Re: Did the eye save cotto?
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Originally Posted by
LobowolfXXX
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Originally Posted by
miles
There were just 2 differences in this fight.
1) Cotto has learned to clinch (which I despise)
2) Margarito's eye is fixed, but gets easily swollen as a result of surgery
Sorry if I'm misremembering your posts in other threads (and I'm too lazy to look back through the multi-page related threads), but I thought your position on Cotto-Margarito 1 was neutral as to whether or not Margarito cheated. If that's the case, you can't really say that there were "just" two differences in this fight. Unless you've concluded that the first fight was on the up-and-up, you have to at least allow for the possibility that there was a pretty big third difference, too.
Unless Cotto wants to make a legal case for it, then I am accepting the first fight as a valid win. Margarito attempted to cheat against Mosley, we don't know if he did against Cotto.
Cotto's face looked the same after nine in both fights. It's just that Cotto adapted with the clinch and moved more. He even evaded the topic somewhat when talking with Kellerman.
This fight makes me lean towards the notion that wraps were not an issue for the first fight.
Re: Did the eye save cotto?
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Originally Posted by
p4pking
I'm not sure Miles actually watches boxing anymore, just decides he likes one fighter and not the other then tries to be clever about it after the fact.
Though familiar with the fine art of sophistry, I am just trying to appraise how I feel here. I know that my view is an unpopular one concerning this fight, but it's just what it is.
Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing a final fight a year down the line. It is very entertaining seeing these two square off. Much better than 90% of the fights out there.
It's that eye that makes me unable to really regard Cotto as the better fighter. He has lucked out on getting damaged flesh as part of the package. Sure, Margarito's camp were stupid for going 12 against Manny, but it puts a bit of a dampener on the whole 'which fighter is better' argument.
Sure Cotto is the popular winner and fought a great fight, but is he really 'better' than Margarito. I'm not so sure that he is.
It's just a view and people can take or leave it as they see fit. I don't really mind.
Re: Did the eye save cotto?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
p4pking
I'm not sure Miles actually watches boxing anymore, just decides he likes one fighter and not the other then tries to be clever about it after the fact.
Though familiar with the fine art of sophistry, I am just trying to appraise how I feel here. I know that my view is an unpopular one concerning this fight, but it's just what it is.
Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing a final fight a year down the line. It is very entertaining seeing these two square off. Much better than 90% of the fights out there.
It's that eye that makes me unable to really regard Cotto as the better fighter. He has lucked out on getting damaged flesh as part of the package. Sure, Margarito's camp were stupid for going 12 against Manny, but it puts a bit of a dampener on the whole 'which fighter is better' argument.
Sure Cotto is the popular winner and fought a great fight, but is he really 'better' than Margarito. I'm not so sure that he is.
It's just a view and people can take or leave it as they see fit. I don't really mind.
Hah, fair enough and didn't mean to lash out really. I think its more a case of Margarito being a very tough matchup for Cotto, Miguel can't afford to take liberties with a guy like that and if he had to box all the way through to win then good on him. Imo he is certainly a better fighter overall, as any common opponents they share would certainly indicate as well.
Re: Did the eye save cotto?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
p4pking
I'm not sure Miles actually watches boxing anymore, just decides he likes one fighter and not the other then tries to be clever about it after the fact.
Though familiar with the fine art of sophistry, I am just trying to appraise how I feel here. I know that my view is an unpopular one concerning this fight, but it's just what it is.
Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing a final fight a year down the line. It is very entertaining seeing these two square off. Much better than 90% of the fights out there.
It's that eye that makes me unable to really regard Cotto as the better fighter.
He has lucked out on getting damaged flesh as part of the package. Sure, Margarito's camp were stupid for going 12 against Manny, but it puts a bit of a dampener on the whole 'which fighter is better' argument.
Sure Cotto is the popular winner and fought a great fight, but is he really 'better' than Margarito. I'm not so sure that he is.
It's just a view and people can take or leave it as they see fit. I don't really mind.
I respect your opinion/stance. No problem with it since I believe you're being geniune and not just a die hard tard. But to be fair its not like Cotto is the same flesh either. Cotto has been brutally beaten twice (possibly once with plaster) and I'm sure his face marks and cuts a lot easier nowaday. Not to mention his confidence and chin probably have a few cracks in it now also.
Re: Did the eye save cotto?
^^. Not to mention the fact that Cotto has fought both of the guys that did so much damage to Margarito, not fairing quite so badly himself, being the better fighter ;)
Re: Did the eye save cotto?
Yeah, I'm not even a fan of Margarito really and probably prefer Cotto as a fighter, but I see no point in building up the whole 'Saint Cotto got his revenge upon the Evil Satan' nonsense. It's silly. It was a decent fight and Cotto outboxed his man, but clearly there were handicaps in place. And I agree that Cotto is partially damaged too, but you can't really compare broken orbitals and eye surgery with just a beat down or two. If Margarito had done to Cotto what Pac did to himself then for sure I would be more suspicious, but Cotto simply got Margarito all wrong last time out and paid the penalty.
Cotto fought better than Margarito against Mosley, but the same is questionable concerning the Pac fights and more so concerning Clottey. They are both decent fighters with good wins on their resume. In terms of styles they are a gruelling match and it is fun watching them. Just a darn shame about old 'one eyed Willie'. Not because I feel sorry for Margarito, but because the boxing fan in me wants to see the best against the best. Handicaps only detract and I think that was the case last weekend.
Re: Did the eye save cotto?
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Originally Posted by
miles
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Originally Posted by
ElTerribleMorales
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Originally Posted by
miles
There were just 2 differences in this fight.
1) Cotto has learned to clinch (which I despise)
2) Margarito's eye is fixed, but gets easily swollen as a result of surgery
I still regard Margarito as the better fighter over 12. I would also like to see a final matchup with Margarito having one more fight just to see if he can get through a fight without turning into 'one eyed Willie'.
how the hell is Margarito the better fighter when he barely won a single round in the fight and hadn't hurt Cotto or landed anything of note in any round of the rematch :-X
Because he won the first fight and lost this one on a technical decision. He has beaten Cotto more soundly than Cotto has beaten him.
Margarito rarely does massive amounts in the early going and this was no different. Physically the final 3 is where Cotto sinks. He did it against Pac/Mosley/Margarito and that's just the way Cotto is. However, it is the final 3 that is the true barometer and over that stretch I don't think Cotto can take rounds off of Margarito and Margarito would have his impact at 7 and beyond with a good eye.
Cotto was lucky he got Margarito post surgery. Margarito is all wrong for Cotto and I still believe that.
Cotto did KO Mayorga in the 12th though, and he also outgutted and outfought Clottey down the stretch.
He most likely would have been able to keep Margarito off and win on points, but its possible Margarito could have got to him.
I didn't like the stoppage, but Margarito's eye was swollen shut. And Cotto boxed very well, no denying that.
Re: Did the eye save cotto?
No the eye didn't save him, Miguel Cotto pitched a shut out.
Re: Did the eye save cotto?
The eye was the biggest factor in his victory, yes..
Re: Did the eye save cotto?
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Originally Posted by
FinitoElDinamita
The eye was the biggest factor in his victory, yes..
Just like Margarito's loaded gloves were for him.
Re: Did the eye save cotto?
Until something can be proven in court, Margarito was innocent in their first bout.. Margarito beat him through durablity, pressure, and uppercuts...
Re: Did the eye save cotto?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FinitoElDinamita
Until something can be proven in court, Margarito was innocent in their first bout.. Margarito beat him through durablity, pressure, and uppercuts...
Just look at the handwraps the gauze doesn't break like that, there was obviously something very wrong with those handwraps. Miguel Cotto was able to push Antonio Margarito back, and stand his ground later in the fight. It's obvious Antonio Margarito's punches had nowhere the same effect. And if Antonio Margarito attemped to cheat vs an aging Shane Mosley, a fight in which he was a pretty solid favourite. You don't think he would of cheated against an undefeated 2 weight champion in his prime ?
Re: Did the eye save cotto?
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Originally Posted by
ICB
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Originally Posted by
FinitoElDinamita
Until something can be proven in court, Margarito was innocent in their first bout.. Margarito beat him through durablity, pressure, and uppercuts...
Just look at the handwraps the gauze doesn't break like that, there was obviously something very wrong with those handwraps. Miguel Cotto was able to push Antonio Margarito back, and stand his ground later in the fight. It's obvious Antonio Margarito's punches had nowhere the same effect. And if Antonio Margarito attemped to cheat vs an aging Shane Mosley, a fight in which he was a pretty solid favourite.
You don't think he would of cheated against an undefeated 2 weight champion in his prime ?
Nope because Cotto has been severely hurt by lesser fighters prior to their bout.. Ndou pushed him in the late rounds, Corley had him on queer street, even a green Torres almost got him out of there, and Judah did the same until he was low blowed out of desperation..
With that said, Margarito had no reason to worry about Cotto to a point where he would have loaded his gloves.
People make him out to be an ordinary puncher without plaster, but it's not true.. You can just tell by the way he throws his punches that he's a hard hitter regardless..
Re: Did the eye save cotto?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FinitoElDinamita
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ICB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FinitoElDinamita
Until something can be proven in court, Margarito was innocent in their first bout.. Margarito beat him through durablity, pressure, and uppercuts...
Just look at the handwraps the gauze doesn't break like that, there was obviously something very wrong with those handwraps. Miguel Cotto was able to push Antonio Margarito back, and stand his ground later in the fight. It's obvious Antonio Margarito's punches had nowhere the same effect. And if Antonio Margarito attemped to cheat vs an aging Shane Mosley, a fight in which he was a pretty solid favourite.
You don't think he would of cheated against an undefeated 2 weight champion in his prime ?
Nope because Cotto has been severely hurt by lesser fighters prior to their bout.. Ndou pushed him in the late rounds, Corley had him on queer street, even a green Torres almost got him out of there, and Judah did the same until he was low blowed out of desperation..
With that said, Margarito had no reason to worry about Cotto to a point where he would have loaded his gloves.
People make him out to be an ordinary puncher without plaster, but it's not true.. You can just tell by the way he throws his punches that he's a hard hitter regardless..
Actually Antonio Margarito throws alot of arm punches, he don't really throw his punches with alot of technique or bodyweight behind them. He's just very tough and is able to walkthrough opponent's shots and wear them down with sheer pressure.
As for your other statements most of those fights were at 140, where Miguel Cotto was weight drained. When he moved up he was alot more studier, and was coming off an impressive win over Shane Mosley, a guy who totally destroyed Antonio Margarito.
So why would Antonio Margarito attempt to cheat, against a guy he was heavily favoured to beat aka Shane Mosley. And not cheat in a fight where he was the underdog ? that doesn't even make sense.
And it's pretty obvious just looking at the evidence, Antonio Margarito is a cheater. The bloodstain on the handwraps, the gauze breaking which doesn't break which means it wasn't gauze.
The fact he pretty much hasn't won a round, against any good opponent since he was exposed. Or hasn't been as effective with his punches, i mean he couldn't even really dent a journeyman like Roberto Garcia.
I don't know why anyone defends Antonio Margarito, i bet the real Mexican greats are looking at him in disgust. He showed no remorse and acted like a complete jackass.
