Changing One's Mind on Fighters

Jones was one of the greatest. Yeah, he lost to Tarver and it was a slippery slope after that but don't think for a second Jones isn't an atg. Jones messed up when he dropped that weight to give Tarver the rematch, he got caught and itwas downhill. Don't be fooled...Tarver, Johnson, or any of those guys don't beat prime Jones.

Manny Pacquiao-Old View: Relentless one-dimensional fighter who posses great speed and power. Trains like a mad man to get himself ready for the big fights. New View: Relentless one-dimensional fighter who posses great speed and power. Juices like a mad man to get himself ready for the big fights

Joe Calzaghe-Old View: Overrated slapper who retired from boxing in order to protected his tainted 0. New View: Overrated slapper who retired from boxing in order to protected his tainted 0 and sniff coke

Ricky Hatton-Old view: Limited boxer with a bad drinking addiction. New View: Limited promoter with a bad drinking and gravy addiction

James DeGale -old view = talented fighter , loud mouth and ugly long faced cunt .
new view - ugly long faced cunt with big mouth.

Brilliant read.

Tommy Hearns is a great fighter and only beaten by great fighters himself which is no shame as Manny Pac would lose to SRL. Hearns is a legend.

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Originally Posted by Master

Brilliant read.

Tommy Hearns is a great fighter and only beaten by great fighters himself which is no shame as Manny Pac would lose to SRL. Hearns is a legend.

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Yeah, not one of my finest hours not getting that the first time around.

Hearns was pretty good. Lost twice to Iran Barkley, and I guess he just had his number. But there's a couple other glitches in his career that make me wonder about him being 'great.'
He fought Doug DeWitt, nobody's definition of a great, or particularly good, fighter. He had skills and some mental lapses that held him back, and a very solid chin for most of his career. Hearns hit DeWitt with something like 22 straight punches at the end of the 2nd round of their fight and didn't hurt him: but Doug had a good chin and Hearns was having hand problems then. In the 7th round DeWitt landed several body punches and took it all out of Hearns.
Hearns fought Olijade and out boxed him, knocked him down. In the course of trying to finish him, Hearns got hit with a left hook that took his legs straight away. He had nothing and sleep walked the rest of the way against a guy that had less and didn't know what he had in front of him.
In my mind, his inability to take a punch and recover is what keeps Hearns from being a truly top-flight fighter. Granted, he could concievably overwhelm a guy like he did Duran (a better fighter), but, if that didn't work, he was waiting to be had. Thjis was true throughout his entire career, at every weight. McCallum would've beaten him, Toney, and a bunch of others.

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Hearns was pretty good. Lost twice to Iran Barkley, and I guess he just had his number. But there's a couple other glitches in his career that make me wonder about him being 'great.'
He fought Doug DeWitt, nobody's definition of a great, or particularly good, fighter. He had skills and some mental lapses that held him back, and a very solid chin for most of his career. Hearns hit DeWitt with something like 22 straight punches at the end of the 2nd round of their fight and didn't hurt him: but Doug had a good chin and Hearns was having hand problems then. In the 7th round DeWitt landed several body punches and took it all out of Hearns.
Hearns fought Olijade and out boxed him, knocked him down. In the course of trying to finish him, Hearns got hit with a left hook that took his legs straight away. He had nothing and sleep walked the rest of the way against a guy that had less and didn't know what he had in front of him.
In my mind, his inability to take a punch and recover is what keeps Hearns from being a truly top-flight fighter. Granted, he could concievably overwhelm a guy like he did Duran (a better fighter), but, if that didn't work, he was waiting to be had. Thjis was true throughout his entire career, at every weight. McCallum would've beaten him, Toney, and a bunch of others.

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I thought Kinchen beat him. And though in well late years journeyman Delgado gave him hell. Manny should have done him right and pulled him aside far earlier..."son its time". Watching him pull up lame vs Grant was sad to see. Maybe in alot of ways Hearns embodied Kronk, didn't want to see it end.

Kinchen was another fight where he didn't take it well.
But Hearns could get you, too. Duran, I think, was a better fighter, in that he'd beat guys that Hearns couldn't, but I can't see him ever beating Hearns. Just styles, I guess.

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Kinchen was another fight where he didn't take it well.
But Hearns could get you, too. Duran, I think, was a better fighter, in that he'd beat guys that Hearns couldn't, but I can't see him ever beating Hearns. Just styles, I guess.

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Totally agree. Styles and that straight 'come to jeezus' like right hand Hearns had. One of the most devastating kos ever seen.

I saw Hearns fight in LA once, against Kemper Morgan (Morton?), and he knocked him out with a left hook.

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Hearns was pretty good. Lost twice to Iran Barkley, and I guess he just had his number. But there's a couple other glitches in his career that make me wonder about him being 'great.'
He fought Doug DeWitt, nobody's definition of a great, or particularly good, fighter. He had skills and some mental lapses that held him back, and a very solid chin for most of his career. Hearns hit DeWitt with something like 22 straight punches at the end of the 2nd round of their fight and didn't hurt him: but Doug had a good chin and Hearns was having hand problems then. In the 7th round DeWitt landed several body punches and took it all out of Hearns.
Hearns fought Olijade and out boxed him, knocked him down. In the course of trying to finish him, Hearns got hit with a left hook that took his legs straight away. He had nothing and sleep walked the rest of the way against a guy that had less and didn't know what he had in front of him.
In my mind, his inability to take a punch and recover is what keeps Hearns from being a truly top-flight fighter. Granted, he could concievably overwhelm a guy like he did Duran (a better fighter), but, if that didn't work, he was waiting to be had. Thjis was true throughout his entire career, at every weight. McCallum would've beaten him, Toney, and a bunch of others.

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I hear ya on everything you said. But I'd argue the Olajide, Dewitt fights he still won. And neither of those guys was a joke. As for your suppositions, even if I agree with them (which I largely do) woulda coulda shoulda just carries no weight with me...or only a little anyway (I am too often wrong in actual predictions). Hearns fought an excellent collection of fighters, defeated some true greats in Duran and Benitez and gave everyone he fought, including ATG's absolute hell.

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Originally Posted by Spicoli

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Kinchen was another fight where he didn't take it well.
But Hearns could get you, too. Duran, I think, was a better fighter, in that he'd beat guys that Hearns couldn't, but I can't see him ever beating Hearns. Just styles, I guess.

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Totally agree. Styles and that straight 'come to jeezus' like right hand Hearns had. One of the most devastating kos ever seen.

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Watching that fight was the strangest thing. I had never before, and would never see again, Duran look really, really uncomfortable in the ring. Frustrated sure. But he looked at Hearns like Tommy was from another planet and where the hell was the cavalry?

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Hearns was pretty good. Lost twice to Iran Barkley, and I guess he just had his number. But there's a couple other glitches in his career that make me wonder about him being 'great.'
He fought Doug DeWitt, nobody's definition of a great, or particularly good, fighter. He had skills and some mental lapses that held him back, and a very solid chin for most of his career. Hearns hit DeWitt with something like 22 straight punches at the end of the 2nd round of their fight and didn't hurt him: but Doug had a good chin and Hearns was having hand problems then. In the 7th round DeWitt landed several body punches and took it all out of Hearns.
Hearns fought Olijade and out boxed him, knocked him down. In the course of trying to finish him, Hearns got hit with a left hook that took his legs straight away. He had nothing and sleep walked the rest of the way against a guy that had less and didn't know what he had in front of him.
In my mind, his inability to take a punch and recover is what keeps Hearns from being a truly top-flight fighter. Granted, he could concievably overwhelm a guy like he did Duran (a better fighter), but, if that didn't work, he was waiting to be had. Thjis was true throughout his entire career, at every weight. McCallum would've beaten him, Toney, and a bunch of others.

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Hearns had his faults. No denying that. You make some decent points. You consider him to be a good fighter. But his resume says otherwise. No matter what happened in the Olijade and DeWitt fights he still won them. And they were clearcut wins. Add Pipino Cuevas, Roberto Duran, Bruce Curry, Wilfred Benitez, Ray Leonard (that was no draw), Virgil Hill, Angel Espada and it ain't hard to see why he's pretty much consider great by most

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by Spicoli

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Kinchen was another fight where he didn't take it well.
But Hearns could get you, too. Duran, I think, was a better fighter, in that he'd beat guys that Hearns couldn't, but I can't see him ever beating Hearns. Just styles, I guess.

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Totally agree. Styles and that straight 'come to jeezus' like right hand Hearns had. One of the most devastating kos ever seen.

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Watching that fight was the strangest thing. I had never before, and would never see again, Duran look really, really uncomfortable in the ring. Frustrated sure. But he looked at Hearns like Tommy was from another planet and where the hell was the cavalry?

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Its always struck me odd that one yeh. With nothing but mass respect to Duran, almost seemed a man vs boy match, ya know. He just detonated on his chin.

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Originally Posted by Mars_ax

Roy Jones-Old View-The greatest fighter of the last twenty years. An unprecedented combination of speed and power. First New View-Roy's technique was terrible, he fought very limited competition and he was never a warrior. It is easy to look flashy against one's athletic inferiors, but it doesn't mean much. Not a top 50 all-timer. New, New View-The more you look at who Roy beat, the better his resume is. Nobody really beat him before he was 35 and he showed how he came off disappointment against Montell Griffin in one glorious round. Father Time is what got Roy. Tarver didn't. A top 50 all-timer.
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The only one i'm going to comment on Marble, is Roy Jones Jr., was his competition really all that great when compared to the resumes of the top 50 all-time greats? Father- time you say? Jones was only 34 when he fought Tarver the 2nd time and nearly lost their first fight. In his next fight he was knocked unconscious by journeyman Glen Johnson, and then went on to lose his 3rd fight with Tarver. In my view, Jones Jr's opponents finally figured out his unorthodox style, and he hasn't won a meaningful fight against a top level opponent since then.

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I think his unorthodox speed training and agility was the only thing that allowed him to get away with a lot of very wild stuff that many others couldn't even imagine doing at that time.
Traditionalists of solid ring work hate these types.

Once he actually believed his own hype and thought he was king he rode his merits instead of training even harder, With no traditional technique to fall back on his lack of explosiveness and still putting himself in the old positions didn't help. It was his own fault he slacked off instead he should of dropped right off.