Wlad can only beat what is put in front of him and he has. The reality that these are very poor heavyweights and he should be expected to beat them.
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Wlad can only beat what is put in front of him and he has. The reality that these are very poor heavyweights and he should be expected to beat them.
#1 He does beat them and #2 Wlad can't MAKE those guys be better boxers than they are just like he can't make them show up in shape or show up to win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Wlad has beaten some very good if inconsistent fighters in his career
I never said Wlad can make them better boxers just as Tyson could not go to his opponents dressing room and say "do not worry I will not hurt you I am really soft at heart".Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong#1 He does beat them and #2 Wlad can't MAKE those guys be better boxers than they are just like he can't make them show up in shape or show up to win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Wlad has beaten some very good if inconsistent fighters in his career
Wlad beats them in dominant fashion not the same way as Tyson but the same dominance.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterI never said Wlad can make them better boxers just as Tyson could not go to his opponents dressing room and say "do not worry I will not hurt you I am really soft at heart".Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong#1 He does beat them and #2 Wlad can't MAKE those guys be better boxers than they are just like he can't make them show up in shape or show up to win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Wlad has beaten some very good if inconsistent fighters in his career
Since when was Toney/Rahman 2 made a NC because of steroids? It was made a NC because Rahman ran off crying about being blind. That was nothing to do with steroids.
Wlad never faced a prime Toney and I will always hold that against him.
To me his record should put in in top 3 p4p
:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf
Toney was never "prime" at heavyweight, hell he was barely "prime" at cruiserweight. Wlad would have EASILY handled Toney the jab alone makes Toney's roll & counter style ineffective. Plus I've yet to see a guy use both arms to block Wlad's power punches much less use one arm to block and be effective.
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Originally Posted by El Kabong:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf
Toney was never "prime" at heavyweight, hell he was barely "prime" at cruiserweight. Wlad would have EASILY handled Toney the jab alone makes Toney's roll & counter style ineffective. Plus I've yet to see a guy use both arms to block Wlad's power punches much less use one arm to block and be effective.
Truer words were never spoken. Toney at HW was a blown-up whale of a man. He would've gotten shelled by Wlad mercilessly (unless Wlad went into a totally unnecessary defensive pose). Toney would have use the shoulder so much, he'd end up with his back toward Wlad most of the time.
Well not only that but if you're using the shoulder roll vs a fighter with such a long reach and a fighter who can move quickly as well it's not so much that Toney will have his back towards Wlad the entire time it's Toney will roll and Wlad will have a perfect window to land flush left hooks all day long.....I think that fight not getting made is the sole reason James Toney never lost via KO/TKO because that fight would have been a one sided beatdown to end all beatdownsQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
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Originally Posted by El KabongWell not only that but if you're using the shoulder roll vs a fighter with such a long reach and a fighter who can move quickly as well it's not so much that Toney will have his back towards Wlad the entire time it's Toney will roll and Wlad will have a perfect window to land flush left hooks all day long.....I think that fight not getting made is the sole reason James Toney never lost via KO/TKO because that fight would have been a one sided beatdown to end all beatdownsQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
Toney having his back turned was a deliberate exaggeration, Lyle. Of course he's not gonna have his back turned to Wlad. I myself am not a huge fan of the shoulder roll, especially if it's overdone in a fight. And that's the only defense Toney would have against Wlad. Wlad is not the most agile heavyweight in history... but he's pretty athletic and might figure out somewhere along the line that the left hook would be a pretty good weapon. BUT.... by throwing that left hook, he'd leave himself open to a well-timed counter by Toney, which could lead to trouble, given Wlad's susceptibility to a clean hard shot.
More likely than not, the fight would become boring, with Toney overdoing the shoulder roll to the point of nausea.... and Wlad jabbing and poking his way in, while at the same time being overly cautious not to get caught by a counter.
You seem to forget how well Wlad hooks off the jab and how he can throw hooks in repetition quickly as well. James Toney never had the power to be a dangerous heavyweight....cruiserweight maybe as Jirov found out, but heavyweight?!?! At heavyweight James Toney has stopped a total of 3 fighters out of 13 fights. 2 of those stoppages were due to injuries and not the "awesome punching power" of James 'Two Ton' Toney.
To beat Wladimir as I've stated many MANY times before, you either have to weather the storm and keep pouring on pressure OR land clean and follow up without allowing Wladimir to clinch or escape your pressure. James Toney couldn't do either of those IMO.
Toney of 6 years ago was an awesome beast of a fighter. He seldom lost rounds at HW and did so because he had better upper body movement, could slip inside, and would throw in delightful, crisp combinations. He was beautiful to watch. Wlad lost to FAR worse fighters than James Toney and we are to sit here and say Wlad would just pick him off or punch through him. It is nonsense, nobody punches through James Toney.
Compare Toney/Peter 1 and Wlad/Peter 1. Toney did the far more convincing showing really and let's not pretend that Peter won that fight. Toney takes the punches finds a way and THAT is the fat Toney.
miles you loon, the fighters Wladimir lost to had very different styles and strengths that James Toney simply did not have. James Toney could take a punch, but could he apply pressure? NO. James Toney had good defense but did he ever test it out vs a guy with a similar style to Wlad? NO. And James Toney lost to some pretty bad heavyweights himself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf
The Wlad that fought Sam Peter isn't the Wlad of today and the Sam Peter that fought Wlad would have beaten James Toney like a rented mule!
James Toney of a few years back was a very credible opponent and it NEVER happened. That is a gaping hole and I am convinced it was because Steward wanted no part of James Toney. He knows the skills Toney had and how difficult he was to hit clean and how he would make you look foolish. Toney in those years was awesome, many people on here were high on his skills. Me too. It's just I haven't forgotten and revised everything on the basis of a broken toe, a fat belly or any of that. Toney isn't the hardest puncher, but Wlad has an awful chin and he fights like it. Toney wobbled Rahman bad, he would do that to Wlad too. Just look for that moment and bang. What's Wlad going to do? Hug. Toney steps back, throws the uppercut, a quick left and a right and Wlad is head first through the ropes.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabongmiles you loon, the fighters Wladimir lost to had very different styles and strengths that James Toney simply did not have. James Toney could take a punch, but could he apply pressure? NO. James Toney had good defense but did he ever test it out vs a guy with a similar style to Wlad? NO. And James Toney lost to some pretty bad heavyweights himself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf
The Wlad that fought Sam Peter isn't the Wlad of today and the Sam Peter that fought Wlad would have beaten James Toney like a rented mule!
If Toney wants to come forward he can, he has done that plenty at HW. He was seldom laying on the ropes in the first Peter fight, but a better example is Holyfield and Toney did all that wherever he wanted and was largely taking it to Holyfield. People always downplay a still active, less than his best fighter, but Toney was better than ANYONE Wlad has faced.
James Toney's career highlight was his TKO of Michael Nunn. Throw in maybe the victories over Mike McCallum and Iran Barkley in the early 90's... and that about wraps it up. 21st century Toney is a fat, ballooned-up whale, who has absolutely no business fighting in the HW ranks. Thankfully for him, the division is mediocre and has been for quite some time. Had he ever faced a Tyson or a Lewis in his prime..... that would've been the end to Fat Toney's experiment. It would've given him a sudden urge to get back in some semblance of physical shape and get back to a division where he belongs.