guts, courage, smarter boxing mentality & a desire to fight the best fighters out there, and to not make excuses like roy always did.
roy was on top once, but the tables have turned in favor of the real fighter...a legend now, B-Hop!!!
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guts, courage, smarter boxing mentality & a desire to fight the best fighters out there, and to not make excuses like roy always did.
roy was on top once, but the tables have turned in favor of the real fighter...a legend now, B-Hop!!!
That's not a fair assessment of Roy. Roy fought everyone he could fight and in his prime he fought more dangerous opponents than Hopkins did. Hopkins' run at middleweight lasted up until he faced a real middleweight in Jermain Taylor. Until that point Hopkins refused to move up in weight and fight RJJ or Toney.Quote:
Originally Posted by #1FightFan
Roy fought some good fighters, Roy even went to heavyweight and showed off his skills there....should have retired after that but hindsight is 20/20
Hopkins is solvent; Jones is not.
Money, health and happiness. :)
It's more a case of what Jones had that he doesn't have now.
Roy did it to himself, Idk if everyone remembers but Roy was supposed to fight Trinidad when Bernard came along and knocked out Tito. So instead of fighting Bernard he ducked him and took on Tarver twice and the second time he proceeded to get knocked out cold, then getting ktfo by Glenn Johnson, and later getting laid out by a bunch of bums. My point being that if Roy had taken the Hopkins fight instead of the Tarver fight he could have salvaged his legacy cause there would have been no shame in losing to a prime B Hop, but when you lose to the likes of Tarver and Johnson(both men were beaten by hopkins) and the manner in which he lost, it really tarnishes your legacy, and the rest of his losses just sealed it.
RJJ was a great talent but he lacked the heart and courage of Hopkins, and throughout his career his opposition was less than stellar fighting sub par competition. Ever since Roy got ktfo by Tarver he was just trying to survive in his fights, it was as though going the distance and losing was a victory to him as long as he didn't get knocked out.
The comments you made above negate the true part of your post: That is wasn't a fair assessment of Roy. Roy DID NOT fight everyone he could fight, or even a few of those he could have and should have fought (Benn, Eubank, Collins, G-Man, Hop rematch, Liles, Nunn, Darius...etc.). His competition after Toney was not up to his ability, to the point that people began boycotting his fights due to lack of competitive match ups (ROYCOTT was the name given to the movement).Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongThat's not a fair assessment of Roy. Roy fought everyone he could fight and in his prime he fought more dangerous opponents than Hopkins did. Hopkins' run at middleweight lasted up until he faced a real middleweight in Jermain Taylor. Until that point Hopkins refused to move up in weight and fight RJJ or Toney.Quote:
Originally Posted by #1FightFan
Roy fought some good fighters, Roy even went to heavyweight and showed off his skills there....should have retired after that but hindsight is 20/20
As for more dangerous opponents than Hop, Roy took on and beat 1 fighter ranked p4p at the time they fought and that was James Toney. Hop fought these guys ranked p4p at the time he fought them: Tito (#2), Tarver (#8), Winky (#4), Joe C. (#4), Pavilik (#6), Pascal (#11). He also fought tough, respected challengers in Dawson, Cloud (undefeated when they fought), Shumenov, Joe Lipsey (undefeated when he ruined him), Glenn Johnson (undefeated when Hop beat him), Andrew Council, and Howard Eastman to name a few. Oscar was undersized, but Hop stopped him, as he should have. Additionally, Hop COMPLETELY cleaned out 160 beating every other champion at his weight and cleaning out the division before getting ripped off against Taylor (NOT the first true middleweight he fought, this was another comment that makes you look biased/uneducated).
The one thing you are correct on was that Roy was a supreme talent, and not a coward. He rose in weight and took on James Toney when Toney was the most feared champion out there. The truth is that Roy became a business man more than a fighter, which is good for him, and took on the least risk for the most reward. I give Roy credit for fighting Tarver and then giving him a rematch after the tough fight, but I think that once he lost it, he realized that he wasn't going to be remembered like he wanted and wanted to go back to being a fighter but found it was too late. If you look at Roy's competition throughout his career, he actually fought better guys when he was past his prime.
Last point, Hop chased Roy for the rematch for years and was willing to move to 168 but wasn't willing for the 60-40 split Roy demanded. Both were great fighters, but Hop will be higher on the ATG list than Roy for the amazing feats and career he has had. Roy was good enough to beat anyone in the history of the sport, but in his prime he never yearned for greatness or tested himself like Hop, Manny, Floyd, Oscar, Tito...etc. did.
Dunno man, I give Hopkins the nod big time as far as fighting more dangerous guys collectively and if we're talking prime I don't even know if that's ended yet for Hopkins??? It wasn't Hopkins need to chase Jones and by the time Hopkins fought Taylor Jones was already getting all he could handle from Tarver. Hopkins run at Middle is lined with knocking about five #1 ranked challengers, a unification tournament win and indeed a fight with Jones. Not too shabby.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongThat's not a fair assessment of Roy. Roy fought everyone he could fight and in his prime he fought more dangerous opponents than Hopkins did. Hopkins' run at middleweight lasted up until he faced a real middleweight in Jermain Taylor. Until that point Hopkins refused to move up in weight and fight RJJ or Toney.Quote:
Originally Posted by #1FightFan
Roy fought some good fighters, Roy even went to heavyweight and showed off his skills there....should have retired after that but hindsight is 20/20
Exactly right. Good post. I made some similar points above but you nailed it with the amount of #1 ranked challengers he beat. Not to mention anyone else who held a belt at his weight (Oscar/WBO, Holmes, Joppy...etc.). I have Hop above Hagler and Monzon historically, which I know is blasphemy, but I just think he had the better career with bigger/more impressive wins.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpicoliDunno man, I give Hopkins the nod big time as far as fighting more dangerous guys collectively and if we're talking prime I don't even know if that's ended yet for Hopkins??? It wasn't Hopkins need to chase Jones and by the time Hopkins fought Taylor Jones was already getting all he could handle from Tarver. Hopkins run at Middle is lined with knocking about five #1 ranked challengers, a unification tournament win and indeed a fight with Jones. Not too shabby.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongThat's not a fair assessment of Roy. Roy fought everyone he could fight and in his prime he fought more dangerous opponents than Hopkins did. Hopkins' run at middleweight lasted up until he faced a real middleweight in Jermain Taylor. Until that point Hopkins refused to move up in weight and fight RJJ or Toney.Quote:
Originally Posted by #1FightFan
Roy fought some good fighters, Roy even went to heavyweight and showed off his skills there....should have retired after that but hindsight is 20/20
I think only the most hardcore Roy fanboys would rank him higher than Hopkins in terms of all time greatness. It's not even a debate that Hopkins is the better fighter in terms of overall resume and longevity. I was laughing real hard when a few days back I was reading an old thread here that said Roy would school Michael Spinks badly, the fanboys were saying that Spinks was a bum and would get steamrolled by Roy like what happened in the Tyson fight. Except the fanboys didn't know that SPinks is actually rated as one of the all time greats at LHW, who had chin, boxing ability, height, reach, and power. Whatever happened at HW was just the icing on the cake to a remarkable career. Yes, he got ko by Tyson in 91 seconds, but remember Spinks was no natural HW, but at LHW he holds his own against anyone in history.
I like Roy, I think he's an outstanding talent, but he had too many ex cops like Richard Frazier on his resume when you look at it in hindsight. And don't even use the excuse that Roy couldn't make the super fights happened, Oscar who's an even bigger star in boxing than Roy fought every Tom, Dick, and Harry out there. Yes, Oscar lost a few big fights, but he still made them happened, took the challenges, and gave the fans what they wanted.
If Roy and Hop were to fight in their primes Roy would beat him again...
Really?!? Because u say so? It would be a close fight, and Roy may win it, but prime vs prime it isn't a guarantee. Hop learned a lot from losing to Roy the first time and adapted his style and learned tricks to deal with faster, unorthodox, more athletically gifted fighters. It would've been ugly and a foul fear from Hop, but I give him a good chance to beat Roy prime vs prime.Quote:
Originally Posted by ykdadamaja
I just don't know how its close as far as overall comp and fundamentals between a Roy and Hopkins. I can't even say it with a straight face given the fact that one is fighting a Courtney Fry in what amounts to a traveling carnival side show and one is fighting top undefeated young champions and breaking his own records. I wasn't keen on the Oscar match and never bought Oscar a Middleweight after he was boxed silly by Sturm. That always struck me as a business arrangement and money event. Equally hated the Simon Brown fight. Can agree on Monzon, possibly Hagler but Marvin excelled in a top era surrounded by some greats. I think Hopkins has done far more than enough to eclipse a Roy shadow now.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeeodExactly right. Good post. I made some similar points above but you nailed it with the amount of #1 ranked challengers he beat. Not to mention anyone else who held a belt at his weight (Oscar/WBO, Holmes, Joppy...etc.). I have Hop above Hagler and Monzon historically, which I know is blasphemy, but I just think he had the better career with bigger/more impressive wins.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpicoliDunno man, I give Hopkins the nod big time as far as fighting more dangerous guys collectively and if we're talking prime I don't even know if that's ended yet for Hopkins??? It wasn't Hopkins need to chase Jones and by the time Hopkins fought Taylor Jones was already getting all he could handle from Tarver. Hopkins run at Middle is lined with knocking about five #1 ranked challengers, a unification tournament win and indeed a fight with Jones. Not too shabby.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongThat's not a fair assessment of Roy. Roy fought everyone he could fight and in his prime he fought more dangerous opponents than Hopkins did. Hopkins' run at middleweight lasted up until he faced a real middleweight in Jermain Taylor. Until that point Hopkins refused to move up in weight and fight RJJ or Toney.Quote:
Originally Posted by #1FightFan
Roy fought some good fighters, Roy even went to heavyweight and showed off his skills there....should have retired after that but hindsight is 20/20
to be fair to Roy the thread should read what does Hopkins have that no other fighter that ever lived has had
roy was unbelievable at his best, but if you look at his recent record it isn't actually that bad for a man of his age
obviously not as good as hopkins
Hold on a bit lets not get carried away here! Hopkins is great and is adding to his legacy with each fight but Roy was a better fighter at his peak than B Hop.