Fair or Not? Family gets evicted from council home because son was a rioter

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Originally Posted by Mark TKO

i know what you are saying but times have changed. The playstation generation and internet age is upon us and it dominates their lives.

Was football on park in my day - matahces that lasted six hours with breaks for lunch and tea.

And to be honest I bet you would ask many a parent now who would say they would rather have their kids inside on a playstation than outside and not worrying what they were up to or if they were ok etc..

Different times

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I was born in '81. And the first playstation came out in '94 and the internet really became popular in America around 1996 (when I was 15) with America Online for the dial up. I had all that. And so did a lot of kids in my neighborhood, you can say it was a well off neighborhood financially. But one thing about this community was that parents were pro-active in their children's lives. My high school is considered to be one of the best public high schools in the nations that yearly has kids getting accepted into America's best universities like Harvard, Yale, MIT, Caltech, UCLA and other schools on their academic merits. This community has produced educated and well rounded individuals. So what was it? I say the parenting was the catalyst.

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

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Originally Posted by Mark TKO

i know what you are saying but times have changed. The playstation generation and internet age is upon us and it dominates their lives.

Was football on park in my day - matahces that lasted six hours with breaks for lunch and tea.

And to be honest I bet you would ask many a parent now who would say they would rather have their kids inside on a playstation than outside and not worrying what they were up to or if they were ok etc..

Different times

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I was born in '81. And the first playstation came out in '94 and the internet really became popular in America around 1996 (when I was 15) with America Online for the dial up. I had all that. And so did a lot of kids in my neighborhood, you can say it was a well off neighborhood financially. But one thing about this community was that parents were pro-active in their children's lives. My high school is considered to be one of the best public high schools in the nations that yearly has kids getting accepted into America's best universities like Harvard, Yale, MIT, Caltech, UCLA and other schools on their academic merits. This community has produced educated and well rounded individuals. So what was it? I say the parenting was the catalyst.

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You sound like you were from a middle class family in a middle class neighborhood. Quite different from a single parent family in a council estate in Nowhereville. Those kids grow up living quite different lives from the one you had. Good parenting clearly helps, but so do other factors. Have you been to a school in an inner city or had to grow up in an environment where there are scores of other not so good kids all congregating. It is very hard to escape that environment once you are caught up in it. Clearly there are bad parents in those environments, but there are many good ones too, but it isn't always easy to steer a kid into being a well heeled middle class type from those areas. There are so many factors at play.

I agree that good parenting helps. Obviously. But to ignore other social factors is dangerous. Schooling, policing, community, peers etc, it all plays a part. What works for one kid also might not work for another.

On saying all that though Zero Tolerance and police brutality is the key.

Kids must fear the police and teachers - it helps. And fear consequences of illegal actions

This story smells a bit bullshitty. I bet there's more to it, like they've been trying to move her into different accommodation for ages or something.

And they're not literally gonna dump her on the street. If a judge rules against her she'll probably be given 50 years to find somewhere else.

Quick search reveals she owes £2000 in rent :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

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Originally Posted by Mark TKO

i know what you are saying but times have changed. The playstation generation and internet age is upon us and it dominates their lives.

Was football on park in my day - matahces that lasted six hours with breaks for lunch and tea.

And to be honest I bet you would ask many a parent now who would say they would rather have their kids inside on a playstation than outside and not worrying what they were up to or if they were ok etc..

Different times

---

I was born in '81. And the first playstation came out in '94 and the internet really became popular in America around 1996 (when I was 15) with America Online for the dial up. I had all that. And so did a lot of kids in my neighborhood, you can say it was a well off neighborhood financially. But one thing about this community was that parents were pro-active in their children's lives. My high school is considered to be one of the best public high schools in the nations that yearly has kids getting accepted into America's best universities like Harvard, Yale, MIT, Caltech, UCLA and other schools on their academic merits. This community has produced educated and well rounded individuals. So what was it? I say the parenting was the catalyst.

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You sound like you were from a middle class family in a middle class neighborhood. Quite different from a single parent family in a council estate in Nowhereville. Those kids grow up living quite different lives from the one you had. Good parenting clearly helps, but so do other factors. Have you been to a school in an inner city or had to grow up in an environment where there are scores of other not so good kids all congregating. It is very hard to escape that environment once you are caught up in it. Clearly there are bad parents in those environments, but there are many good ones too, but it isn't always easy to steer a kid into being a well heeled middle class type from those areas. There are so many factors at play.

I agree that good parenting helps. Obviously. But to ignore other social factors is dangerous. Schooling, policing, community, peers etc, it all plays a part. What works for one kid also might not work for another.

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I knew you would use the bad environment factor to come up with yet another excuse to try and dismiss good parenting or lack of it, in fact this excuse is commonly used to shirk any type of responsibility for bad behavior such as, "Oh little 16 year old Johnny committed an armed robbery and shot 6 people dead because he grew up in a bad environment. It's not his fault or his parents, it's his environment." Here I'll post this video once again just like I did in the UK rioting thread.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvaNJ...?v=CvaNJ0mF_JM
Now, this video is of Korean immigrants during the 1992 Los Angeles riots in a very poor section of Los Angeles opening up these little corner shops that sells potato chips, milk, cigarettes, candy, etc. They have their shops being looted and destroyed during these riots, basically their livelihood right there so they went out and protected it with guns. Why? Because these shops put food on their table and managed to put their kids through college/university. When there was a huge migration wave of East Asian immigrants after the 1965 immigration laws were relaxed many of them came over here, most notably the Koreans from S. Korea and Chinese from Hong Kong since those places have yet to reach 1st world status at the time. So they basically came to America piss poor just like many other immigrant groups before them and pretty much lived in shitty neighborhoods and going to shitty run down public schools. But here's the kicker, they managed to have their kids accepted at high rates into the elite universities of America as in Yale, Harvard, Princeton, UCLA, UC Berkely, MIT, Caltech, etc. Them and their kids managed to have very low crime rates for their population despite living in bad neighborhoods and bad environment, they managed to rise up the socio-economic ladder here in America despite these circumstances. Pretty amazing isn't it? So sociologists tend to ask what was it? Well they took a look within their families and the cultural values they have, they took a look at this Confucian culture that lionizes education and respect for the law and authority.

You live in Korea right? You did notice that they heavily emphasize education right? You did notice the low crime rate there right? The same thing also applies to China and Japan. Other Confucian societies.
So basically when they immigrated to western nations in a poor and destitute state while living in a crime ridden and poor environment, their kids still manage to get into these top universities at a very high rate and after graduation they managed to hold white collar jobs to rise up from the depths of poverty. Another group, the Jews at the turn of the 20th century in America also came out of poverty by emphasizing education heavily while living in very poor conditions. The word ghetto was meant to describe their living environment during these times.

While environment plays a factor, it is minimal compared to the cultural and family values instilled within the person. To say because of bad schools, bad neighborhood, is the reason why these people are fuck ups completely ignores the lack of strong family values and ignores the cultural mindset of these people. You should also read the culture of poverty thesis.

And BTW, I did go to university with these poor East Asian students, there were a lot of them. They were mainly on financial aid, scholarships, student loans, etc. I'm too lazy to get the US Census of Bureau, but it breaks it down in detail by numbers on crime rate by ethnicity, educational attainment by ethnicity, crime rate of that ethnicity, etc. And many academic peer review journals also talk about this kind of stuff, I did a huge report of this in my sociology class many years ago on education and how different racial groups approach it.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Quick search reveals she owes £2000 in rent :rolleyes:

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and they refused six new playstations, as a down payment?

At the end of the day though, GB it IS his fault, but I don't think it falls primarily on the parents. You need to take SELF RESPONSIBILITY beyond a certain age and I would argue that this comes with the teenage years. If he commits wrong then throw the book at HIM. However, there are clearly factors at play in societies, which explains why middle class people perform better than working class people in schools and are typically more likely to 'succeed'. Kids on free meals typically perform far more poorly than their peers. These are facts and there are a variety of reasons for it. I would also argue that these people are more likely to resort to these kinds of anti social behaviour patterns. But I don't regard it as an excuse as I too am from that kind of background, but I learned from a relatively young age that the only way to escape was to study and try and better myself somehow. It didn't come from my mother nor my vanished father, it came from a realisation that I was responsible for my own future.

If you cannot display self responsibility and follow rules or laws then YOU need to pay the penalty, not your mother. However, as Fenster has said, she appears to be given the boot for a different reason so it isn't significant.

And GB, I agree that Asian societies have it better, the family unit is stronger. The kids study to an almost criminal degree at private academies and it does keep things safer. But if little Jin Su goes off and steals a motorbike (as they do), I am not going to blame his Mum. It's the little buggers fault, not his Mum. If you are old enough to steal a bike then you are old enough to pay the penalty. Even in Korea you see massive differences in the behaviour of kids according to social class definitions. They don't have mass teenage riots, but they do have their own social problems. In fact nowhere is quite like what the UK is today.

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Originally Posted by Andre

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Quick search reveals she owes £2000 in rent :rolleyes:

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and they refused six new playstations, as a down payment?

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Don't forget the 103cm Wide Screen Plasma. :rolleyes:

Having said that I think strong parenting would clearly help. But in somewhere as damaged as the UK, you need toughening up everywhere. Schools, communities, policing, everything. A strong mother alone is not going to be all that effective when it comes to a society like Britain. I'm actually quite conservative on this issue, I am not particularly liberal or namby pamby at all. But I do believe it is common sense to look at things from all points of view and clean things up from top to bottom.

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Originally Posted by miles

Having said that I think strong parenting would clearly help. But in somewhere as damaged as the UK, you need toughening up everywhere. Schools, communities, policing, everything. A strong mother alone is not going to be all that effective when it comes to a society like Britain. I'm actually quite conservative on this issue, I am not particularly liberal or namby pamby at all. But I do believe it is common sense to look at things from all points of view and clean things up from top to bottom.

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Lack of good parenting is just one of the concerns, but cultural mindset is another. Western societies like the UK and America are missing good parenting in the household and are lionizing and embracing destructive cultural mindsets. Such as rock, rap, being a bad boy, lack of emphasis on education, lack of respect for authority and elders, etc.

I did type in the other thread that I found a quote from someone in the online news section that the counter culture revolution of the '60s and their rejection of the social mores and values of the prior generation also contributed to a decaying society. I haven't looked into it yet by searching for studies. But this would make sense since the '60s was about, "Fuck the man, fuck authority, fight the power, free love, etc." Looking back it was a decade of decadence and debauchery, from illicit drug use to open sex, etc. Not to mention in America the Hayes code for movies was lifted, meaning that they can show more explicit sex scenes and violence on television and movies. You can say the 60s really changed and shifted the conservative nature of societies like America and the UK into a radically different place. And maybe what we see today is a result of discarding many of the conservative social mores beginning in the 60s about behavior and respect.

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

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Originally Posted by miles

Having said that I think strong parenting would clearly help. But in somewhere as damaged as the UK, you need toughening up everywhere. Schools, communities, policing, everything. A strong mother alone is not going to be all that effective when it comes to a society like Britain. I'm actually quite conservative on this issue, I am not particularly liberal or namby pamby at all. But I do believe it is common sense to look at things from all points of view and clean things up from top to bottom.

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Lack of good parenting is just one of the concerns, but cultural mindset is another. Western societies like the UK and America are missing good parenting in the household and are lionizing and embracing destructive cultural mindsets. Such as rock, rap, being a bad boy, lack of emphasis on education, lack of respect for authority and elders, etc.

I did type in the other thread that I found a quote from someone in the online news section that the counter culture revolution of the '60s and their rejection of the social mores and values of the prior generation also contributed to a decaying society. I haven't looked into it yet by searching for studies. But this would make sense since the '60s was about, "Fuck the man, fuck authority, fight the power, free love, etc." Looking back it was a decade of decadence and debauchery, from illicit drug use to open sex, etc. Not to mention in America the Hayes code for movies was lifted, meaning that they can show more explicit sex scenes and violence on television and movies. You can say the 60s really changed and shifted the conservative nature of societies like America and the UK into a radically different place. And maybe what we see today is a result of discarding many of the conservative social mores beginning in the 60s about behavior and respect.

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I don't really disagree with any of your views and think we of the same mindset. Totally agree.

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

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Originally Posted by miles

Having said that I think strong parenting would clearly help. But in somewhere as damaged as the UK, you need toughening up everywhere. Schools, communities, policing, everything. A strong mother alone is not going to be all that effective when it comes to a society like Britain. I'm actually quite conservative on this issue, I am not particularly liberal or namby pamby at all. But I do believe it is common sense to look at things from all points of view and clean things up from top to bottom.

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Lack of good parenting is just one of the concerns, but cultural mindset is another. Western societies like the UK and America are missing good parenting in the household and are lionizing and embracing destructive cultural mindsets. Such as rock, rap, being a bad boy, lack of emphasis on education, lack of respect for authority and elders, etc.

I did type in the other thread that I found a quote from someone in the online news section that the counter culture revolution of the '60s and their rejection of the social mores and values of the prior generation also contributed to a decaying society. I haven't looked into it yet by searching for studies. But this would make sense since the '60s was about, "Fuck the man, fuck authority, fight the power, free love, etc." Looking back it was a decade of decadence and debauchery, from illicit drug use to open sex, etc. Not to mention in America the Hayes code for movies was lifted, meaning that they can show more explicit sex scenes and violence on television and movies. You can say the 60s really changed and shifted the conservative nature of societies like America and the UK into a radically different place. And maybe what we see today is a result of discarding many of the conservative social mores beginning in the 60s about behavior and respect.

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I don't see how any of those changes were bad.

If a million people listen to a rap/rock song and one is inspired to murder because of it. He's a mental. Fact. The music/film/art isn't the problem.

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

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Originally Posted by miles

Having said that I think strong parenting would clearly help. But in somewhere as damaged as the UK, you need toughening up everywhere. Schools, communities, policing, everything. A strong mother alone is not going to be all that effective when it comes to a society like Britain. I'm actually quite conservative on this issue, I am not particularly liberal or namby pamby at all. But I do believe it is common sense to look at things from all points of view and clean things up from top to bottom.

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Lack of good parenting is just one of the concerns, but cultural mindset is another. Western societies like the UK and America are missing good parenting in the household and are lionizing and embracing destructive cultural mindsets. Such as rock, rap, being a bad boy, lack of emphasis on education, lack of respect for authority and elders, etc.

I did type in the other thread that I found a quote from someone in the online news section that the counter culture revolution of the '60s and their rejection of the social mores and values of the prior generation also contributed to a decaying society. I haven't looked into it yet by searching for studies. But this would make sense since the '60s was about, "Fuck the man, fuck authority, fight the power, free love, etc." Looking back it was a decade of decadence and debauchery, from illicit drug use to open sex, etc. Not to mention in America the Hayes code for movies was lifted, meaning that they can show more explicit sex scenes and violence on television and movies. You can say the 60s really changed and shifted the conservative nature of societies like America and the UK into a radically different place. And maybe what we see today is a result of discarding many of the conservative social mores beginning in the 60s about behavior and respect.

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I would actually argue that the long-term effects of the social movements of the 1960's were essentially a blip on the radar screen of American history and that they ultimately resulted in a shift to the right politically. At the most, they created polarization between 'left' and 'right', but the neo-con revolution and the rise of the new right, who have essentially held power in the United States since the late '60s, was a response to the movements of the 60's.

And I don;t think anyone should pretend that the 1940's or 1950's were some kind of glory days for morality. Those same movements of the 1960's were a direct result of the repression of women, minorities, homosexuals, and other groups which had occurred for centuries previous. The 1950's in America were probably great if you were a white male who aspired to work a 9-5 job, raise a family, and bang your secretary, but they were a pretty shitty time for everyone else.

I guess what I'm saying with that post is that everything is relative and that people always look back to 'the good old days', but that perception is often contradicted by reality.

If only my history degree was useful in some practical way; I wouldn't be posting on here at 10:30am.

I also think that it's too easy to just blame the parents for what is obviously a very complex social problem. Did parenting or home-life play a role in many cases? Most likely, but it can't be the only reason for the rioting. You can be raised in a perfect fashion, but if you can't find work or are being oppressed etc. you might act out with violence if tens of thousands of your peers are doing so.