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I consider Zab a mental midget. Serious, the dude had speed, a lethal uppercut, but faded after six rounds. Didn't seem to be a stamina issue to me, more like a mental block.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuit
IMO Zab had the tools to be a legit champ. Most journeymen I think would love to have had his abilities, but somehow he kept falling apart.
Tua, you got me there. Like Lennox said : takes more than a right hand and a haircut to the get the title.
In England we have Ovil Mckenzie
High end journeyman, Beat Ovil and you're a good fighter
Tua was not the sharpest knife in the drawer either. ZAB had some nice skills but so did David Reid. The mentalsaspects of a given fighter can be just as much evidence for "gate keeper" status as anything else. I personally believe that the cerebral cortex is the most important organ/muscle/skill in the sport. After all in my mind that is what separated Judah from true elite. It makes no difference to me that he captured a belt or two along the way in a 15 belt per division system. He seems to have matured over the past couple of years and settled down. Shame it happened so late.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlimTraeI consider Zab a mental midget. Serious, the dude had speed, a lethal uppercut, but faded after six rounds. Didn't seem to be a stamina issue to me, more like a mental block.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuit
IMO Zab had the tools to be a legit champ. Most journeymen I think would love to have had his abilities, but somehow he kept falling apart.
Tua, you got me there. Like Lennox said : takes more than a right hand and a haircut to the get the title.
Guys like Tua and Miranda are gate keepers that nobody could miss. All one has to do is reflect on the history of the opponents they lost to and who they beat. With Tua, Fres got checked at the gate and Moorer's comeback came to a screeching halt and Rahman was refused entry the first time. Judahs career reflects in a similar manner but people tend to remember the 15 second highlight reel footage of spectacular nature against a no hoper.
Tackie was one hell of test for the key.
Katsidis
Bika
Andrade
You better bring your A game against these guys.
A few gems in this post.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitTua was not the sharpest knife in the drawer either. ZAB had some nice skills but so did David Reid. The mentalsaspects of a given fighter can be just as much evidence for "gate keeper" status as anything else. I personally believe that the cerebral cortex is the most important organ/muscle/skill in the sport. After all in my mind that is what separated Judah from true elite. It makes no difference to me that he captured a belt or two along the way in a 15 belt per division system. He seems to have matured over the past couple of years and settled down. Shame it happened so late.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlimTraeI consider Zab a mental midget. Serious, the dude had speed, a lethal uppercut, but faded after six rounds. Didn't seem to be a stamina issue to me, more like a mental block.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuit
IMO Zab had the tools to be a legit champ. Most journeymen I think would love to have had his abilities, but somehow he kept falling apart.
Tua, you got me there. Like Lennox said : takes more than a right hand and a haircut to the get the title.
Guys like Tua and Miranda are gate keepers that nobody could miss. All one has to do is reflect on the history of the opponents they lost to and who they beat. With Tua, Fres got checked at the gate and Moorer's comeback came to a screeching halt and Rahman was refused entry the first time. Judahs career reflects in a similar manner but people tend to remember the 15 second highlight reel footage of spectacular nature against a no hoper.
Tackie was one hell of test for the key.
Katsidis
Bika
Andrade
You better bring your A game against these guys.
1. I've heard quite a few old-timers say that David Reid got rushed- he had a drooping eye problem so it was more of a thing where his handlers cashed in on him. Saying this from memory talking with some geezer I met at a boxing hall of fame.
2. I concede on your point with Zab and the Cerebral cortex-in the end he gatekept.
3. Tua, I guess was too one dimensional, but damn! Why'd you bring up Tua-Moorer :mad: I had the brew on ice, ordered a pizza and had a few buddies...30 seconds later...:o
Not sure if you seen it, but right as Moorer's head lays on the bottom rope- You can see his trainer--clear as day, shake is head and say DAMN! - with a look of, tell me this shit didnt just happen!!;D
4. Katsidis could have at least got the belt from Casamayor---even he admitted he got himself knocked out. After that his inside game got pegged, thus reduced to the guy everyone else fights to get to the title.
5. Ben Tackie Saki Bika, yeah, they are on quite a few resumes. Edison Miranda, wow, him too.
Peter Manfredo Jr
Really cool guy, probably could make a great comedian!
Doesn't have the best skills but was chosen a few times by Calzaghe, Lacy, Bika and JCC jr, managed a win over Scott Pemberton & Angel Hernandez.
Calzaghe would've won without help, but the stoppage was pure garbage.
David Tua was one of the best boxers never to win a HW world title!
He layed waste to boxers who were HW champions, unfortunately just not when they were in possession of the title. And he has been a HW title challenger too.
He has also faced many top contender boxers.
This is not the profile of a journeyman.
David Tua might have had limited skillset but he was very strong and very powerful, able to put it together with the very best of them. In fact, only Lennox Lewis (who did) or a Klitschko (who would have) beat him up easily. And even Lennox couldn't knock the guy out.
Calling Tua a journeyman is nothing short of a disgusting insult!
Audley Harrison is a journeyman, Jesse Fergusson was a journeyman. Let's not get confused here!
Calling Tua a journeyman is nothing short of a disgusting insult!
Yet you have called heavyweight champions bums. Irony. :)
Your on a roll today :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
But alas, I don't have to respect a guy like say, Ron Lyle's chances against modern HW's to still declare that he is also one of the best guys not to win a HW title also.
But you are right in another way.
Early in the piece I remember a post I made.. It went something like this...
Liston was a bum,
Frazier was a bum,
Norton was a bum,
Spinks was a bum,
sadly these were some of Ali's best wins!
Well by my own definition of "bum" (a boxer who has lost a quarter or more of their fights), clearly these guys are not really bums and I retract that statement. Even though I don't like it. I think their records if they were allowed to box today at HW or other would look much different.
I did make a statement where I thought it was valid. Walcott. He did have a bummy record. Testament to a weak era.
I guess there is a concession where Walcott may have fought top opponents and LOST often which can be viewed against Wilder who has never lost but then again never fought top opposition to really know.
The problem is SOLVED by my rating system automatically by deleting all bums of records and comparing only MEANINGFUL fights. That's why I actually DO degrade Wilder because his record is basically non-existent w/o bums.
Michael Katsidis is a gatekeeper.
Lost all of his step up fights, Casamayor, Diaz, Marquez, Guerrerro and 2 surprise losses -to which a gatekeeper or journeyman is prone to. Then gets to fight undefeated Kevin Mitchell. Bad style of fight for Mitchell's camp IMO. If the ref would've allowed it to go on, Michael would've won and probably even a rematch with Kevin.
Katsidis needs an inside fight to show his stuff, to which Mitchell accommodated. Anyone who fights this guy to get a notch on their belt should know how to fight on the outside or else have a set of whiskers and a heep of stamina.
I had to think about this...something seemed different from your normal bashing of all HW's not named Klitchko or Haye..Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Power
Type up the thread:
http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...opponents.html
And you stated this:
Chambers outboxes Tua every day of the week, Ibragimov has bashed Briggs and Holyfield, Peter pulverises Botha, Chagaev outboxes Golota and so on...
In this very post you state two things 1. Tua is one of the best to never win.
Then you state 2. might have had limited skillset
Maybe he didn't win the title, because he had a limit set of skill...;D But because he is powerful, that is your criteria for making him one of the best...to never win a many of the ABC belts, just priceless.
Priceless.:rolleyes:
Derek Chisora GateKeeper.
Uysk got a lot of what he needed which was a roughhousing fighter with grit, sturdy chin and tricks to piss a guy off.
Not sure where Derek can go at this point. Personally I think a great fight would be between him and either Luis Ortiz or Andy Ruiz Jr.
If Kovalev keeps fighting, he would be a nice notch for any up n comers.
@SMW I think Ring's #9 rated David Lemieux best days are behind him. He can starch anyone not on their A game. But won't ever see a major title fight. Same with Anthony Dirrell rated #4 by Ring. I don't think either guy will win a major title.
Both guys would make a great undercard: Anthony Dirrell vs Lemiuex would be fireworks. Or if Daniel Jacobs wants to stay in contention he can decision either guy.
Anyone looking to fight at SMW would have a great test in either guy.
@Mw, not sure about SERGIY DEREVYANCHENKO. Did he burn out from ams? AIBA fights? Or too many top notch fighters inside 16 fights? I don't think he can beat either Charlo nor Andrade & had his chance via 3G & Canelo. I think he can beat anyone ranked 5 thru 10.
@JrM I think Lara's best days are far behind yet Ring rates him #2. Any hot/cold fighter can get stunk out by Erislandy. A mobile fighter can eek out a win against him. I think he has 2 strikes against him-1st is his age and 2nd is his slow output counter punching style can be compromised. Jermell has no desire to face him and not sure Hurd Lara II would work, yet Erislandy is still a good fighter. Just no longer an elite one IMO.
@Welter I think both Garcia & Thurman are on the cusp of Gatekeeper. Inactivity, covid lockdown hasn't helped either.
Is Sean Porter now a champ turned Gatekeeper? Can't see Spence wanting anohter one and Crawford is probably to keen mentally to get pulled into a rough house rumble Porter style. Not sure how Sean can win another title. Can he move up?
@JrW, I think Postol is officially the guy to get to the the guy with a title. Not past it, just never proved he could beat elite.
Good choices. Kovalev is certainly treading on gatekeeper territory after showing up like Bambi in headlights for the Canelo fight. Ward had already softened him up and found his Achilles heel... and all aspiring opponents have to do is follow that blueprint.
Danny and Thurman are both pretty good choices, for the reasons you mentioned. Thurman's inactivity, for whatever reason, is maddening and puts him right into that category. Danny is a great fighters... but unfortunately hasn't been able to find that next gear and has lost at the elite level whenever given the chance.
Whoever this 6-0 Bektemir Melikuziev is, he sure doesn't think much of Kovalev. He pops on the test and the kid says no matter, let's fight! With the nickname of "The Bully" LOL! He does well, this makes Kov a Gatekeeper for real.
https://www.espn.com/boxing/story/_/...likuziev-doubt
https://boxrec.com/ru/proboxer/851162
https://theathletic.com/news/sergey-...s/Uf3m0tiTkhRE