Manny & Floyds run of opponents...wow

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Originally Posted by SlimTrae

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

Floyd's run began in '98 when he beat up Genaro Hernandez and it's been going on ever since. Manny, as great as he is and as fantastic a career as he has had, has lost in every "timeframe" of his career: early, middle and "prime".

Roach and Pac cherry-picked as much as Floyd. After Manny beat the shit out of DLH, Roach admitted that they fought him because Roach had been watching DLH and saw that Oscar couldn't "pull the trigger" anymore and was essentially washed up. And really, if you truly examine both resumes in an unbiased manner, keeping in mind the context and timing of each win... there really isn't a whole lot of difference. Both guys fought and beat the shit out of a lot of tough, world class opposition.

Manny is a legit beast and ATG, but Floyd was the better fighter. He was more skilled, he was a smarter fighter and he had the ability to figure guys out and switch gears. If Floyd had a tough first 6 rounds, he adjusted and won the last 6. If he had a tough fight with a guy, in the rematch it wouldn't even be competitive. Manny never had that second and third gear, and he never could figure JMM out.

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True.

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It is very true but a post like that will fade away or be overlooked as the majority don't want to believe that.

Let's be honest..its better for bob and his army to not have the fight so they can finish their respective careers and bob can always say in years to come "woulda coulda shoulda".

Another loss for pac from mayweather would have a huuuuge effect on bob arum mentally, physically and financially even though he's minted.

Do you really think a 90 yr old bob arum wants his former pound for pound fighter beating his current pound for pound fighter?

Its about pride and power.

How's Manny's record going to be seen when it's got one big asterix after another running through the middle of it?

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

I prefer Manny's opponent history. He generally destroys opponents that Mayweather has a tough time with and fights opponents that Mayweather wouldn't face. Plus even though Mayweather beat Marquez better, he had to cheat with the weight and not even making weight to do it. Pac has the added depth with the quality of Barrera and Morales, whilst Mayweather has too much filler like Maidana, Ortiz and Guerrrero. Pac would blitz each of those guys, whereas Mayweather went 36 rounds and again cheated, but this time with a sucker punch. Manny really annoyed me by beating up Barrera and Hatton, but time heals the fanboy scars.

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So Floyd used weight against JMM to an advantage but Manny 'the catchweight king' doesn't fight weight drained opponents every other fight? :vd:

Floyd not coming in on weight against JMM was poor, but don't act like he out muscled and out brawled JMM in that fight... The difference in skill was substantial, JMM was out thought, not out fought.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

In the end, boxing aficionados wont be looking at money generated or PPV figures, they'll just be judged by who they fought.

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Most of the time anyway... :rolleyes: ;D

The run from De La Hoya to Clotty for me is where Pac is so so impressive

I know there are various excuses (i.e. de la hoya washed up) but heres what i expected for each fight:

De La Hoya:
Expectation: De La Hoya Win - Much bigger, SD vs Flloyd 1.5 years earlier
Result: Pac TKO 8 - Stopped him earlier than anyone ever had before (Hopkins 9)

Hatton:
Expectation: 50-50 I thought it would be a firecracker
Result: KO 2 - Wow.

Cotto:
Expectation: I thought Pac would win this but again via an absoulute war (not sure what the odds on this fight were)
Result: Total one sided 12th round stoppage (great fight though!) - not even like the Margarito fight where Cotto was ever ahead on the cards etc

Clotty:
Expectation: Clotty would lose a reasonably close UD like he did in his other big fights i.e vs Margarito
Result: One sided domination - Clotty is a top quality operator and no one has ever beaten him that easily

Now of course Mayweather would have been the favourite for all of these fights which doesn't make his victories vs Hatton De La Hoya etc any less good but the manner Pac dispatched these 4 in makes me think if they fought at this time that he would be 50-50 to have beaten Floyd - watch the fights he's simply outstanding.

The opponents were impressive but they have tailed off a bit from the high standards they had set.

ODLH was like a corpse when Pac fought him. 143lb and had to rehydrate with an intravenous drip...

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Originally Posted by AdamGB

ODLH was like a corpse when Pac fought him. 143lb and had to rehydrate with an intravenous drip...

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Oscar was dumb enough to offer to go down to that weight because he did not want to look like a bully.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j35_BYabvW4

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Originally Posted by AdamGB

Floyd not coming in on weight against JMM was poor, but don't act like he out muscled and out brawled JMM in that fight... The difference in skill was substantial, JMM was out thought, not out fought.

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That's a key point that gets left out. Floyd didn't fight a "big man" fight. The advantages you would normally give to a smaller fighter - speed, skill, reflexes, ect - were all to Floyd's advantage. Floyd completely outclassed one of the greatest fighters of this generation.

I love how people act like the JMM Floyd fought at WW was a different guy altogether than the JMM Pac fought at WW. JMM was leaner in the Pac fight for sure, but he weighed in at 142 to fight Floyd and 142/143 to fight Pac.

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Originally Posted by oakleyno1

watch the fights he's simply outstanding.

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Not only is Pac one of the greatest boxers of all time, he's also one of the top action, bang for your buck fighters. I love the little fella truth be told. I just think he gets a pass on a lot of things that people would and do hold Floyd to the fire for because he's a more likeable guy.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by AdamGB

Floyd not coming in on weight against JMM was poor, but don't act like he out muscled and out brawled JMM in that fight... The difference in skill was substantial, JMM was out thought, not out fought.

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That's a key point that gets left out. Floyd didn't fight a "big man" fight. The advantages you would normally give to a smaller fighter - speed, skill, reflexes, ect - were all to Floyd's advantage. Floyd completely outclassed one of the greatest fighters of this generation.

I love how people act like the JMM Floyd fought at WW was a different guy altogether than the JMM Pac fought at WW. JMM was leaner in the Pac fight for sure, but he weighed in at 142 to fight Floyd and 142/143 to fight Pac.

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But you do have to factor in how Mayweather and Marquez would have fought knowing Marquez very likely couldn't hurt Floyd.

Not that its not a good win - in fact it's probably a great win - Marquez is clearly Pacs bogey fighter - Mayweather arguebly doesn't have one except Castillo - although I thought he lost the first fight he did adapt and beat him pretty convincingly the 2nd - unlike Manny and JMM fights

Mannys has been unbelieveable hasnt it, for years

has there ever been a better/tougher/more impressive run of opponents?

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Originally Posted by oakleyno1

But you do have to factor in how Mayweather and Marquez would have fought knowing Marquez very likely couldn't hurt Floyd.

Not that its not a good win - in fact it's probably a great win - Marquez is clearly Pacs bogey fighter - Mayweather arguebly doesn't have one except Castillo - although I thought he lost the first fight he did adapt and beat him pretty convincingly the 2nd - unlike Manny and JMM fights

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Yeah JMM isn't a true WW in the modern sense (neither is Floyd to be fair), but JMM dropped and KTFO Manny at WW so he did have potential to hurt Floyd with a good counter, had he been able to land, but yeah JMM doesn't have WW power.

Floyd should probably get more credit for beating Marquez but he not only had weight over him but height and reach as well. He looked a lot bigger. I doubt there's a fighter in history that could beat Floyd giving him all the physical advantages. Pac-Marquez have looked the same size regardless of the weight.

Also Pac's win over Oscar shouldn't be rubbished either. He was a massive underdog and beat Oscar in an almost shocking fashion. His brilliant performance was just as big a factor as Oscar being "weight drained."

Two top wins for both.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Also Pac's win over Oscar shouldn't be rubbished either. He was a massive underdog and beat Oscar in an almost shocking fashion. His brilliant performance was just as big a factor as Oscar being "weight drained."

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It was a great win. I thought he was going to get killed. The president of the Philippines wanted to stop the fight from happening. There's no getting around it, it was a huge win that launched Pac into true super stardom.