Just so we're clear, Mr.140, he is a two division champion and the lineal middleweight champion. Also, when he fought Paul Williams, no one would fight Paul Williams. Pacquiao included.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
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Just so we're clear, Mr.140, he is a two division champion and the lineal middleweight champion. Also, when he fought Paul Williams, no one would fight Paul Williams. Pacquiao included.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Why the hell would Pac fight Williams?Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratJust so we're clear, Mr.140, he is a two division champion and the lineal middleweight champion. Also, when he fought Paul Williams, no one would fight Paul Williams. Pacquiao included.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Although easily forgotten, there was a time not so long ago when Williams was the feared guy between 147 and 154. Pac was fighting at 147. Arum and Roach came out and said they would not fight Paul Williams even though they were fighting at or around the same weight class because Paul Williams was too big.Quote:
Originally Posted by jabvargas24Why the hell would Pac fight Williams?Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratJust so we're clear, Mr.140, he is a two division champion and the lineal middleweight champion. Also, when he fought Paul Williams, no one would fight Paul Williams. Pacquiao included.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Floyd was lucky not be trailing by 5 points after four rounds against Zab Judah if I recall. He had a legit knockdown ruled a slip, he lost the first 4 rounds or so. Things is he adapted, came back and dominated.Quote:
Originally Posted by 0james0
Even a great fighter isn't going to dominate every round of every fight. What matters is that they win.
I would argue it's far better for a fighter to start slowly, and look bad early but then turn it around and get better as the fight goes on than to experience the reverse a la Jermain Taylor, Oscar, Cory Spinks, Zab Judah etc. He's shown he has a great engine, can keep going, change plans mid fight and maintains his power for the whole fight.
Calzaghe had many performances like that.
Wait a second there. Froch? You mean the guy who couldn't even beat Mikkel Kessler like a year ago (in what was one of the sloppiest, most amateur-hour fights I've ever seen at a supposedly "elite" level)? And who got a gift decision over Dirrell? You're mentioning him in the same breath as Manny, Floyd, Wlad and BHop? That is quite comical.Quote:
Originally Posted by rosco1984
Regarding Martinez and what, if anything, this fight says about his P4P ranking, I agree with those who say it shouldn't affect it at all. Barker was super defensive and would have presented a hard challenge for anyone to look great against, but he also had zero chance of winning the fight because he wasn't offensively active. Once he started opening up a little, Martinez KO'd him. That was about the best anyone could do in that situation. It's a more extreme example, but look at Manny's low connect percentage against the 100% defensive posture of Clottey -- are you going to say he deserved to be demoted because of that? He didn't even close it with a stoppage.
Skill and speedwise, Martinez still looks more impressive to me than pretty much anyone other than Mayweather, Pac, Donaire, and maybe Wlad. If Gamboa can clean up his lapses/defense a bit and stick around undefeated for another couple years, he might be up there too at that point.
I'd definitely throw Andre Ward in that mix too. He's dominated and has beaten almost as good fighters as Martinez with one sided beatdowns of Kessler and Abraham.Quote:
Originally Posted by shzaWait a second there. Froch? You mean the guy who couldn't even beat Mikkel Kessler like a year ago (in what was one of the sloppiest, most amateur-hour fights I've ever seen at a supposedly "elite" level)? And who got a gift decision over Dirrell? You're mentioning him in the same breath as Manny, Floyd, Wlad and BHop? That is quite comical.Quote:
Originally Posted by rosco1984
Regarding Martinez and what, if anything, this fight says about his P4P ranking, I agree with those who say it shouldn't affect it at all. Barker was super defensive and would have presented a hard challenge for anyone to look great against, but he also had zero chance of winning the fight because he wasn't offensively active. Once he started opening up a little, Martinez KO'd him. That was about the best anyone could do in that situation. It's a more extreme example, but look at Manny's low connect percentage against the 100% defensive posture of Clottey -- are you going to say he deserved to be demoted because of that? He didn't even close it with a stoppage.
Skill and speedwise, Martinez still looks more impressive to me than pretty much anyone other than Mayweather, Pac, Donaire, and maybe Wlad. If Gamboa can clean up his lapses/defense a bit and stick around undefeated for another couple years, he might be up there too at that point.
If he beats Carl Froch he has to go straight into the top 10, and quite high imo.
I can't see anybody beating him in the forseeable future at all. Also, and it's only my opinion of course, but in a p4p fight I think he beats Martinez. He's possibly the next Bhop and likely to be as under appreciated too.
Rant he was not even lienal champ at 154 and lost it to Paul at that weight so after 50 fights you look at what he beat before Paul. Now i am saying that at 160 he has had pretty god run but besides Pavlik who was not even ranked in top ten anymore done really fuck all after the Hopkins lose dont bring Rubio up. So yea i say pretty weak resume compared to years before it and i think you could put Hopkins now even above him with out the Dawson win and the brothers grim for there reign at there weight class.
right before the Williams fight (which IMO he won the first time around), he beat Cintron twice the same night (KO and UD) then was robbed and given a bullshit draw, he also beat Bunema who was solid at the time, also don't forget that at that same time guys like Forrest (RIP) wanted nothing to do with the guy, so he moved up to 160 and fought Pavlik who regardless to his lone loss at 170 against B-Hop was still THE LINEAL MIDDLEWEIGHT CHAMPION, and although being the underdog Sergio clearly beat up the bigger man, he then avenged a controversial loss to Williams with a stunning 2nd round KO, a brutal KO against a guy who was feared due to his size and ability to take a punch, he followed it up by beating the Ring Jr Middleweight Champion Dzinziruk, and then now after no one would take a fight against him (Cotto, Margarito, Sturm, Mayweather, nor Pacquiao) he settled for the unknown, undefeated Barker whom he dominated and KO'dQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
don't try to re-write history just to help sell your argument, the fact still remains that Martinez is one of the most talented and most avoided fighters in boxing today, and the fact that he's bending over backwards to make fights with the #1 or #2 p4p guys and they pretend not to even know he exists only solidifies the claim that he's that damn good
Don't even consider Cintron much of win chocked every big fight he has had so that does not help Martinez case for me anyhow. I am not rewriting anything he lost the Paul Williams fight first time around and the Pavlik he did beat was a drunk and had just had his soul crushed not to long ago by Hopkins. He was pretty shock up by the lose and still don't think he has come to terms with it. Martinez is def in the top ten but i say his rank is not solid i could put Hopkins even with out Dawson above him and not to far fetched to think the Kiltschos are up there since they haven't lost a round in how long now. I do not think Martinez record as a whole is close to them he been hot hes last few fights and the big names have kinda come to the end of there rope that were up there.
My thoughts at Martinez have nothing to do with the fact he just beat a British boxer. Couldn't care less if he fought Stone Cold Steve Austin. I still don't after what I've seen rank him that highly.
I think if he steps up a weight he gets beat a few times. I think if he steps down and fights the people being rumoured he gets beat. King in his weight, but in modern boxing one weight isn't enough to get a top 3 mention usually unless you are really special.
Martinez is ranked where he is based on merit, in the last 18 months he became the Lineal/Ring Middleweight Champion, and defended his titles 3 times, winning each fight by KO, he was also voted 2010 fighter of the year. Pretty goddamn impressive if you ask me, like it or not based on what he's managed to accomplish, Martinez is more then worthy of being ranked the #3 P4P fighter in the world, actually I have him at #2.Quote:
Originally Posted by 0james0
Hyping Frog, that flailing guy from Nottingham, is little bit comical. Just like any british "worldclass" soccer player. Big media headlines, not so great performance in action. Defeat in Copenhagen to slow Kessler is hardly a merit. Just like that very questionable "win" against Dirrell at home ring. Folk in UK are thundering about highclass supermiddleweight but i've strong doubts if Kessler, Frog and Ward are really better than Martinez. Perhaps only guy in that division who likely would beat Maravilla is actually Bute, not these anglosaxon hyped "super six" totems.Quote:
Originally Posted by rosco1984
This post as as biased as the one you are criticising, you've just swung like a mighty pendulum the other way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matias64Hyping Frog, that flailing guy from Nottingham, is little bit comical. Just like any british "worldclass" soccer player. Big media headlines, not so great performance in action. Defeat in Copenhagen to slow Kessler is hardly a merit. Just like that very questionable "win" against Dirrell at home ring. Folk in UK are thundering about highclass supermiddleweight but i've strong doubts if Kessler, Frog and Ward are really better than Martinez. Perhaps only guy in that division who likely would beat Maravilla is actually Bute, not these anglosaxon hyped "super six" totems.Quote:
Originally Posted by rosco1984
Firstly, Froch is not making soccer style massive headlines in Britain, he is barely known in the UK and woefully under appreciate. He's like the Mark Cavendish of British boxing, tremendously succesful but nobody knows who he is.
Secondly, there are barely more than 3 or 4 fighters on the planet who have fought the same calibre of fighters Froch has fought in the past few years.
In succesvie fights he has beaten Jean Pascal, knocked out Jermain Taylor, edged a close fight with Andre Dirrell, lost a close fight with Kessler, dominated Arthur Abraham and then beaten Glen Johnson. His next fight will be against Andre Ward.
How many fighters have fought better competition than that in their last 7 fights?
The fact he has only one loss in that time, and that a razor thin decision in a fight overseas is highly commendable.
You make a fool of yourself to suggest otherwise.
Froch is a very talented fighter.
Is he as good as Martinez though p4p? I think it would have to be argued probably not, although on resume he's hardly far behind. An upset win over Andre Ward should see him in the top 10 4p4 on merit. A very tough and relentless fighter with a will to match his chin. Froch will be hard to beat.
I think people misunderstand who Martinez is as a fighter, he's not Gamboa, he's not Mayorga. He's a patient boxer who carefully breaks his mark down round by round. As to the question of whether or not he still merits a number 3 p4p rating, sure he does, what has he done to lose it? There are arguments to be made for a few guys out there, Wlad for sure, Donaire is on the right track, but he needs more quality wins, the winner of the S6 surely will deserve consideration, B-Hop should at least be in the discussion.
I already have Froch in my top 10. His level of competition is outstanding.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboThis post as as biased as the one you are criticising, you've just swung like a mighty pendulum the other way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matias64Hyping Frog, that flailing guy from Nottingham, is little bit comical. Just like any british "worldclass" soccer player. Big media headlines, not so great performance in action. Defeat in Copenhagen to slow Kessler is hardly a merit. Just like that very questionable "win" against Dirrell at home ring. Folk in UK are thundering about highclass supermiddleweight but i've strong doubts if Kessler, Frog and Ward are really better than Martinez. Perhaps only guy in that division who likely would beat Maravilla is actually Bute, not these anglosaxon hyped "super six" totems.Quote:
Originally Posted by rosco1984
Firstly, Froch is not making soccer style massive headlines in Britain, he is barely known in the UK and woefully under appreciate. He's like the Mark Cavendish of British boxing, tremendously succesful but nobody knows who he is.
Secondly, there are barely more than 3 or 4 fighters on the planet who have fought the same calibre of fighters Froch has fought in the past few years.
In succesvie fights he has beaten Jean Pascal, knocked out Jermain Taylor, edged a close fight with Andre Dirrell, lost a close fight with Kessler, dominated Arthur Abraham and then beaten Glen Johnson. His next fight will be against Andre Ward.
How many fighters have fought better competition than that in their last 7 fights?
The fact he has only one loss in that time, and that a razor thin decision in a fight overseas is highly commendable.
You make a fool of yourself to suggest otherwise.
Froch is a very talented fighter.
Is he as good as Martinez though p4p? I think it would have to be argued probably not, although on resume he's hardly far behind. An upset win over Andre Ward should see him in the top 10 4p4 on merit. A very tough and relentless fighter with a will to match his chin. Froch will be hard to beat.