Re: Roberto Duran vs Julio Cesar Chavez @ Lightweight
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Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
With all due respect to Chavez, I doubt he beats anyone in the top 20 all time let alone Duran. He was very good at 135 but spent about a minute there. I think he gets carved up.
I love the school of thought that, when questioning who would win a hypothetical match up, one must consult the big book of rankings and see who is ranked highest of all time by the consensus of boxing fans. Styles, physical attributes be damned. Fighter A is the #3 of all time, Fighter B is the #7 of all time, so what chance could Fighter B possibly have? It's one of the dumbest things I see on these forums. It boggles my mind.
Why do people talk about weight classes like it's a separate job? Like lightweight is fire-fighting and light-welterweight is criminal law. Well, fighter A was a fire fighter for 10 years, fighter B was a fire fighter for 2 years and then moved on to criminal law, so obviously Fighter A is a better fire fighter. LOL, do people realize that weight classes are arbitrary weight limits set to protect smaller guys from bigger guys? And that, regardless of weight, you're doing the same job? A guy who was great at 130, 140, and 147 (Mayweather for example) would have been great at 135. Who gives a shit who fought longer at the arbitrary weight limit? What matters is the fighters and the clash of styles and skill.
I never consulted squat. I never needed to. He's just not that good a lightweight and is also one of the most overrated fighters of all time. And there is taped evidence that you can even watch. If you think he beats Duran that's your problem and not mine for thinking its laughable.
I normally agree with you but Chavez was not over rated.
Re: Roberto Duran vs Julio Cesar Chavez @ Lightweight
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
With all due respect to Chavez, I doubt he beats anyone in the top 20 all time let alone Duran. He was very good at 135 but spent about a minute there. I think he gets carved up.
It's true. Chavez didn't spend much time at lightweight. But in his few fights there he managed to beat a faded Bazooka Limon. A highly touted prospect (at that time) Rodolfo Aguilar. Unifies the WBC and WBA against Jose Luis Ramirez. And proved his toughness when he dismantled and took the heart of Edwin Rosario.
Re: Roberto Duran vs Julio Cesar Chavez @ Lightweight
Jose Luis Ramirez. THAT'S another fighter I'm high on at the minute. Had a very close fights with Arguello and Whittaker (first time round) and his rematch with Rosario is just mind boggling.
Re: Roberto Duran vs Julio Cesar Chavez @ Lightweight
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
I normally agree with you but Chavez was not over rated.
Be a drag if we all agreed all the time. Although he had some tremendous outings I think its a classic case of an agreed upon assumption by many that he's the best Mexican fighter that ever lived and I just dont see it that way. Not even close. Again he has been in some great fights but this involves 135 and him being pitted against perhaps the greatest lightweight that ever lived.
Lets see other then;
Duran being a much better boxer
A much better puncher generally like selection
A dominant lightweight
With much better footwork
A much better jab
Much more power
Noticeably faster
Superior defense
Superior head movement
Only beaten once in about 65 fights at 135 and in a fight he was finishing strong in.
oh and Duran never needed a loss changed to a win or an obvious drubbing called a draw to preserve an already false 0.
Other then those facts that are self evident imo to anyone who has watched the two, yeah its an even matchup.
Re: Roberto Duran vs Julio Cesar Chavez @ Lightweight
Chavez was a different boxer at light than he was later. Had some toes and moved well. But Duran was also different and a pinnacle lightweight best whenever the conversation kicks off. Duran had far more gears.
Re: Roberto Duran vs Julio Cesar Chavez @ Lightweight
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
I normally agree with you but Chavez was not over rated.
Be a drag if we all agreed all the time. Although he had some tremendous outings I think its a classic case of an agreed upon assumption by many that he's the best Mexican fighter that ever lived and I just dont see it that way. Not even close. Again he has been in some great fights but this involves 135 and him being pitted against perhaps the greatest lightweight that ever lived.
Lets see other then;
Duran being a much better boxer
A much better puncher generally like selection
A dominant lightweight
With much better footwork
A much better jab
Much more power
Noticeably faster
Superior defense
Superior head movement
Only beaten once in about 65 fights at 135 and in a fight he was finishing strong in.
oh and Duran never needed a loss changed to a win or an obvious drubbing called a draw to preserve an already false 0.
Other then those facts that are self evident imo to anyone who has watched the two, yeah its an even matchup.
That is cold to bring up what happened after near the end of his career. Duran quit and that is the worst thing a fighter could ever do.
Re: Roberto Duran vs Julio Cesar Chavez @ Lightweight
I personally have never rated Chavez until watching him recently and if anything, I think some of his earlier work gets overlooked (because I have never personally seen it mentioned).
Duran fought with far more ferocity than Chavez, who (pre 90's) IMO was not an emotional fighter at all. Was far more cold faced/ calculated.
I would agree that across the span of his career, Duran showed he was a better boxer and more variation but round for round, looking at one fight at a time, I think he wasn't that dynamic. He either box/punched or savaged. Of course, I'm not saying that he didn't do this well.
What I'm saying is that at lightweight, he was more prone to slip jabs, catch jabs (leaving himself open to left-hooks), get low/ get inside and attack in straight lines. He learned to circle and jab more himself towards the late 70's but I think that against Chavez, he would be Mr. Macho kill, kill, kill and Chavez would have the opportunity to be smart. Use some aggressive lateral movement to open up and kill the body a little. Probably taking the middle rounds. Later on you would probably have to favour Duran (as a 15 round fighter) but who knows?
Re: Roberto Duran vs Julio Cesar Chavez @ Lightweight
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
I normally agree with you but Chavez was not over rated.
Be a drag if we all agreed all the time. Although he had some tremendous outings I think its a classic case of an agreed upon assumption by many that he's the best Mexican fighter that ever lived and I just dont see it that way. Not even close. Again he has been in some great fights but this involves 135 and him being pitted against perhaps the greatest lightweight that ever lived.
Lets see other then;
Duran being a much better boxer
A much better puncher generally like selection
A dominant lightweight
With much better footwork
A much better jab
Much more power
Noticeably faster
Superior defense
Superior head movement
Only beaten once in about 65 fights at 135 and in a fight he was finishing strong in.
oh and Duran never needed a loss changed to a win or an obvious drubbing called a draw to preserve an already false 0.
Other then those facts that are self evident imo to anyone who has watched the two, yeah its an even matchup.
That is cold to bring up what happened after near the end of his career. Duran quit and that is the worst thing a fighter could ever do.
But I never said a thing about that and don't even begrudge him for it. I merely touched on the Miguel Ruiz fight and the stacked cards in the Whitaker fight. I will say that 135 would be his best shot because thats when Chavez was actually his best but that best would simply not be best enough, And for the record I could not stand Duran in his heyday but he was what he was, a freakin machine who had the unfortunate luck of boxing in the Ali era and was largely overshadowed. Personally I believe there are only a handful of pugilists that could beat him or be in it til the end. Just to be clear I think he beats Floyd and Oscar at that weight.
Re: Roberto Duran vs Julio Cesar Chavez @ Lightweight
Awesome matchup between two all time greats.
I think Chavez was as tough as a piece of iron. Cold, methodical and ruthless, he applied constant pressure and was one of the best body punchers I've seen. Good chin (susceptible to cuts later on in his career, but let's assume that's not a factor here). Solid technique, but he could be frustrated by slick boxers and Duran would have a definite edge in speed here.
Duran, at lightweight was supreme ... a real 'monstor for his weight' and probably the preeminent fighter of the 1970's. Loved fighting, and was entertainingly savage but had vastly underestimated boxing skills. A concussive puncher with a good chin.
Oddly enough, I think that if Hands of Stone came out boxing, controlling distance and pace as we know he can, I suspect he out points Chavez 8 times out of ten. He had the slicker skills and that plays to Julio's relative lack of speed.
There's no way that would happen, though. These two proud warriors would be absolutely hyped by the Mexico/Panama confrontation and would throw all caution to the wind and engage in a wild slugfest.
It would be something of a pick 'em fight, I have to say.
If I had to get off the fence, I would favour Duran simply because his best weight was lightweight while Chavez was better at higher poundages. Duran also had the edge in speed, and against Chavez, speed kills.'
Re: Roberto Duran vs Julio Cesar Chavez @ Lightweight
Maybe speed is the factor in the fight to give the edge to Duran but it would be close and very entertaining. Both were bad losers.
