Makes me smile when people say Lewis struggled with the likes of Mercer etc.
Well Clay struggled with Norton , so it's clear styles make fights.
Lewis was a top fighter and far easier on the eye then Wlad, is Wlad a top fighter. ? Yes he is.
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Makes me smile when people say Lewis struggled with the likes of Mercer etc.
Well Clay struggled with Norton , so it's clear styles make fights.
Lewis was a top fighter and far easier on the eye then Wlad, is Wlad a top fighter. ? Yes he is.
It makes me smile when people actually think the Mercer who fought Lewis or Holyfield is comparable to the ghost who fought Wlad. And he boxed both of them pretty damn well off the jab. The same jab that found Wlad a bit!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al
Ok I'm somewhat convinced here. Most of your points I have nothing to counter offer. These are the reasons I rank Lenny #1 myself. All I will maintain is that I don't believe the gap between Lewis's opponents and Wlad's is that far and SOME of Wlad's might be better than what Lennox had.Quote:
@Max Power
Basically all you've done is put a negative spin on Lewis record, which can easily be done to Wlad and any other fighter in history. So here goes...
If you are going to claim some of Lewis's opponents were "shot" or past their best then the same applies to Wlad. So take Rahman, Mercer and Botha off Wlad's list. Lewis had already dispatched much fresher versions that had been competing in world-class long before Wlad faced them.
To say Lewis "struggled" with some opponents probably indicates they were good fighters. Or maybe it's the old cliche - styles make fights. Or maybe he had an "off" night. Either way, Wlad "struggled" with Sam Peter, jumping on the floor 3 times, he struggled with Sanders, Purity and Brewster by getting knocked out. Are these men any better than those that Lewis "struggled" with? Sanders had previously been knocked out by a Lewis victim - Rahman. Brewster had been beaten by Clifford Etienne, a man the "shot" Mike Tyson knocked out in 1 round after he had become a Lewis victim. Purity was a journeyman. Wlad's big brother beat the shit out of Peter, who subsequently lost again before Wlad stopped him in the rematch, but then subsequently got knocked out again.
Mariusz Wach, Francesco Pianeta, Calvin Brock, Ray Austin and Tony Thompson? What do these guys have in common? None of them even fought for a "world" title let alone won anything before or after facing Wlad. It's not just a case of these guys being more obscure, they have never proven themselves in world-class.
Wlad's three biggest fights (arguably) - Haye, Povetkin and Ibragimov. What do these have in common? They were all boring stinkers.
So to sum up -
1. Lewis beat every man that he ever fought. Something Wlad can't claim.
2. Lewis's list of opponents is a virtual who's who of former and even current "world" champions and challengers. Many of Wlad's best opponents have clearly never proven themselves at the highest level and subsequently achieved nothing since facing him.
3. Lewis has a whole bunch of spectacular, memorable performances or dominant KO's inside 8 rounds - Ruddock, Grant, Morrison, Botha, Briggs, Golota, Rahman, Tyson, Bruno, Vitali etc. The only "thrilling" fights Wlad has ever been involved in have resulted in him getting knocked out.
Lewis is by far the superior champion on every level. Fact.
But over all... You're right, Lennox did face the better opponents.
Thanks for the debate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Power
One final point, when I was looking over Wlad's opposition I couldn't think of any memorable, notable or modern day classics they had been in, other than his few opponents that were already Lewis victims.
But when you look at Lewis's opponents it almost instantly throws up - Tyson-Holyfield x 2. Holyfield-Bowe x 3. Golota-Bowe x 2. Rahman-Sanders. Mercer-Morrison. Ruddock-Tyson x 2. Morrison-Ruddock. Tua-Ibeabuchi. Tua-Ruiz. Bruno-McCall. Significant fights like Briggs-Foreman and even fights like Botha-Moorer that tie in with Moorer-Foreman/Holyfield etc.
It's not a western bias. Quite simply Lewis beat men that were in great/memorable/notable fights. Unfortunately Wlad and his best opponents haven't done the same. :)
That can't be completely true. Sander's vs Vitali was a good smash up. Brewster vs Liakovich was undeniably good. Ibragimov vs Whitaker was ok. Samuel PEter had some decent fights. Haye is beautiful to watch most of the time.
On the contrary I think it's mainly against Wladimir that they are forced into the kind of fight that is not fan friendly. I think Wlad would do that to just about any of the shorter opponents that Lennox faced too, even Holyfield probably.
When Wlad fights taller guys like Wach and Thompson he seems to bust out the right hand more often than just the jab. He does not like the shorter guys that try to bull inside. He knows that is the only place they can be effective and knows if he neutralises it, the fight is won (and incidentally doesn't put his famous chin at risk as well).
Personally I do agree with you Fenster, that LEnnox and his opponents did have more watchable fights than Wladimir AND his opponents. There has definitely been a decline there I can see that too. I would say though that one of the big reasons for me though is that it is hard to find HBO or otherwise coverage in English now of the major HW fights.
I don't find Wlad's fights that entertaining compared with Vitali, Lennox, Tyson, Bowe, Holyfield, he is not fan friendly, I'll give you that.
I agree ! vitali was the best win for lewis and we know that david haye would beat vitali because errrrr david haye said so and he wore a t-shirt :S Wladimir beat haye and haye scared vitali into semi retirement so Wladimir has the better record.. It must be true !Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Power
Apart from Chisora, all of Hayes heavyweight fights have been shiteQuote:
Originally Posted by Max Power
5 fights in 5 years. Unfortunately, Haye has ultimately proven to be a disappointment at Heavyweight in the ring.
2009 - Nikolay Valuev
2010 - John Ruiz, Audley Harrison.
2011 - Wladimir Klitschko
2012 - Dereck Chisora
2013 - --------
Coming out of the gate at Heavyweight in late 2008, it looked like he'd infuse some real action and public interest in an otherwise uninteresting Heavyweight scene. Alas, that hasn't turned out to be the case.
Haye ain't the only inactive top guy though, mayweather too and several others, you'd think top pro fighters would try to make the most of their athletic primes and cash in as much as they can while they're physically able to. Most guys only get about 5 years where they put it all together...
That is unfortunate Bradlee I do agree.
It is NOT a reflection on the quality of them as boxers.
But it is a reflection that they are there for the title only (Floyd has them, Haye is only interested in fighting when it's for one of them) and they are there for the money (both are wealthy and so don't care to risk or put forth effort for anything less than a belt like Haye, or to prove undeniably they are the greatest like Floyd ducking Pac.
It sucks. They're scum for it and THIS is a MAJOR problem in modern professional boxing! I agree with that.
Haye DID let us all down. Fact!
What's unfortunate is that your posts are a reflection of either your particular level of mental retardation or your trolling abilities. It's one or the other. Sometimes when I read your nonsense, I say to myself, "Self, this guy's obviously just trolling 'cause nobody could really be that dumb!" But then again, I KNOW from personal experience that there really are many, many people on this planet that really are that dumb! I'm leaning more towards you being a troll, though not a particularly good one. You're certainly no Donny!Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Power