EU referendum

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Originally Posted by Master

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Originally Posted by Britkid

The EU is the only way to even slightly control the Tories. There are some terrible people putting the case for membership, but I think it is important to hold your nose and vote in, because it is likely turnout will be low (on the evidence of the 75 campaign).

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I think defeated Cameron will cause him to resign.

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Yes, that is an unsaid given. And it will mean a Johnson or Patel will be in prime position to take over.

Boris is in the no camp, his dad is in the yes one. I hate them all.

Whatever the general consensus is amongst you lot ....... I will do the opposite;D

Notice all the multi nationals and big businesses have come out today to say that the economy will suffer if we leave EU. Just shows you they are scared, will miss out on making millions, not paying their fair share of taxeses and have more zero hour contracts.

Even more reason to stay out of it.

Before every major treaty over the years when they've integrated further they've issued a plan about ten years before the treaty. They've issued a new plan called the Five Presidents Report. It basically goes all the way. Full banking and fiscal union and common institutions like a euro army. The banking and fiscal union means a euro trasury that taxes and spends for the whole of europe and the banking union means the euro central bank issues bonds and all countries share each others' debt. So Greece and Italy's debt is all pooled together with ours and Germany's debt and we're all responsible for it and any future banks going bust in europe.

So if you're voting yes that's what they're aiming for eventually. If they don't get it it's only because the common currency is falling apart.

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

Before every major treaty over the years when they've integrated further they've issued a plan about ten years before the treaty. They've issued a new plan called the Five Presidents Report. It basically goes all the way. Full banking and fiscal union and common institutions like a euro army. The banking and fiscal union means a euro trasury that taxes and spends for the whole of europe and the banking union means the euro central bank issues bonds and all countries share each others' debt. So Greece and Italy's debt is all pooled together with ours and Germany's debt and we're all responsible for it and any future banks going bust in europe.

So if you're voting yes that's what they're aiming for eventually. If they don't get it it's only because the common currency is falling apart.

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Is that a bad thing though? I think the way forward is greater European unity. It is a way of improving the rights of the working class whilst competing on the world stage. It is far from perfect, but short of revolution and the end Capitalism, to me it is the best way to go.

No way! European Union is all about multinationals and corporations with the bureaucracy keeping it afloat. That is why big business and politicians want it.

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Centralised power is an unwieldy headache and some are in favour of that on a grander scale? For what? How is it good in the long run? Iceland is a model to aspire to, but the EU is quite the opposite. Undemocratic, unaudited and unnacountable.

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If we are to stay in the Capitalist society, then centralization of power is the way to go. It is the only hope to control the market. As for democracy, that is an abstract concept, too many variants and thus a luxury too far in this form of society. Surely the only 'true' democracy is the Greek form of 'lottery of the people'; where like jury duty every time a governmental post is available, every 'qualified' adult's name is put in a 'hat' and someone is drawn to be take over the post?!

I know nothing about it me soz

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

The smaller the centralised system the more responsive it can be as seen in Iceland who locked up their bankers and changed their system. I don't see an entity like the EU doing that. The EU seems to be run by and for the bankers as seen by the abhorrent treatment of Greece.

Democracy is a state that responds to the will of the people and unfortunately such an entity is getting rarer and rarer. It can never be found in an unelectable, unaudited, centralised system of financialisation though and that applies to a UK outside the EU too.

Now obviously a Tory government away from Europe isn't any different and that is where I think Labour is again wrong. People don't trust Labour on immigration or Europe and so the UK is in a rough place. It reminds me of the Scottish referendum. Stay or else! Feel the fear!

The funny thing is that there was hope in a free Scotland. There is no hope in Europe or out of it when people carry on living in cuckoo ponzi promise land of perpetual Torydom and a Labour Party that should really remember Benn to the letter. There are a lot of Labour supporters that have left because they don't want immigration or the EU. Labour is still cutting its own nose off by staying somewhat neutral. I don't think Corbyn believes in the EU going on his past comments, but here he is saying hold your noses let's stay. It's a chin scratcher.

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What you are rightly (IMO) asking for though is impractical in our current system. You want an Anarcho based civilization built around small collectives doing what is wanted amongst the group. That in the short and medium term is not on the table.

So I would hope people make their decisions based on the realities of the situation in hand:

A realization that technology is 350% more likely to take your job than a migrant.

Closer union with 'strangers' leads to a better understanding of them and thus less conflict.

A more centralized government in a Capitalist society has more chance of controlling the market place.

And the European Union has more chance to compete with Japan, The US and China than the UK as a stand alone state.

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Originally Posted by erics44

I know nothing about it me soz

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Don't worry about it mate, nobody else on here does either ;D

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Originally Posted by Britkid

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

The smaller the centralised system the more responsive it can be as seen in Iceland who locked up their bankers and changed their system. I don't see an entity like the EU doing that. The EU seems to be run by and for the bankers as seen by the abhorrent treatment of Greece.

Democracy is a state that responds to the will of the people and unfortunately such an entity is getting rarer and rarer. It can never be found in an unelectable, unaudited, centralised system of financialisation though and that applies to a UK outside the EU too.

Now obviously a Tory government away from Europe isn't any different and that is where I think Labour is again wrong. People don't trust Labour on immigration or Europe and so the UK is in a rough place. It reminds me of the Scottish referendum. Stay or else! Feel the fear!

The funny thing is that there was hope in a free Scotland. There is no hope in Europe or out of it when people carry on living in cuckoo ponzi promise land of perpetual Torydom and a Labour Party that should really remember Benn to the letter. There are a lot of Labour supporters that have left because they don't want immigration or the EU. Labour is still cutting its own nose off by staying somewhat neutral. I don't think Corbyn believes in the EU going on his past comments, but here he is saying hold your noses let's stay. It's a chin scratcher.

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What you are rightly (IMO) asking for though is impractical in our current system. You want an Anarcho based civilization built around small collectives doing what is wanted amongst the group. That in the short and medium term is not on the table.

So I would hope people make their decisions based on the realities of the situation in hand:

A realization that technology is 350% more likely to take your job than a migrant.

Closer union with 'strangers' leads to a better understanding of them and thus less conflict.

A more centralized government in a Capitalist society has more chance of controlling the market place.

And the European Union has more chance to compete with Japan, The US and China than the UK as a stand alone state.

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Try telling that to some of my friends and family that lost there jobs to migrant workers,;) go to our
local industrial estate and the majority of workers are migrant.;) :(

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Originally Posted by Dia bando

Try telling that to some of my friends and family that lost there jobs to migrant workers,;) go to our
local industrial estate and the majority of workers are migrant.;) :(

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True it is small comfort if you are that 20% that lose out (as opposed to the 70% who lose their jobs to technology)

Why did they lose their jobs? Was it a cost thing? If it was, it will be EU who make it a more 'equal playing field' long term, not the Eton elite who run the UK...

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Originally Posted by Britkid

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

Before every major treaty over the years when they've integrated further they've issued a plan about ten years before the treaty. They've issued a new plan called the Five Presidents Report. It basically goes all the way. Full banking and fiscal union and common institutions like a euro army. The banking and fiscal union means a euro trasury that taxes and spends for the whole of europe and the banking union means the euro central bank issues bonds and all countries share each others' debt. So Greece and Italy's debt is all pooled together with ours and Germany's debt and we're all responsible for it and any future banks going bust in europe.

So if you're voting yes that's what they're aiming for eventually. If they don't get it it's only because the common currency is falling apart.

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Is that a bad thing though? I think the way forward is greater European unity. It is a way of improving the rights of the working class whilst competing on the world stage. It is far from perfect, but short of revolution and the end Capitalism, to me it is the best way to go.

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They're improving the rights of the working class by the euro central bank enforcing policies which slash wages and benefits in the direction of Asian levels and will continue to do so until they get there. They're improving the rights of working class people by allowing uncontrolled immigration from the third world which increases competition for jobs, slashes the pay rates of those europeans who do manage to hold onto their jobs and puts massive pressure on housing costs and school places/access to healthcare etc. While they're letting the immigrants in they're slashing funding for schools, hospitals, social housing etc. All of these things are easier to do with a massive bureaucracy that runs everything and takes away the sovereignty of individual countries to change or stop these things. They also can sign huge trade agreements on behalf of everybody which put european workers in direct competition with Asian workers.

The whole fucking thing is run by big business. You can't rent any office space for several miles near Brussels centre or Strasbourg centre because it's all full of lobbyists buying off EU politicians.

The EU is an absolute undemocratic shambles of corporate servants making money bending over for corporations. It's a fucking organised racket and deserves to be RICOd and the fucking lot of them sent off to a Federal penitentiary.

I'm not even scratching the surface here. Maybe more time next week mate.

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

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Originally Posted by Britkid

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

Before every major treaty over the years when they've integrated further they've issued a plan about ten years before the treaty. They've issued a new plan called the Five Presidents Report. It basically goes all the way. Full banking and fiscal union and common institutions like a euro army. The banking and fiscal union means a euro trasury that taxes and spends for the whole of europe and the banking union means the euro central bank issues bonds and all countries share each others' debt. So Greece and Italy's debt is all pooled together with ours and Germany's debt and we're all responsible for it and any future banks going bust in europe.

So if you're voting yes that's what they're aiming for eventually. If they don't get it it's only because the common currency is falling apart.

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Is that a bad thing though? I think the way forward is greater European unity. It is a way of improving the rights of the working class whilst competing on the world stage. It is far from perfect, but short of revolution and the end Capitalism, to me it is the best way to go.

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They're improving the rights of the working class by the euro central bank enforcing policies which slash wages and benefits in the direction of Asian levels and will continue to do so until they get there. They're improving the rights of working class people by allowing uncontrolled immigration from the third world which increases competition for jobs, slashes the pay rates of those europeans who do manage to hold onto their jobs and puts massive pressure on housing costs and school places/access to healthcare etc. While they're letting the immigrants in they're slashing funding for schools, hospitals, social housing etc. All of these things are easier to do with a massive bureaucracy that runs everything and takes away the sovereignty of individual countries to change or stop these things. They also can sign huge trade agreements on behalf of everybody which put european workers in direct competition with Asian workers.

The whole fucking thing is run by big business. You can't rent any office space for several miles near Brussels centre or Strasbourg centre because it's all full of lobbyists buying off EU politicians.

The EU is an absolute undemocratic shambles of corporate servants making money bending over for corporations. It's a fucking organised racket and deserves to be RICOd and the fucking lot of them sent off to a Federal penitentiary.

I'm not even scratching the surface here. Maybe more time next week mate.

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Migration and democracy... LOL if the problem is hard and complicated blame the migrant, and as for democracy, what is that? What is your interpretation?

If job security is your concern, start smashing up computers and other technologies; as they are three and a half times more likely to cost the average person their job, than a migrant.