Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the ATG heavyweights?
i remember years ago thinking that wlad was highly overrated. he was so one dimensional yet, steward helped him become effective in that one dimension. his biggest downfall for me though is not just that he got KO'd by lesser opponents (because i could get past that), but its that in my mind, he became dominant when the rest of the decent HWs retired. i regard the HW division of the last 10 years very low. honestly, i dont put anybody on wlads list of victims above a C level fighter (and thats being generous to some). the best fighters that he has faced are byrd and haye. i think that he had a perfect style to beat byrd so that was more of a style makes fights. haye was a decent win but i feel like haye was scared and could have made it more competitive if he would have tried.
either way, his lack of good opposition is to his detriment because he has shown me that he has gotten better over the years, but hasnt shown me that he has truly fixed his weaknesses and vulnerabilities. because of his accomplishments though, i have to put him in the top 15.
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the ATG heavyweights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
i remember years ago thinking that wlad was highly overrated. he was so one dimensional yet, steward helped him become effective in that one dimension. his biggest downfall for me though is not just that he got KO'd by lesser opponents (because i could get past that), but its that in my mind, he became dominant when the rest of the decent HWs retired. i regard the HW division of the last 10 years very low. honestly, i dont put anybody on wlads list of victims above a C level fighter (and thats being generous to some). the best fighters that he has faced are byrd and haye. i think that he had a perfect style to beat byrd so that was more of a style makes fights. haye was a decent win but i feel like haye was scared and could have made it more competitive if he would have tried.
either way, his lack of good opposition is to his detriment because he has shown me that he has gotten better over the years, but hasnt shown me that he has truly fixed his weaknesses and vulnerabilities. because of his accomplishments though, i have to put him in the top 15.
In saying all that about Wlad, what would you say about Joe Louis' competition? Or Rocky Marciano's?
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the ATG heavyweights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SlimTrae
Since styles make fights, earnie Shavers who lost his biggest fights would've stopped Wladimir IMO.
I'm not sure about Holmes, or even Tyson. If a prime Tyson couldn't stop Ruddock (legit) like fight two which went 12 rounds...Both K2's could've...maybe defeated Tyson.
Shavers would be lucky to have lasted past 3 with Wlad. He was a bum.
You mean the bum that all the 1970's HW greats talked about?! LMAO!
Let's stroll for a quick minute down memory land--and then (diss') the fighters who made these statements, cool?
Shavers:
68 out of 74 fights ended by KO; 76% KO ratio
1. Ali said "Earnie hit me so hard, he shook my kinfolk back in Africa!" Apparently Ali wasn't quick enough to evade the shots of a (bum).
2. Larry Holmes said "Shavers was the hardest hitting fighter I met in the ring. Being hit by Mike Tyson was like getting hit by a speeding Ferrari. Being hit by Earnie Shavers was like being hit by a Mac Truck!" Apparently Holmes' jab wasn't superior enough to keep this (bum) at bay.
3. By your standard was the Ken Norton who took Ali 39 rounds a bum when he got KO'd 1st round by Shavers?
4. Seven fighters retired after being knocked out by Shavers: Ron Asher, Frank Smith, Bunky Akins, Bill McMurray, Harold Carter, Eddie Parotte, and Larry Sims. How many has Wlad retired?
5. Shavers recorded 23 first-round knockouts and 50 knockouts within the first three rounds.
So the bum label seems different from my claim of (styles) makes fights.
If Peters' style of fight could hurt & drop Wlad, Was that a bum that did that? Would you say Peter isn't a bum, but Shavers is?
Ross Purity--what was he? Serious when Wlad's corner stopped the fight? Was Purity a bum?
Corrie Sanders? Surely he was a bum too?
But look at his (style) of fight. Same as Lamon Brewster.
Interesting debate I'd like to partake with you-respecting a lot of your posts, btw. So not so much do you agree with me, but do you see a trend?
Wlad didn't lose to fighters with different styles, let alone was troubled by flee-footed fighters like Chris Byrd. If anything Byrd who is NOT a bum...was beaten by Wlad like a BUM.
Then IMO Shavers style of a heavy handed, flat footed-come-get-some-style could knocked him out...LIKE THE OTHER BUMS WHO STOPPED WLAD..or were they not bums?
Not to say knockdowns from both fighters could have occurred as Shavers was suspect in the chin department I admit.
But I am relieved if not curious you chose that mythical prediction over the one about Tyson/Holmes.
Interesting to say the least...:rolleyes:
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the ATG heavyweights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
i remember years ago thinking that wlad was highly overrated. he was so one dimensional yet, steward helped him become effective in that one dimension. his biggest downfall for me though is not just that he got KO'd by lesser opponents (because i could get past that), but its that in my mind, he became dominant when the rest of the decent HWs retired. i regard the HW division of the last 10 years very low. honestly, i dont put anybody on wlads list of victims above a C level fighter (and thats being generous to some). the best fighters that he has faced are byrd and haye. i think that he had a perfect style to beat byrd so that was more of a style makes fights. haye was a decent win but i feel like haye was scared and could have made it more competitive if he would have tried.
either way, his lack of good opposition is to his detriment because he has shown me that he has gotten better over the years, but hasnt shown me that he has truly fixed his weaknesses and vulnerabilities. because of his accomplishments though, i have to put him in the top 15.
In saying all that about Wlad, what would you say about Joe Louis' competition? Or Rocky Marciano's?
Here; we agree. That is why I did that thread on the what era had the greatest HW's. It seems easy to clown HW eras, but rarily do we know how to cite our favorite..then defend our era as much as we attack other eras; particularly the era(s) of K2.
Dominant.;D
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the ATG heavyweights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SlimTrae
You mean the bum that all the 1970's HW greats talked about?! LMAO!
Let's stroll for a quick minute down memory land--and then (diss') the fighters who made these statements, cool?
Shavers:
68 out of 74 fights ended by KO; 76% KO ratio
1. Ali said "Earnie hit me so hard, he shook my kinfolk back in Africa!" Apparently Ali wasn't quick enough to evade the shots of a (bum).
2. Larry Holmes said "Shavers was the hardest hitting fighter I met in the ring. Being hit by Mike Tyson was like getting hit by a speeding Ferrari. Being hit by Earnie Shavers was like being hit by a Mac Truck!" Apparently Holmes' jab wasn't superior enough to keep this (bum) at bay.
3. By your standard was the Ken Norton who took Ali 39 rounds a bum when he got KO'd 1st round by Shavers?
4. Seven fighters retired after being knocked out by Shavers: Ron Asher, Frank Smith, Bunky Akins, Bill McMurray, Harold Carter, Eddie Parotte, and Larry Sims. How many has Wlad retired?
5. Shavers recorded 23 first-round knockouts and 50 knockouts within the first three rounds.
So the bum label seems different from my claim of (styles) makes fights.
If Peters' style of fight could hurt & drop Wlad, Was that a bum that did that? Would you say Peter isn't a bum, but Shavers is?
Ross Purity--what was he? Serious when Wlad's corner stopped the fight? Was Purity a bum?
Corrie Sanders? Surely he was a bum too?
But look at his (style) of fight. Same as Lamon Brewster.
Interesting debate I'd like to partake with you-respecting a lot of your posts, btw. So not so much do you agree with me, but do you see a trend?
Wlad didn't lose to fighters with different styles, let alone was troubled by flee-footed fighters like Chris Byrd. If anything Byrd who is NOT a bum...was beaten by Wlad like a BUM.
Then IMO Shavers style of a heavy handed, flat footed-come-get-some-style could knocked him out...LIKE THE OTHER BUMS WHO STOPPED WLAD..or were they not bums?
Not to say knockdowns from both fighters could have occurred as Shavers was suspect in the chin department I admit.
But I am relieved if not curious you chose that mythical prediction over the one about Tyson/Holmes.
Interesting to say the least...:rolleyes:
Earnie Shavers was a BUM. A hard hitting bum, but a bum none the less.
He fought an ancient Ali and did OK, he KO'd a Jimmy Ellis in the latter stages of his career, he stopped a 7-3 Jimmy Young, and he KO'd a Ken Norton at the end of his career. Oh and he caught Larry Holmes with a hail mary right hand. Good for him.
He was never champ, most of the guys he fought were shit, when he fought someone decent he'd usually lose. He had HUGE power, NO chin, NO heart, NO stamina, mediocre skills. He was a bum.
Enough with this guy. It's amazing how many people believe in the fairy tales of big bad Earnie Shavers who would have have swung his powerful fists and KO'd any HW champ who lived after 1980. It's nonsense. He SUCKED.
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the ATG heavyweights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
i remember years ago thinking that wlad was highly overrated. he was so one dimensional yet, steward helped him become effective in that one dimension. his biggest downfall for me though is not just that he got KO'd by lesser opponents (because i could get past that), but its that in my mind, he became dominant when the rest of the decent HWs retired. i regard the HW division of the last 10 years very low. honestly, i dont put anybody on wlads list of victims above a C level fighter (and thats being generous to some). the best fighters that he has faced are byrd and haye. i think that he had a perfect style to beat byrd so that was more of a style makes fights. haye was a decent win but i feel like haye was scared and could have made it more competitive if he would have tried.
either way, his lack of good opposition is to his detriment because he has shown me that he has gotten better over the years, but hasnt shown me that he has truly fixed his weaknesses and vulnerabilities. because of his accomplishments though, i have to put him in the top 15.
In saying all that about Wlad, what would you say about Joe Louis' competition? Or Rocky Marciano's?
louis' competition is underrated. everybody brings up the bum of the month but nobody understands they called it that because he was black and it made his accomplishments seem less than what they were. you can imagine if it were a white man doing it, they definitely wouldnt be calling his fights the bum of the month.
with that said, louis fought some solid competition and fought bigger fighters too. max baer and schmelling were both very good fighters. baer was known as extremely dangerous and louis destroyed him. louis did lose to schmelling very early in his career but came back to easily win. billy conn was a great fighter although smaller but still very good. he fought both charles and walcott at the end of his career. charles is widely known as the best LHW ever and walcott was a solid HW who he KO'd in their second fight. there are a few other alright names on his resume. and again, you can say some of these fighters were small compared to todays HWs but he fought max baer, buddy baer, primo carnera, and abe simon who were all around the same size as todays HWs. and he KO'd them all.
marciano doesnt have a great resume. most of his competition was old when he fought them. he is a great fighter but i always have trouble ranking him because of the reason i have for ranking wlad. the competition just isnt there and marciano showed glaring weaknesses about being able to be outboxed. he was just durable and never gave up.
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the ATG heavyweights?
top 20
it would be higher but the competition isn't up to scratch
If he fights the young guns and wins I might put him in the top 15
Fair play to the guy and he impressed last time but he hasn't fought anyone who really had a chance
Job Biscuit (entertaining at least...for a change)!!!!
eh eh!!
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the ATG heavyweights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
louis' competition is underrated. everybody brings up the bum of the month but nobody understands they called it that because he was black and it made his accomplishments seem less than what they were. you can imagine if it were a white man doing it, they definitely wouldnt be calling his fights the bum of the month.
with that said, louis fought some solid competition and fought bigger fighters too. max baer and schmelling were both very good fighters. baer was known as extremely dangerous and louis destroyed him. louis did lose to schmelling very early in his career but came back to easily win. billy conn was a great fighter although smaller but still very good. he fought both charles and walcott at the end of his career. charles is widely known as the best LHW ever and walcott was a solid HW who he KO'd in their second fight. there are a few other alright names on his resume. and again, you can say some of these fighters were small compared to todays HWs but he fought max baer, buddy baer, primo carnera, and abe simon who were all around the same size as todays HWs. and he KO'd them all.
Well in terms of the black angle, they never called Jack Johnson's opponents Bum of the Month, or SRR's, so why was Joe so special?
In the end, the guy had a 25-fight title run and you could only bring up 4 names.
No doubt Louis fought some real good fighters too, but I'd be interested in knowing what made guys like Schmelling, Baer and Conn that much better HWs than guys like Povetkin, Wach, Thompson, Chambers, Peters, ect. Why are guys like Buddy Baer, Primo Carnera and Abe Simon any more dangerous than guys like David Haye or Samuel Peter?
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the ATG heavyweights?
So den, you don't think Foreman could have beat Wlad?
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the ATG heavyweights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
walrus
So den, you don't think
No, isn't it obvious?
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the ATG heavyweights?
woo!! woo!!....slow down...Wlad would have struggled beating his older brother let alone a live under dog.....look what happened when vitali klitschko fought a out of shape unfocused Lennox Lewis and then confirm to everyone how any of the Klits would have got into the top 15 let alone top 20??
Job Biscuit (This is ridiculas)!!!!
eh eh!!!
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the ATG heavyweights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
louis' competition is underrated. everybody brings up the bum of the month but nobody understands they called it that because he was black and it made his accomplishments seem less than what they were. you can imagine if it were a white man doing it, they definitely wouldnt be calling his fights the bum of the month.
with that said, louis fought some solid competition and fought bigger fighters too. max baer and schmelling were both very good fighters. baer was known as extremely dangerous and louis destroyed him. louis did lose to schmelling very early in his career but came back to easily win. billy conn was a great fighter although smaller but still very good. he fought both charles and walcott at the end of his career. charles is widely known as the best LHW ever and walcott was a solid HW who he KO'd in their second fight. there are a few other alright names on his resume. and again, you can say some of these fighters were small compared to todays HWs but he fought max baer, buddy baer, primo carnera, and abe simon who were all around the same size as todays HWs. and he KO'd them all.
Well in terms of the black angle, they never called Jack Johnson's opponents Bum of the Month, or SRR's, so why was Joe so special?
In the end, the guy had a 25-fight title run and you could only bring up 4 names.
No doubt Louis fought some real good fighters too, but I'd be interested in knowing what made guys like Schmelling, Baer and Conn that much better HWs than guys like Povetkin, Wach, Thompson, Chambers, Peters, ect. Why are guys like Buddy Baer, Primo Carnera and Abe Simon any more dangerous than guys like David Haye or Samuel Peter?
louis was targeted because being the HW champion was something special that a black man shouldnt have the opportunity to have. jack johnson did have a bum of the month because he didnt defend his title as much and as long as louis did.
i mainly named fighters like carnera and simon to prove a point that some people have (not saying you) that all HW fighters used to be small (like around 200 lbs). louis beat fighters who were well over 6 feet and weighed well into the 200's. i understand that carnera isnt really that good and was kind of a joke.
but to answer your question, its an eye test. i have seen quite a bit of film of baer and schmelling. enough footage to rate them fairly accurately. ive probably seen more footage of them than ive seen of certain wlad opponents like wach or povetkin. i feel like when i watch many of wlads opponents, they remind me of carnera. big but slow. they probably have a decent punch because of their size but lack many basic fundamentals. haye is one opponent who was better but used his athleticism more than his fundamentals. if he fought a smarter fight, he probably could have won that fight.
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the ATG heavyweights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
denilson200
Here are ten heavyweights who would have beaten Klitschko and I'm only going to remain in the last 30 years of heavyweights
Lennox Lewis
Mike Tyson
Larry Holmes
Tim Witherspoon
Riddick Bowe
Evander Holfield
Razor Ruddock
Ray Mercer
Frank Bruno
Micheal Spinks
As for ATG heavyweights I think Klitschko would struggle to get in my top 30.
I'll give you Tyson, Lewis, and Holyfield just for argument's sake...but Witherspoon, Bowe, Rudduck, Mercer, Bruno, Spinks, and Larry Holmes?!?!?! That is ridiculous and of course in being specific "I'm only going to remain in the last 30 years of heavyweights" means you're going back to 1984....so yeah 1984 Larry Holmes wouldn't last with Wladimir.
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the ATG heavyweights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SlimTrae
Since styles make fights, earnie Shavers who lost his biggest fights would've stopped Wladimir IMO.
I'm not sure about Holmes, or even Tyson. If a prime Tyson couldn't stop Ruddock (legit) like fight two which went 12 rounds...Both K2's could've...maybe defeated Tyson.
Shavers would be lucky to have lasted past 3 with Wlad. He was a bum.
At 6 foot Shavers has 0 chance against Wlad. Wouldnt get close to tagging him and Wlad would just lean on him on the inside. Shavers might win the 1st round, maybe the 2nd but after that hed just be drained and and Wlad would jab him to submission getting stopped before the end of the 7th.
