Carlos Monzon vs. Bernard Hopkins @ MW.

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Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN

Monzon would've been taller than Hopkins, Monzon also had a granite like chin and Hopkins would not knock him out. Monzon had a huge right hand, thus the nickname 'shotgun' ! Monzon wins everytime, because he would just find a way.

All of those attributes especially the one in bold also apply to Hopkins. At 38 he pimp slaps the savior of the division in Pavlik albeit at a catch and then jumps two divisions up and slaughters Tarver.

“Monzón is the complete fighter. He can box, he can hit, he can think, and he is game all the way."~Angelo Dundee

Dundee has said the same things about Hopkins and Monzon stood straighter up then Amir Khan.

Monzon is without doubt one of the 3 best Middleweights of all time, he drank, he smoked cigars, he fucked anything that moved, got shot by one of his wives, beat up on paparazzi and only began training one month before any scheduled world title fight.

I don't agree and challenge anyone to show it. Tell me one prime middleweight of note he beat? Just one? He sat in Argentina and was spoon fed his legacy. Give me one fighter who even had a pulse in his first 50 fights prior to Briscoe in 1967? After that fight give me a contender in the next 30 fights prior to his first fight with Nino and then after that prior to the second Nino fight and the first with Grandpa Griffith. I don't think I have ever seen a more padded record then his. Maybe Lamar Clark.
Monzon is Urban Legend. I'm not sure he makes my top 20 list. He does place high on my fraud list though.

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That is the math and this is the sentence allowing me to address it inside the quote. Its not personal in any way ftr. I read all your posts and agree more often then not.

Peace.

I aways thought Monzon was an overrated "dandy", prime X would have torn Monzon up to the body, and stopped him in one of the later rounds. BTW, I watched a bunch of Monzon's fights live on TV, his style was a pleasure to watch, I don't believe he could have handled Bernard's toughness and rough tactics.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Quote:

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Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN

Monzon would've been taller than Hopkins, Monzon also had a granite like chin and Hopkins would not knock him out. Monzon had a huge right hand, thus the nickname 'shotgun' ! Monzon wins everytime, because he would just find a way.

All of those attributes especially the one in bold also apply to Hopkins. At 38 he pimp slaps the savior of the division in Pavlik albeit at a catch and then jumps two divisions up and slaughters Tarver.

“Monzón is the complete fighter. He can box, he can hit, he can think, and he is game all the way."~Angelo Dundee

Dundee has said the same things about Hopkins and Monzon stood straighter up then Amir Khan.

Monzon is without doubt one of the 3 best Middleweights of all time, he drank, he smoked cigars, he fucked anything that moved, got shot by one of his wives, beat up on paparazzi and only began training one month before any scheduled world title fight.

I don't agree and challenge anyone to show it. Tell me one prime middleweight of note he beat? Just one? He sat in Argentina and was spoon fed his legacy. Give me one fighter who even had a pulse in his first 50 fights prior to Briscoe in 1967? After that fight give me a contender in the next 30 fights prior to his first fight with Nino and then after that prior to the second Nino fight and the first with Grandpa Griffith. I don't think I have ever seen a more padded record then his. Maybe Lamar Clark.
Monzon is Urban Legend. I'm not sure he makes my top 20 list. He does place high on my fraud list though.

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That is the math and this is the sentence allowing me to address it inside the quote. Its not personal in any way ftr. I read all your posts and agree more often then not.

Peace.

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I respect the opinion, but i can't help thinking that in the case of Monzon's reputation in North America the greatest ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about. Monzon only fought once in the US. People just don't know enough about him, he was champ for 7 years and won his last 20 fights 15 by KO as the Middleweight champion of the world. If that doesn't make him top 20 i'm not sure what does? I am not denying Monzon was a lazy champ with regards to his lifestyle, but it didn't affect his winning all the time?
These comparisons are always debatable and there are many you could argue about..
Would Mosley have beaten Duran at Lightweight?
Would PBF have beaten Chavez or Pryor?
Would Hopkins beat Hagler?

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Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Quote:

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Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN

Monzon would've been taller than Hopkins, Monzon also had a granite like chin and Hopkins would not knock him out. Monzon had a huge right hand, thus the nickname 'shotgun' ! Monzon wins everytime, because he would just find a way.

All of those attributes especially the one in bold also apply to Hopkins. At 38 he pimp slaps the savior of the division in Pavlik albeit at a catch and then jumps two divisions up and slaughters Tarver.

“Monzón is the complete fighter. He can box, he can hit, he can think, and he is game all the way."~Angelo Dundee

Dundee has said the same things about Hopkins and Monzon stood straighter up then Amir Khan.

Monzon is without doubt one of the 3 best Middleweights of all time, he drank, he smoked cigars, he fucked anything that moved, got shot by one of his wives, beat up on paparazzi and only began training one month before any scheduled world title fight.

I don't agree and challenge anyone to show it. Tell me one prime middleweight of note he beat? Just one? He sat in Argentina and was spoon fed his legacy. Give me one fighter who even had a pulse in his first 50 fights prior to Briscoe in 1967? After that fight give me a contender in the next 30 fights prior to his first fight with Nino and then after that prior to the second Nino fight and the first with Grandpa Griffith. I don't think I have ever seen a more padded record then his. Maybe Lamar Clark.
Monzon is Urban Legend. I'm not sure he makes my top 20 list. He does place high on my fraud list though.

---

That is the math and this is the sentence allowing me to address it inside the quote. Its not personal in any way ftr. I read all your posts and agree more often then not.

Peace.

---

I respect the opinion, but i can't help thinking that in the case of Monzon's reputation in North America the greatest ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.

I witnessed his career.

Monzon only fought once in the US. People just don't know enough about him, he was champ for 7 years and won his last 20 fights 15 by KO as the Middleweight champion of the world. If that doesn't make him top 20 i'm not sure what does? I am not denying Monzon was a lazy champ with regards to his lifestyle, but it didn't affect his winning all the time?

Look he never fought anyone outside a name (at the end of their careers) and I welcome you or any other to rebut those remarks.

He was and is manicured.


These comparisons are always debatable and there are many you could argue about..
Would Mosley have beaten Duran at Lightweight? Probably not
Would PBF have beaten Chavez or Pryor? He'd embarrass Chavez and beat Pryor probably in a fight similar to Augustus.
Would Hopkins beat Hagler? Maybe.

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You place Monzon in the top 3 and he's off the graph for me. Resumes are deceiving at times but not in this case.

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Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN

Monzon...... got shot by one of his wives

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He got his own back though.

Imagine how good he'd have been if he'd turned up for training and led a remotely normal lifestyle.

It's very hard to say, really. However, I'd say Hopkins by a razor sharp decision after he went to the mat once in the first 4 rounds but would edge the fight at the very end with dirty tactics, lot of grabbing and a head butt.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Quote:

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Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Quote:

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Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN

Monzon would've been taller than Hopkins, Monzon also had a granite like chin and Hopkins would not knock him out. Monzon had a huge right hand, thus the nickname 'shotgun' ! Monzon wins everytime, because he would just find a way.

All of those attributes especially the one in bold also apply to Hopkins. At 38 he pimp slaps the savior of the division in Pavlik albeit at a catch and then jumps two divisions up and slaughters Tarver.

“Monzón is the complete fighter. He can box, he can hit, he can think, and he is game all the way."~Angelo Dundee

Dundee has said the same things about Hopkins and Monzon stood straighter up then Amir Khan.

Monzon is without doubt one of the 3 best Middleweights of all time, he drank, he smoked cigars, he fucked anything that moved, got shot by one of his wives, beat up on paparazzi and only began training one month before any scheduled world title fight.

I don't agree and challenge anyone to show it. Tell me one prime middleweight of note he beat? Just one? He sat in Argentina and was spoon fed his legacy. Give me one fighter who even had a pulse in his first 50 fights prior to Briscoe in 1967? After that fight give me a contender in the next 30 fights prior to his first fight with Nino and then after that prior to the second Nino fight and the first with Grandpa Griffith. I don't think I have ever seen a more padded record then his. Maybe Lamar Clark.
Monzon is Urban Legend. I'm not sure he makes my top 20 list. He does place high on my fraud list though.

---

That is the math and this is the sentence allowing me to address it inside the quote. Its not personal in any way ftr. I read all your posts and agree more often then not.

Peace.

---

I respect the opinion, but i can't help thinking that in the case of Monzon's reputation in North America the greatest ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.

I witnessed his career.

Monzon only fought once in the US. People just don't know enough about him, he was champ for 7 years and won his last 20 fights 15 by KO as the Middleweight champion of the world. If that doesn't make him top 20 i'm not sure what does? I am not denying Monzon was a lazy champ with regards to his lifestyle, but it didn't affect his winning all the time?

Look he never fought anyone outside a name (at the end of their careers) and I welcome you or any other to rebut those remarks.

He was and is manicured.


These comparisons are always debatable and there are many you could argue about..
Would Mosley have beaten Duran at Lightweight? Probably not
Would PBF have beaten Chavez or Pryor? He'd embarrass Chavez and beat Pryor probably in a fight similar to Augustus.
Would Hopkins beat Hagler? Maybe.

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You place Monzon in the top 3 and he's off the graph for me. Resumes are deceiving at times but not in this case.

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That's ok, i'll stick with him in the top 3 and leave Bernard to battle it out with the rest for a place in the top 10. Don't worry he makes my list:

Monzon
Robinson
Hagler
Walker
Hopkins
Greb
Ketchell
Steele
Cerdan
Fitzimmons

B-hop by close points win imo

In my book Fitzsimmons is god. Seriously, god.

OMG, impossible. Hence a no-brainer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Quote:

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Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Quote:

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Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN

Monzon would've been taller than Hopkins, Monzon also had a granite like chin and Hopkins would not knock him out. Monzon had a huge right hand, thus the nickname 'shotgun' ! Monzon wins everytime, because he would just find a way.

All of those attributes especially the one in bold also apply to Hopkins. At 38 he pimp slaps the savior of the division in Pavlik albeit at a catch and then jumps two divisions up and slaughters Tarver.

“Monzón is the complete fighter. He can box, he can hit, he can think, and he is game all the way."~Angelo Dundee

Dundee has said the same things about Hopkins and Monzon stood straighter up then Amir Khan.

Monzon is without doubt one of the 3 best Middleweights of all time, he drank, he smoked cigars, he fucked anything that moved, got shot by one of his wives, beat up on paparazzi and only began training one month before any scheduled world title fight.

I don't agree and challenge anyone to show it. Tell me one prime middleweight of note he beat? Just one? He sat in Argentina and was spoon fed his legacy. Give me one fighter who even had a pulse in his first 50 fights prior to Briscoe in 1967? After that fight give me a contender in the next 30 fights prior to his first fight with Nino and then after that prior to the second Nino fight and the first with Grandpa Griffith. I don't think I have ever seen a more padded record then his. Maybe Lamar Clark.
Monzon is Urban Legend. I'm not sure he makes my top 20 list. He does place high on my fraud list though.

---

That is the math and this is the sentence allowing me to address it inside the quote. Its not personal in any way ftr. I read all your posts and agree more often then not.

Peace.

---

I respect the opinion, but i can't help thinking that in the case of Monzon's reputation in North America the greatest ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.

I witnessed his career.

Monzon only fought once in the US. People just don't know enough about him, he was champ for 7 years and won his last 20 fights 15 by KO as the Middleweight champion of the world. If that doesn't make him top 20 i'm not sure what does? I am not denying Monzon was a lazy champ with regards to his lifestyle, but it didn't affect his winning all the time?

Look he never fought anyone outside a name (at the end of their careers) and I welcome you or any other to rebut those remarks.

He was and is manicured.


These comparisons are always debatable and there are many you could argue about..
Would Mosley have beaten Duran at Lightweight? Probably not
Would PBF have beaten Chavez or Pryor? He'd embarrass Chavez and beat Pryor probably in a fight similar to Augustus.
Would Hopkins beat Hagler? Maybe.

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You place Monzon in the top 3 and he's off the graph for me. Resumes are deceiving at times but not in this case.

---

That's ok, i'll stick with him in the top 3 and leave Bernard to battle it out with the rest for a place in the top 10. Don't worry he makes my list:

Monzon
Robinson
Hagler
Walker
Hopkins
Greb
Ketchell
Steele
Cerdan
Fitzimmons

---

Solid list. Greb in top spot for me and Burley would be in the top 5.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Quote:

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Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Quote:

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Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Quote:

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Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN

Monzon would've been taller than Hopkins, Monzon also had a granite like chin and Hopkins would not knock him out. Monzon had a huge right hand, thus the nickname 'shotgun' ! Monzon wins everytime, because he would just find a way.

All of those attributes especially the one in bold also apply to Hopkins. At 38 he pimp slaps the savior of the division in Pavlik albeit at a catch and then jumps two divisions up and slaughters Tarver.

“Monzón is the complete fighter. He can box, he can hit, he can think, and he is game all the way."~Angelo Dundee

Dundee has said the same things about Hopkins and Monzon stood straighter up then Amir Khan.

Monzon is without doubt one of the 3 best Middleweights of all time, he drank, he smoked cigars, he fucked anything that moved, got shot by one of his wives, beat up on paparazzi and only began training one month before any scheduled world title fight.

I don't agree and challenge anyone to show it. Tell me one prime middleweight of note he beat? Just one? He sat in Argentina and was spoon fed his legacy. Give me one fighter who even had a pulse in his first 50 fights prior to Briscoe in 1967? After that fight give me a contender in the next 30 fights prior to his first fight with Nino and then after that prior to the second Nino fight and the first with Grandpa Griffith. I don't think I have ever seen a more padded record then his. Maybe Lamar Clark.
Monzon is Urban Legend. I'm not sure he makes my top 20 list. He does place high on my fraud list though.

---

That is the math and this is the sentence allowing me to address it inside the quote. Its not personal in any way ftr. I read all your posts and agree more often then not.

Peace.

---

I respect the opinion, but i can't help thinking that in the case of Monzon's reputation in North America the greatest ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.

I witnessed his career.

Monzon only fought once in the US. People just don't know enough about him, he was champ for 7 years and won his last 20 fights 15 by KO as the Middleweight champion of the world. If that doesn't make him top 20 i'm not sure what does? I am not denying Monzon was a lazy champ with regards to his lifestyle, but it didn't affect his winning all the time?

Look he never fought anyone outside a name (at the end of their careers) and I welcome you or any other to rebut those remarks.

He was and is manicured.


These comparisons are always debatable and there are many you could argue about..
Would Mosley have beaten Duran at Lightweight? Probably not
Would PBF have beaten Chavez or Pryor? He'd embarrass Chavez and beat Pryor probably in a fight similar to Augustus.
Would Hopkins beat Hagler? Maybe.

---

You place Monzon in the top 3 and he's off the graph for me. Resumes are deceiving at times but not in this case.

---

That's ok, i'll stick with him in the top 3 and leave Bernard to battle it out with the rest for a place in the top 10. Don't worry he makes my list:

Monzon
Robinson
Hagler
Walker
Hopkins
Greb
Ketchell
Steele
Cerdan
Fitzimmons

---

Solid list. Greb in top spot for me and Burley would be in the top 5.

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The order i place them in will change from time to time, but i reckon i am satisfied with my top 10. I keep Hearns and Leonard out as i consider them better Welterweights and RJJ a Light Heavy.. I have respect for Hopkins, but he was not easy to watch, his style was effective, he would've needed to use all of his guile and boxing wits to have beaten Monzon who was a genuine boxing phenomenon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Quote:

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Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Quote:

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Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Quote:

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Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN

Monzon would've been taller than Hopkins, Monzon also had a granite like chin and Hopkins would not knock him out. Monzon had a huge right hand, thus the nickname 'shotgun' ! Monzon wins everytime, because he would just find a way.

All of those attributes especially the one in bold also apply to Hopkins. At 38 he pimp slaps the savior of the division in Pavlik albeit at a catch and then jumps two divisions up and slaughters Tarver.

“Monzón is the complete fighter. He can box, he can hit, he can think, and he is game all the way."~Angelo Dundee

Dundee has said the same things about Hopkins and Monzon stood straighter up then Amir Khan.

Monzon is without doubt one of the 3 best Middleweights of all time, he drank, he smoked cigars, he fucked anything that moved, got shot by one of his wives, beat up on paparazzi and only began training one month before any scheduled world title fight.

I don't agree and challenge anyone to show it. Tell me one prime middleweight of note he beat? Just one? He sat in Argentina and was spoon fed his legacy. Give me one fighter who even had a pulse in his first 50 fights prior to Briscoe in 1967? After that fight give me a contender in the next 30 fights prior to his first fight with Nino and then after that prior to the second Nino fight and the first with Grandpa Griffith. I don't think I have ever seen a more padded record then his. Maybe Lamar Clark.
Monzon is Urban Legend. I'm not sure he makes my top 20 list. He does place high on my fraud list though.

---

That is the math and this is the sentence allowing me to address it inside the quote. Its not personal in any way ftr. I read all your posts and agree more often then not.

Peace.

---

I respect the opinion, but i can't help thinking that in the case of Monzon's reputation in North America the greatest ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.

I witnessed his career.

Monzon only fought once in the US. People just don't know enough about him, he was champ for 7 years and won his last 20 fights 15 by KO as the Middleweight champion of the world. If that doesn't make him top 20 i'm not sure what does? I am not denying Monzon was a lazy champ with regards to his lifestyle, but it didn't affect his winning all the time?

Look he never fought anyone outside a name (at the end of their careers) and I welcome you or any other to rebut those remarks.

He was and is manicured.


These comparisons are always debatable and there are many you could argue about..
Would Mosley have beaten Duran at Lightweight? Probably not
Would PBF have beaten Chavez or Pryor? He'd embarrass Chavez and beat Pryor probably in a fight similar to Augustus.
Would Hopkins beat Hagler? Maybe.

---

You place Monzon in the top 3 and he's off the graph for me. Resumes are deceiving at times but not in this case.

---

That's ok, i'll stick with him in the top 3 and leave Bernard to battle it out with the rest for a place in the top 10. Don't worry he makes my list:

Monzon
Robinson
Hagler
Walker
Hopkins
Greb
Ketchell
Steele
Cerdan
Fitzimmons

---

Solid list. Greb in top spot for me and Burley would be in the top 5.

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The order i place them in will change from time to time, but i reckon i am satisfied with my top 10. I keep Hearns and Leonard out as i consider them better Welterweights and RJJ a Light Heavy.. I have respect for Hopkins, but he was not easy to watch, his style was effective, he would've needed to use all of his guile and boxing wits to have beaten Monzon who was a genuine boxing phenomenon.

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Its a fine list. Mine is much different and has your number 1 clawing the bottom for reasons I have already put forth. Robinson was a better welter then middle. Ugly styles are quite often the most successful. Thats just the way it is. Monzon was not a phenom imo.

Great discussion and read lads, I am with the third man on this one.