HW prospects..

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Wlad has had 3 rematches: Chris Byrd, Lamon Brewster, & Tony Thompson and even Wlad has admitted he doesn't WANT to fight Thompson because he's already beaten him, but in order to keep all his belts he has to.

ALSO The Klitschko era is no less different than many of the other heavyweight eras where there was just 1 (or in this case 2 great fighters....yes they are great). Joe Louis' era was poor, Marciano's era was poor, Jack Johnson's era was poor, Jack Dempsey's era was poor, the Baer-Braddock years were lean, Larry Holmes' era was bad...wouldn't have been as bad if Larry was older & fought with Ali, Frazier, & Foreman, or if he was younger and guys like Witherspoon, Snipes, et al were more experienced, hell there are extremely few cases of really great eras there's Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Norton, Lyle and there's Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis, Bowe, Golota, Ruddock, etc.

The point is The Klitschko's are great champions and they can't control who they have to fight against. Wlad wanted Povetkin or Arreola but Povetkin will NEVER fight Wlad and Arreola will be thought of as "washed up" just because of a loss to Vitali & Adamek and it shouldn't be the case, he's a good fighter. People are too fucking picky these days.

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I know you're a devoted fan of the Klitschkos. I have no dislike for them, trust me. But you're being a bit blind with your devotion. You won't admit that this is probably the shittiest time period in the history of the HW division, due mostly to the riff-raff that poses as heavyweight fighters nowadays. Why do I say that? Because on top of being mostly "out-of-shape" tubs of lard... most of them come into the ring scared to get KO'ed. It's not a damn sporting event. It's a modern day Christians vs. lions match.

Not only that. This comes at a time when the HW division is needed the most, in order to bring more fans to boxing and counteract this new MMA craze that is taking fans away. Because as you surely know... at least I hope you do... as the heavyweight division goes... so does the popularity of boxing. At least for the casual fan, not the hardcore fans like us.

Just once I'd like someone to go against their biases and say:
"You know... you're right. The HW division IS the shits. What could I have been thinking?"

Tito no offense but u are talking nonsense! The division is thriving and is just as good as ever!)

We all know a motivated povetkin and a fully fit chagaev (both gold medallists, in fact ruslan beat felix savon twice!) would slot well into any era let alone the klitschkos! We all know slick southpaw world champ's ibragimov and byrd would too (go watch them against tua, golota, holy and briggs!) If fatass solis gets himself in proper shape he will pick up a belt post klitschko too no doubt...

You wanna talk bad eras?? Try larry holmes'....tim witherspoon (a fight most thought holmes lost,badly!) had fought 15 fights, Leon Spinks had a 10-2-2 record when he fought holmes, james Smith was 14-1, ossie Ocasio 13 fights, David Bey had 14-0-1, Marvis Frazier had 10 fights etc and lets be honest larry lost to bummy carl williams too....

Now A slick historian may tell you that he defeated 5 world champions and was a dynamite champion himself. Let’s look at that:

A.Ken Norton was not a World Champion. He was given a belt (WBC) and lost it in his first defense against Holmes.

B.Muhammad Ali was waaaayyyy past his prime and nobody really gives Holmes credit for that victory.

C.Leon Spinks? that fact that a man who had half a dozen profesional fights became the ring mag and WBA champ tells you everything! Larry's main protaganist was gerry cooney a man who suffered with alcohol and drug dependancy for years during his career ffs!

spinks was 6 -1, yes all of 6 -1 when he beat ali for the ring and WBA titles,he was 10-2-2 when he challenged holmes!!

http://www.bestboxingblog.com/wp-con...ls-cooney1.jpg

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Wlad has had 3 rematches: Chris Byrd, Lamon Brewster, & Tony Thompson

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You forgot peter.

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Originally Posted by THE PHILOSOPHER

Tito no offense but u are talking nonsense! The division is thriving and is just as good as ever!)

We all know a motivated povetkin and a fully fit chagaev (both gold medallists, in fact ruslan beat felix savon twice!) would slot well into any era let alone the klitschkos! We all know slick southpaw world champ's ibragimov and byrd would too (go watch them against tua, golota, holy and briggs!) If fatass solis gets himself in proper shape he will pick up a belt post klitschko too no doubt...

You wanna talk bad eras?? Try larry holmes'....tim witherspoon (a fight most thought holmes lost,badly!) had fought 15 fights, Leon Spinks had a 10-2-2 record when he fought holmes, james Smith was 14-1, ossie Ocasio 13 fights, David Bey had 14-0-1, Marvis Frazier had 10 fights etc and lets be honest larry lost to bummy carl williams too....

Now A slick historian may tell you that he defeated 5 world champions and was a dynamite champion himself. Let’s look at that:

A.Ken Norton was not a World Champion. He was given a belt (WBC) and lost it in his first defense against Holmes.

B.Muhammad Ali was waaaayyyy past his prime and nobody really gives Holmes credit for that victory.

C.Leon Spinks? that fact that a man who had half a dozen profesional fights became the ring mag and WBA champ tells you everything! Larry's main protaganist was gerry cooney a man who suffered with alcohol and drug dependancy for years during his career ffs!

spinks was 6 -1, yes all of 6 -1 when he beat ali for the ring and WBA titles,he was 10-2-2 when he challenged holmes!!

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Has Wlad fought Povetkin? No. Also, you mention Ibragimov and Byrd. I'll ignore Byrd for the purpose of this argument. Byrd is shit to me, although he's got his fans. A shit heavyweight, who honestly should've never ventured beyond light heavy. Ibragimov..... yes..... I seem to recall the "fight" between Wlad and the Sultan. In all likelihood the most BORING fight the division has ever seen. A pawing-fest by Wlad, and a timid Ibragimov. I fell asleep 28 times during the fight.

Oh.... and Solis. IF, the "fatass" gets himself in shape, like you say. Hardly a ringing endorsement on the state of the division, wouldn't you say?

I'm sorry, but I've watched enough Wlad fights to know that for some reason, no matter how "decent" (tongue-in-cheek) the opponent's resume.... they all seem to climb into the ring like the prisoner being taken to the gas chamber. And they fight like that, too.

Now... you compare Wlad's era with that of Larry Holmes. First, let me make this disclaimer perfectly clear. I am the world's biggest Holmes hater. Can't stand the guy... never could. But one thing is hating the guy, and another is hearing someone compare Holmes' career with Wlad's. How many memorable fights has Wlad been in? How many memorable fights was Holmes in? End of point. No comparison whatsoever. And no... I don't count his win over Muhammed Ali at all. That was a travesty of a boxing match. It probably caused Ali much of his unfortunate disease. The rest of his career and opponents are far superior to Wlad's.

I stick by my previous assessment.

"Hardly a ringing endorsement on the state of the division, wouldn't you say"

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Gp4b8omHw2...E/s1600/14.jpg

http://www.usnews.com/dbimages/maste...108frazier.jpg

http://watchmojo.com/liveBlogs/blog_...efrazier68.jpg

http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/526/joefrazier.jpg

http://boxingmemories.com/wp-content...nier-solis.jpg

http://kozmedia.com/wp-content/uploa...o-solis-st.jpgSolis is a fighter who would be more effective if he dropped 15lbs, it is hardly a daming endightment on the division! It is an issue for solis and solis alone. However it is clear he is still an effective fighter (only losing to vitali) and i have seen contenders in all the era's that make solis look practically ripped! Frazier was hardly mr olympia, and foreman looked muscular for about 3 years lol:

http://suckerpunchboxing.webs.com/Foreman.jpg

http://boxingmemories.com/wp-content...ge-Foreman.jpg

Here he is getting beat up by jimmy young in 77:

http://ebid.s3.amazonaws.com/upload_...64-26511-3.jpg



"they are boring" Yeah some of the there fights may be boring but that is because the klitschko style is too effective, they get the job done, they bummify there opponents, you should not judge there opponents on there fights with the klitschko brothers rather go watch how they earned that shot in the first place! Top 5 of this era vs the top 5 of holmes....Wlad (linear champ, gold medallist) vitali (3x hw champ, never been down or ever really outboxed) povetkin (multiple gold medallist) great chin, top fighter! Byrd (2x champ) defensive whizz made tua and holy look inept (tua would fuckin anihilate 95% of holmes opposition, does holmes have a better win than prime tua?) chagaev, again great pedigree, durable as hell. Prime wlad would beat holmes (sorry but he would, holmes struggled time and time again with men prime wlad would own!) Vitali would anihilate cooney, byrd would outbox shavers (would u like me to educate me on earnie and his style and record?) Chagaev v spinks would be a close fight, however id favour ruslan.

I know most 'casual' boxing fans want their heavyweights getting hit, coming forward and going for KO's Caveman style! The style, attitude, and demeanor of the Klitschko's make them less likely to be massive stars in the US. Wlad and Vitali have too much respect to act in the manor that Floyd Mayweather Jr. or Roy Jones Jr. act, and their fighting styles don't make up for it.

Some of you have short attention spans and it takes constant action for the non-boxing majority to be intrigued, they need lots of bells and whistles and the Klitschko's just don't have those bells and whistles. Hilarious you say holmes opposition was better, the belts were changing hands more often than a 14 year old changes her underwear, it was an era fuelled by coke and holmes ended it by losing to a LHW twice! Not to mention it was spearheded by a convicted murderer i.e don king GTFO! It was a terrible era overrun with bums...

Cooney:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_kZsRQo4Qzo...s400/7001c.jpg

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/fotos/cooney44.jpg


Douglas:

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images...0067_front.jpg

http://www.dlife.com/diabetes/export...er_Douglas.jpg


Now let's get real...solis is hardly 'A' typical of the majority of fighters of this era is he:


Kingpin:

http://www.boxingletstalk.com/wp-con...in-Johnson.jpg


Haye:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/m...e_1469200c.jpg


Two 40 yr old veterans:


http://rightcrossentertainment.com/h...Weighinnew.jpg


Two of this eras best:

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0320...o_byrd_600.jpg

Speaking of passing David Haye before mentioning the Klitschkos. :cool:

http://www.doghouseboxing.com/Media/SamuelPeter_Big.jpg

http://www.braggingrightscorner.com/...par_sjones.jpg

http://cdn7.wn.com/pd/a7/55/6155d1a5...1a3_grande.jpg

http://nigeriaworld.com/images/news/...ames-toney.jpg

Can u honestly envision prime peter vs i.e oscar bonavena or randall cobb lol

You can hate on Wlad all you want, but he's had 12 successful title defenses, he's a lock for the Hall of Fame, and he'll be a Top 10 All-Time Heavyweight champion by the end of his career. He's 19-2 with 16 KO's in Championship fights that's very respectible no matter the era. Who did Holmes fight that Wlad wouldn't beat? Holmes got dumped on his ass by lesser fighters than Wlad that's for certain.

I like how all this boils down to a "weak era"....well Wlad wins doesn't he? What more do you want? I'm certain a lot of guys want a Dempsey/Tyson-esque 1st round KO every single fight but that (and I'm sorry if I offend anyone) is fucking stupid, Wlad doesn't fight like Dempsey or Tyson, Wlad fights like Wlad and Wlad wins like Wlad so why try to do anything different? People don't ask Lebron James to play like Karl Malone you know, you don't ask Ichiro to hit like Babe Ruth, or R.A. Dickey to pitch like Nolan Ryan. As for his opponents Wlad can only fight who is out there, he can't help it if they don't train or if they don't come to fight....what Wlad's opponents do isn't Wlad's fault. Wlad ain't the one training those guys he just gets paidf to beat their asses and that's what he does. Also all this "The Klitschko's are boring" bullshit needs to stop, 30,000 people watched him KO Tony Thompson (again) in Switzerland, 50,000 watched him stop Eddie Chambers and Ruslan Chagaev....so if he's sooo fucking boring why are all these fans still buying tickets? He does well on TV in Europe as well....certainly I would rather he fight in the US, but Jesus it makes $$$ sense to fight in Europe when you're drawing a gate like that!

Hate on the guy all you like it doesn't change the fact that he is one of the most dominant heavyweight champions OF ALL TIME....which puts him in the company of Louis, Ali, Marciano, Lennox Lewis, Larry Holmes, Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield et al....all the hate in the world can't wipe away the man's record

This is a "no-win" argument. One side loves the Klitschkos, and will go to great lengths to talk up the division. All of a sudden, fighters like Byrd, Austin, Solis, Thompson.... are world-beaters. And there's little anyone can do but either agree or disagree with the argument. Too subjective.

The other side hates the Klitschkos for being boring, and blame the Klitschkos themselves for the state of the heavyweight division, like it's their fault. The fact that most opponents enter the ring against Wlad shitting their pants is somehow Wlad's fault.

I am neither. I think of myself as completely objective on the matter. Not a Klitschko hater..... but realistic enough to not be blinded by their dominance and recognize some hardcore facts. Facts such as:

1. Obviously arguing about the quality of Wlad's opponents is fruitless. Wlad fans will contend they are as good as any other era (cough)...... whereas Wlad haters will say the opponents are garbage. I'm not a Wlad hater, but I side with the haters on this particular point. However........

2. One thing that CANNOT be argued is that the quality of fights themselves has totally dropped in the Klitschko era. Again Wlad fans will differ, but they are kidding themselves. What brings fans to heavyweight fights? Quality of fights. Give and take. Punching and counter-punching. Epic battles. How many of these battles has Wlad been in? Answer: ZILCH. End of discussion. Is this Wlad's fault? Hell no. If he can take the "W" and go home unscathed, by pawing at an opponent cowering in fear (see: David Haye)..... then why should he risk bodily injury? Fair enough. Is it exciting for boxing fans? Not this boxing fan.

3. Put down the opponents in Holmes' era. I don't care. Like I said, I am a Larry Holmes hater. Can't stand the guy. But he was in some epic battles which brought people to boxing. But will any blind Klitschko fan concede this point? Of course not!! They'll point to some far-fetched reason as to why this is untrue. But you know what? I'm gonna make a poll out of it. Yeah... that's what I'll do.

4. Is talking down the quality of Wlad's opponents or his fights, denying Wlad's greatness or place in boxing history? Of course the hell not!! Again, I'm capable of separating one thing from the other. Are you? Wlad fans? Probably not. Yes, Wlad is great. Yes, Wlad will be in the HOF. Etc, etc, etc. Has this era been good for boxing or has it brought new U.S. fans to the HW division? NO.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

This is a "no-win" argument. One side loves the Klitschkos, and will go to great lengths to talk up the division. All of a sudden, fighters like Byrd, Austin, Solis, Thompson.... are world-beaters. And there's little anyone can do but either agree or disagree with the argument. Too subjective.

The other side hates the Klitschkos for being boring, and blame the Klitschkos themselves for the state of the heavyweight division, like it's their fault. The fact that most opponents enter the ring against Wlad shitting their pants is somehow Wlad's fault.

I am neither. I think of myself as completely objective on the matter. Not a Klitschko hater..... but realistic enough to not be blinded by their dominance and recognize some hardcore facts. Facts such as:

1. Obviously arguing about the quality of Wlad's opponents is fruitless. Wlad fans will contend they are as good as any other era (cough)...... whereas Wlad haters will say the opponents are garbage. I'm not a Wlad hater, but I side with the haters on this particular point. However........

2. One thing that CANNOT be argued is that the quality of fights themselves has totally dropped in the Klitschko era. Again Wlad fans will differ, but they are kidding themselves. What brings fans to heavyweight fights? Quality of fights. Give and take. Punching and counter-punching. Epic battles. How many of these battles has Wlad been in? Answer: ZILCH. End of discussion. Is this Wlad's fault? Hell no. If he can take the "W" and go home unscathed, by pawing at an opponent cowering in fear (see: David Haye)..... then why should he risk bodily injury? Fair enough. Is it exciting for boxing fans? Not this boxing fan.

3. Put down the opponents in Holmes' era. I don't care. Like I said, I am a Larry Holmes hater. Can't stand the guy. But he was in some epic battles which brought people to boxing. But will any blind Klitschko fan concede this point? Of course not!! They'll point to some far-fetched reason as to why this is untrue. But you know what? I'm gonna make a poll out of it. Yeah... that's what I'll do.

4. Is talking down the quality of Wlad's opponents or his fights, denying Wlad's greatness or place in boxing history? Of course the hell not!! Again, I'm capable of separating one thing from the other. Are you? Wlad fans? Probably not. Yes, Wlad is great. Yes, Wlad will be in the HOF. Etc, etc, etc. Has this era been good for boxing or has it brought new U.S. fans to the HW division? NO.

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1. Wlad can only fight who is in his era and a 58 (51 KO)-3 record is nothing to sneeze at. Wlad wins, he wins by KO...what more do you want? He doesn't fight like Tyson because he's not Mike Tyson and people need to let that shit go and appreciate what we have now, they didn't appreciate Lennox Lewis either and now they're looking past the Klitschko's waiting for another Tyson.

2. "What brings fans to heavyweight fights?" 30,000 fans in Switzerland saw Wlad live and in person whup Tony Thompson again and 50,000+ watched him vs Eddie Chambers and Ruslan Chagaev....are you fucking serious "What brings fans to heavyweight fights?"...when was the last time 50,000 Americans went to a heavyweight boxing match? I don't know I have no idea, but just because heavyweight boxing IN AMERICA is hurting doesn't mean that worldwide it's hurting, because it obviously isn't. It's not like people are forced to buy tickets to see Wlad and Vitali fight.

3. Epic battles are fine but you don't have to have epic battles to be a great fighter. Mickey Ward had epic battles, he's not a great fighter. Willie Pep hardly ever had a "battle" and he's a great fighter. Question, how many "Epic battles" was Tyson in? Liston? Lennox Lewis?

4. Wlad made me follow boxing closer, in fact I probably never would have started boxing at all had I not seen Wlad fight. I like many others had gone my entire life and rarely if ever seen an "educated boxer" and even rarer still, seen one that fought like Wlad did. alas, I'm one of the very few, but hey I'm one.

Deontay Wilder needs mentioning. He's going to be at least good IMO. Also I know he isn't pro yet but I can't help but get excited everytime I see Anthony Joshua clips. I don't see anyone stopping him getting the gold this year and then I see him taking well to the pros too.

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Originally Posted by THE PHILOSOPHER

Can u honestly envision prime peter vs i.e oscar bonavena or randall cobb lol

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Yes I can! ;D

This is a great thread. I'm not very familiar with the present heavyweight division, this has given me a good start. Cheers.