Overrating the Past......? No way!

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Originally Posted by BIG H

You gotta look at facts. Is there any sport you can think of where the guys from the fifties, sixties and seventies are the best ever? (apart from Pele :-\)

So, it would be odd to expect that boxing is the exception, especially when boxing is probably the sport where advances in all things to do with physicality are most utilized.

Having said that, I still think SRR is the GOAT and Wille Pepp isn't far behind :-\ So maybe I'm talking shite ;D

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Actually it isn't odd and boxing IS the exception. Why? (in no order)
1. Weaker raw material. 50ish years ago good athletes really only had two ways to make big money in sports. Baseball and boxing. Now athletes can make money in literally dozens of sports they couldn't back then.
2. Half as many fighters. The sport is just a fraction of the size it once was. Most other sports are larger in terms of participants.
3. Fighters fight half as often. Humans get better the more they do something. Doing something less frequently necessarily means less expertise. Other sports are having longer and longer seasons and more and more practices, hence better performance.
4. Declining resources. Boxing gyms are a dying commodity, 90% are gone.
5. Boxing doesn't participate in the size explosion (except at heavy). Basketball is better because point guards are now 6'4 rather than 6' tall. Swimmers are much larger than they used to be, so are sprinters, football players, baseball players etc. But boxing is weight restricted. You simply cannot take a guy fit enough to fight 15 rounds at a rapid pace at 147 and add muscle and still have him be 147. The body simply doesn't work that way. If it did? We'd have a pile of 6'2 welters walking around. But we don't.

There is more, but you get the idea.

As far as I am concerned this is about toughness as opposed to those having access to the best trainers and nutrition etc. Now my point and there are those people that do not understand it but I will try to be brief and simple. Years ago there were boxing gyms all over the place and in order to be tough and be a man your old man dropped you off one rainy afternoon or you went there with your pennies and paid your dues. Desire brought you there and habit kept you there. You felt good and stayed until the draft board or college got you and still some guys managed to keep training and fighting. It was pure heart and muscle. Marciano was only one of thousands but we live in a society controlled by bleeding hearts that did all they could to abolish the gentlemanly art of self defense and they were too soft and delicate to try and better themselves physically in a real man's world and in some alleged fighters this bitching and moaning has appeared while yuppie executives did away with Tuesday night fights, the highest rating show for years even at the cancellation shows us why some people compare then and now and the only thing I want from then is the dedication and thank God for new advancements that may help the fighters with that old time determination survive in modern ring. Give a cool click to the author for effort.

The only weight class that is effected by the time is Heavyweight because of the no limit weight.

Rocky lost a fight BEFORE he was even amateur, in Brockton, Mass to a black guy. It was like some local boxing club/gym. Marciano had thrown all his punches--about 250 they say--in the 1st 3 rounds and was totally punched-out. So knowing he would get knocked out, he kneed the poor guy in the balls, and ran out of the ring into the street. At that time he may have been 23 years old. I think he quit boxing for a year or 2 after that, and tried out for the Chicago Cubs. So that's a DQ. But I dont think that counts :)

Anyway, like I said before, some people come into this world and by some hand of grace nobody can beat them. Marciano was one of those people. How can we explain it? To the poster who was "confused" :rolleyes: why I started another Marciano post----some things need no explanation. This topic will never be totally discussed, there's too much mystery and fascination about it.

Balding, 2 left feet, uncoordinated, SHORTEST REACH IN HEAVYWEIGHT HISTORY, slow, DIDN'T STRAT BOXING UNTIL AGE 24, etc.... How did this guy do it? How?

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

Anyway, like I said before, some people come into this world and by some hand of grace nobody can beat them. Marciano was one of those people. How can we explain it? To the poster who was "confused" :rolleyes: why I started another Marciano post----some things need no explanation. This topic will never be totally discussed, there's too much mystery and fascination about it.

Balding, 2 left feet, uncoordinated, SHORTEST REACH IN HEAVYWEIGHT HISTORY, slow, DIDN'T STRAT BOXING UNTIL AGE 24, etc.... How did this guy do it? How?

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Well one way is he was as fit as any man who ever stepped into the ring. Another is he wasn't bereft of athletic talent. He was FREAKISHLY strong for a man his size and I think the uncoordinated thing is overplayed. he was too good a baseball player for that to be true. Maybe a better way of saying it is he wasn't graceful.

This kind of argument is foolish IMO. You'd have to be crazy to believe that, on average, athletes today are not stronger than the athletes of yesteryears.

This "people were tougher back then" crap always irks me too. There were tough guys and sissies back then, just like there are tough guys and sissies now. Not trying to sound like a prick, but these are the kinds of ignorant blanket statements that you make when you're a kid.

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

Anyway, like I said before, some people come into this world and by some hand of grace nobody can beat them. Marciano was one of those people. How can we explain it? To the poster who was "confused" :rolleyes: why I started another Marciano post----some things need no explanation. This topic will never be totally discussed, there's too much mystery and fascination about it.

Balding, 2 left feet, uncoordinated, SHORTEST REACH IN HEAVYWEIGHT HISTORY, slow, DIDN'T STRAT BOXING UNTIL AGE 24, etc.... How did this guy do it? How?

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Well one way is he was as fit as any man who ever stepped into the ring. Another is he wasn't bereft of athletic talent. He was FREAKISHLY strong for a man his size and I think the uncoordinated thing is overplayed. he was too good a baseball player for that to be true. Maybe a better way of saying it is he wasn't graceful.

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Baseball player?! That fucking explains it then.. I mean the way he throws some of his punches, he pitches them at you.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

This kind of argument is foolish IMO. You'd have to be crazy to believe that, on average, athletes today are not stronger than the athletes of yesteryears.
This "people were tougher back then" crap always irks me too. There were tough guys and sissies back then, just like there are tough guys and sissies now. Not trying to sound like a prick, but these are the kinds of ignorant blanket statements that you make when you're a kid.

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And you'd have to be crazy to think boxing gets the same quality athlete it got 50+ years ago. And since one can't make the skull or brain stronger? If figghters are stronger? How come there aren't more deaths today? I mean there oughtta be dead fighters all over the place, right?

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Originally Posted by Jimanuel Boogustus

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

Anyway, like I said before, some people come into this world and by some hand of grace nobody can beat them. Marciano was one of those people. How can we explain it? To the poster who was "confused" :rolleyes: why I started another Marciano post----some things need no explanation. This topic will never be totally discussed, there's too much mystery and fascination about it.

Balding, 2 left feet, uncoordinated, SHORTEST REACH IN HEAVYWEIGHT HISTORY, slow, DIDN'T STRAT BOXING UNTIL AGE 24, etc.... How did this guy do it? How?

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Well one way is he was as fit as any man who ever stepped into the ring. Another is he wasn't bereft of athletic talent. He was FREAKISHLY strong for a man his size and I think the uncoordinated thing is overplayed. he was too good a baseball player for that to be true. Maybe a better way of saying it is he wasn't graceful.

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Baseball player?! That fucking explains it then.. I mean the way he throws some of his punches, he pitches them at you.

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LOL, yup. He was a pretty good catcher.

If that argument irks you, then it proves my point. People 50 years ago wouldnt be irked by that argument. But since you aren't as strong as those people, it irks you. :)

I will say that depending on the match up and the fighter I tend to favor the old school fighter over todays fighters.

Tiger, Monzon beat any of todays Middleweights.
Griffith, Armstrong & Napoles beat any of todays Welterweights.

For me it's because Griffith fought the best available sure he lost some, but he also won some. He fought 2, 3 times a month. He challenged and beat HoF'ers.

Todays fighters with the exception of a handful just don't do that.

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

If that argument irks you, then it proves my point. People 50 years ago wouldnt be irked by that argument. But since you aren't as strong as those people, it irks you. :)

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LOL good point ;)

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

And you'd have to be crazy to think boxing gets the same quality athlete it got 50+ years ago. And since one can't make the skull or brain stronger? If figghters are stronger? How come there aren't more deaths today? I mean there oughtta be dead fighters all over the place, right?

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1) Rules and sanctions have changed (less rounds, quicker stoppages, ect ect) over the last 50+ years to make it "relatively" safer. That, coupled with the fact that boxers are having much less fights (thus, less brain injury) than fighters of yesteryears. I reckon that would explain the drop in deaths.

2) Go back and look at the deaths in boxing. How many of them have been brutal early KO's? I can't think of one. Deaths/serious brain injuries have occured when fighters have taken a multitude of blows over a longer fight. Over the past several years, its been determined that its not only the concussion blows that take its toll on the brain, but also the subconcussive ones. One is much less likely to die from a brutal early KO than from a prolonged beating that lasts into the later rounds.

So if fighters today are much stronger (and thus scoring more early KOs), then it stands to reason that there would actually be LESS deaths than if they didn't punch as hard and had to punish their opponent into the the later rounds to get a KO.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

And you'd have to be crazy to think boxing gets the same quality athlete it got 50+ years ago. And since one can't make the skull or brain stronger? If figghters are stronger? How come there aren't more deaths today? I mean there oughtta be dead fighters all over the place, right?

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1) Rules and sanctions have changed (less rounds, quicker stoppages, ect ect) over the last 50+ years to make it "relatively" safer. That, coupled with the fact that boxers are having much less fights (thus, less brain injury) than fighters of yesteryears. I reckon that would explain the drop in deaths.

2) Go back and look at the deaths in boxing. How many of them have been brutal early KO's? I can't think of one. Deaths/serious brain injuries have occured when fighters have taken a multitude of blows over a longer fight. Over the past several years, its been determined that its not only the concussion blows that take its toll on the brain, but also the subconcussive ones. One is much less likely to die from a brutal early KO than from a prolonged beating that lasts into the later rounds.

So if fighters today are much stronger (and thus scoring more early KOs), then it stands to reason that there would actually be LESS deaths than if they didn't punch as hard and had to punish their opponent into the the later rounds to get a KO.

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MANY deaths in the ring are early KO's. Lito Sisnorio, round 4, Hen drik Bira, round three, Muhammad Basule, round 3, David Rickman, round four, Bones Francisius round three, Amang Gimay Round one, Bradley Rone, round two, Hugo Guzman, round two, Cresencio Mercado, Round one, Simpiwe Galade, round one, Coleman Cedar, round four, John Namitula, round four, Mazawa Mathole, round three. Now that is a partial list from 2000-2007 only.

Since you entire argument rests on an assumption that isnt' valid...