men and fighters way past there best.Not his fault because thats all that was about at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiWhat's great about Marciano's is he wrecked the division. I don't know what to say abolut Calzaghe's. I mean when there is another unbeaten guy in your division and on your continent that you don't fight? How does one even know if Calzaghe was the best 168 within 300 miles?Quote:
Originally Posted by porkypara
Calzaghe was involved in many fights where he was the underdog or 50/50 and he managed to avoid defeat.
Almost all great boxers lose at some point so the fact that Marciano and Calzaghe avoided defeat in almost 50 fights each is great IMO.
Like I said, Marciano had nobody left to fight, Calzaghe had a guy within 300 miles he never fought.
If you actually look at who was fighting in the SMW at a time when fight could've been made, I think you will find that (good or bad) he fought everybody available. e.g Hopkins was fighting at 160, Jones was at 175, you can go on and on with this list. The only person at SMW he didn't face was Sven Ottke. Ottke only fought in Germany and JC would've been very foolish to take that fight in Germany as Robin Reid found out.