Re: Professional boxers in Olympics is a bad idea, say fighters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
p4pking
Cuba has always been different because their best fighters often practically had to stay in the am's, it was their only good life and career choice.
Often? Try ALWAYS, and USSR very same and China very same (with subtle changes recently).
As for no one is getting hurt...basketball is a non-contact sport, try something a bit more physical...are amateurs allowed in/competitive in Olympic Hockey? Are people being hurt there? Are amateur boxers guaranteed to be safe without adding professionals in?
I think the main issue everyone is missing is that there would be more eyes on Olympic boxing if professionals were involved and when you're attempting to grow a sport this could help the product.....it would definitely help out the United States' boxing program, imagine it, amateurs getting to learn from professionals, professional trainers, professional sponsors....I fail to see the downside other than the "we don't want a 16 year old fighting his first fight against a 32 year old current title holder" which I'm sorry is a bogus claim, amateur boxing wouldn't allow that fight to take place.
I said often because some Cubans have defected in recent years, understand that stuff. Yes hockey is rough of course, but it's still not the sole object of the game to hurt the other players, and there are a far greater number of elite pros compared to boxing, as there is in any team sport. It's also a pretty limited number of countries that typically do well, if Russia was set to play Fiji I wouldn't be terribly interested in that either, but boxing is very international. I said I don't follow the amateurs so I'm pleading ignorance here, but how could they simply "not allow" fights to take place, if that's otherwise how the format would work? Doesn't that just cause more problems? Would they make an established pro exempt from having to qualify the way anyone else would, etc?
Re: Professional boxers in Olympics is a bad idea, say fighters
What successful professional making top dollar defending against mediocre or not so mediocre pros would want to lose career time and momentum, real network exposure or run the risk of coming up short vs a novice in a system that we already know is broken and counts punches like a cup of pennies being dumped into a coinstar machine. It sounds like a gimmick short cut move to pump up the amateur program instead of fixing its shortcomings and investing in it. Not to mention it's like bringing in ringers and the kids just finding their way and hitting puberty are put on the back burner. Remember when the seniors crashed your jr. high graduation party ;D. Just think there has to be a separation and the last thing we need is more mix of amateur style-approach and influence on the pro ring if you ask me. For every Lomanchenko there is a boat load of Howard Davis jr..rip man..that never left the dock.
Re: Professional boxers in Olympics is a bad idea, say fighters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Primo Carnera
Khan thinks it's a good idea though. Just about sums the cunt up really!
Maybe he'll fight at HW for another circus show.
Agreed. I saw the khan thread before this one.
Re: Professional boxers in Olympics is a bad idea, say fighters
The whole Olympic ethos has been sold down the river. It's a dumb idea and pretty indefensible. Everything of value seems to have been sacrificed and replaced by money, the most token of symbols. Apples and Oranges.
Re: Professional boxers in Olympics is a bad idea, say fighters
Why would a professional want to ruin a future champion's coming out party by derailing his dream? The amateur is working his way up the ladder and the pro has already been there and now because he didn't do well as a pro he wants to set things straight by recreating memory lane? So what's Khan's excuse? Pros are going backward in time? There was a weekly comedy show about a man and wife with three boys and the youngest boy was jealous that he would not receive his big share of attention now that the new baby, a boy is arriving in a week. One of the older brothers told him that he would have the honor of protecting him and have him under his wing. The little guy said,"Oh boy I get to kick butt," Does that remind you of anyone?
Re: Professional boxers in Olympics is a bad idea, say fighters
I think that most prime fighters do it, but many people at the end of their careers would. Someone like wlad could decide at this stage that he is about to retire anyways so he might as well fight in the Olympics to finish off his career.
There is a difference between amateurs and pro. Professionals train as a job. Most amateurs do it on the side. Also, even the amateurs that train a lot like ones from Cuba, they aren't training their punching power. Imagine Tyson who didn't make the Olympics decides to enter them in 2000. If he fought some kid from Finland, he may do serious damage. He wouldn't just be taking up points. He would put everything he had on those punches.
Re: Professional boxers in Olympics is a bad idea, say fighters
Golovkin and Ward can fight for millions in a pro ring or a shiny medal at the olympics. Wonder what they'd choose :D
Even if it forced pros together it wouldn't mean nothing as they're 3 round fights.
Re: Professional boxers in Olympics is a bad idea, say fighters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
p4pking
I said often because some Cubans have defected in recent years, understand that stuff. Yes hockey is rough of course, but it's still not the sole object of the game to hurt the other players, and there are a far greater number of elite pros compared to boxing, as there is in any team sport. It's also a pretty limited number of countries that typically do well, if Russia was set to play Fiji I wouldn't be terribly interested in that either, but boxing is very international. I said I don't follow the amateurs so I'm pleading ignorance here, but how could they simply "not allow" fights to take place, if that's otherwise how the format would work? Doesn't that just cause more problems? Would they make an established pro exempt from having to qualify the way anyone else would, etc?
OK, follow me on this ....Felix Savon WAS a "professional amateur boxer" the same way that the USSR had "professional amateur hockey players". Those guys never had jobs outside of their sports, they never wanted for anything, they were housed, they were fed, they were allowed to train 24/7 and focus on their respective sports, they were given the best equipment, the best coaches none of which THEY had to pay for.....how is that not "professional"?!?!?! What is that if not the life of a professional athlete???
Think about this for a second, there's no threshold for professional boxers, Mullet Boxer wasn't an amateur boxer, why allow guys who can't even fight to box professionally without headgear, without a referee who is legitimately focused on safety first?
Re: Professional boxers in Olympics is a bad idea, say fighters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
p4pking
I said often because some Cubans have defected in recent years, understand that stuff. Yes hockey is rough of course, but it's still not the sole object of the game to hurt the other players, and there are a far greater number of elite pros compared to boxing, as there is in any team sport. It's also a pretty limited number of countries that typically do well, if Russia was set to play Fiji I wouldn't be terribly interested in that either, but boxing is very international. I said I don't follow the amateurs so I'm pleading ignorance here, but how could they simply "not allow" fights to take place, if that's otherwise how the format would work? Doesn't that just cause more problems? Would they make an established pro exempt from having to qualify the way anyone else would, etc?
OK, follow me on this ....Felix Savon WAS a "professional amateur boxer" the same way that the USSR had "professional amateur hockey players". Those guys never had jobs outside of their sports, they never wanted for anything, they were housed, they were fed, they were allowed to train 24/7 and focus on their respective sports, they were given the best equipment, the best coaches none of which THEY had to pay for.....how is that not "professional"?!?!?! What is that if not the life of a professional athlete???
Think about this for a second, there's no threshold for professional boxers, Mullet Boxer wasn't an amateur boxer, why allow guys who can't even fight to box professionally without headgear, without a referee who is legitimately focused on safety first?
What is all the ?!?!?!?! about? Cubans and Soviet Russians who never wanted for anything, is that a joke;D I get your point about the coaching, equipment and caliber of a select few guys, but you seriously don't think they would have rather earned some real money? The fact they couldn't is inherently about as unprofessional as it gets. I googled it out of curiosity, and Telifio Stevenson and Savon were as far as I can tell the only boxers to ever medal in more than one olympics. Outside of Cuba and perhaps Russia, there are virtually no boxers to even compete more than once.
Of course there are terrible pros and mismatches happen all day, many commissions are woefully incompetent, but in theory they are still there to put a stop to that. The amateurs have tournaments where you may fight anyone and have to qualify that way.
Re: Professional boxers in Olympics is a bad idea, say fighters
I dont think its a good idea.
But I dont think its dangerous for the amateurs. If you have qualified for the olympics you are an extremely skilled fight and know what you are doing. Its also only a 3 round fight.
As I have said before I dont think the pros that go to olympics will do well. Having to make weight for a week of qualifying and then for 2 weeks for the competition itself will not suit them at all. Theres a lot of very experienced and skilled Cuban fighters that I believe would make pros look silly over 3 rounds.
Re: Professional boxers in Olympics is a bad idea, say fighters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
p4pking
What is all the ?!?!?!?! about? Cubans and Soviet Russians who never wanted for anything, is that a joke;D I get your point about the coaching, equipment and caliber of a select few guys, but you seriously don't think they would have rather earned some real money? The fact they couldn't is inherently about as unprofessional as it gets. I googled it out of curiosity, and Telifio Stevenson and Savon were as far as I can tell the only boxers to ever medal in more than one olympics. Outside of Cuba and perhaps Russia, there are virtually no boxers to even compete more than once.
Of course there are terrible pros and mismatches happen all day, many commissions are woefully incompetent, but in theory they are still there to put a stop to that. The amateurs have tournaments where you may fight anyone and have to qualify that way.
Just so we are clear you're saying that earning money makes you a professional rather than having a sport as your vocation (which is what Stevenson and Savon did)? I know PLENTY of "professional boxers" who have jobs outside the ring. Remember that Glen Johnson was still working outside of boxing (construction I believe) before RJJ fought him which allowed for Glen to focus solely on boxing.
As for your question "but you seriously don't think they would have rather earned some real money?", Teofilo Stevenson at least was a true Commie scoffing at the idea of fighting Ali saying: "What good is 1 million dollars compared to the love of 8 million Cubans?"....the government subsidizes those athletes in a manner which is as professional as you can get!
Felix Savon was able to JUST BOX....how many US amateurs are able to do that? How many British amateurs are able to do that? If they want to allow pros to fight in the Olympics then go ahead, it'll only make the Golden Gloves and Goodwill Games the new must have prizes for the amateurs. Guillermo Rigondeaux won 2 Gold medals, Lazlo Papp won 3 Olympic Gold medals, Vasyl Lomachenko won 2 Gold medals, Zou Shimming won 2 Gold medals and 1 Bronze medal, Paddy Barnes won 2 Bronze medals, Artur Olech won 2 Silver medals, Maikro Romero won 1 Gold and 1 Bronze medal, Istvan Kovacs won 1 Gold and 1 Bronze medal, Mario Kindelan won 2 Gold medals, Jerzy Kulej won 2 Gold medals, Hector Vinent won 2 Gold medals, Roniel Iglesias won 1 Gold and 1 Bronze medal, Oleg Saitov won 2 Gold medals, Juan Hernandez Sierra won 2 Silver medals, Ariel Hernandez won 2 Gold medals, Zbigniew Pietrzykowski won 1 Silver and 1 Bronze medal, Soren Peterson won 2 Silver medals....it happens quite a bit actually.
Re: Professional boxers in Olympics is a bad idea, say fighters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
p4pking
What is all the ?!?!?!?! about? Cubans and Soviet Russians who never wanted for anything, is that a joke;D I get your point about the coaching, equipment and caliber of a select few guys, but you seriously don't think they would have rather earned some real money? The fact they couldn't is inherently about as unprofessional as it gets. I googled it out of curiosity, and Telifio Stevenson and Savon were as far as I can tell the only boxers to ever medal in more than one olympics. Outside of Cuba and perhaps Russia, there are virtually no boxers to even compete more than once.
Of course there are terrible pros and mismatches happen all day, many commissions are woefully incompetent, but in theory they are still there to put a stop to that. The amateurs have tournaments where you may fight anyone and have to qualify that way.
Just so we are clear you're saying that earning money makes you a professional rather than having a sport as your vocation (which is what Stevenson and Savon did)? I know PLENTY of "professional boxers" who have jobs outside the ring. Remember that Glen Johnson was still working outside of boxing (construction I believe) before RJJ fought him which allowed for Glen to focus solely on boxing.
As for your question
"but you seriously don't think they would have rather earned some real money?", Teofilo Stevenson at least was a true Commie scoffing at the idea of fighting Ali saying: "What good is 1 million dollars compared to the love of 8 million Cubans?"....the government subsidizes those athletes in a manner which is as professional as you can get!
Felix Savon was able to JUST BOX....how many US amateurs are able to do that? How many British amateurs are able to do that? If they want to allow pros to fight in the Olympics then go ahead, it'll only make the Golden Gloves and Goodwill Games the new must have prizes for the amateurs. Guillermo Rigondeaux won 2 Gold medals, Lazlo Papp won 3 Olympic Gold medals, Vasyl Lomachenko won 2 Gold medals, Zou Shimming won 2 Gold medals and 1 Bronze medal, Paddy Barnes won 2 Bronze medals, Artur Olech won 2 Silver medals, Maikro Romero won 1 Gold and 1 Bronze medal, Istvan Kovacs won 1 Gold and 1 Bronze medal, Mario Kindelan won 2 Gold medals, Jerzy Kulej won 2 Gold medals, Hector Vinent won 2 Gold medals, Roniel Iglesias won 1 Gold and 1 Bronze medal, Oleg Saitov won 2 Gold medals, Juan Hernandez Sierra won 2 Silver medals, Ariel Hernandez won 2 Gold medals, Zbigniew Pietrzykowski won 1 Silver and 1 Bronze medal, Soren Peterson won 2 Silver medals....it happens quite a bit actually.
We are never going to be clear if you keep moving the goal posts;D. Most pros don't make any money, but they have the opportunity to, if they are good enough! Amateurs may get sponsorship or kickbacks from their commie governments, but I don't see how you can say that's akin to being a pro, they still don't have the right to negotiate and demand their market value. I suspect this being the case will make this argument a moot point as very few pros will show any interest in going to the olympics unless they are near the end of their earning potential. Didn't realize Rigo and Loma had medaled more than once but it makes sense with their age. I'm sure they are happy to have turned pro and made a better living as well.
Re: Professional boxers in Olympics is a bad idea, say fighters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
p4pking
What is all the ?!?!?!?! about? Cubans and Soviet Russians who never wanted for anything, is that a joke;D I get your point about the coaching, equipment and caliber of a select few guys, but you seriously don't think they would have rather earned some real money? The fact they couldn't is inherently about as unprofessional as it gets. I googled it out of curiosity, and Telifio Stevenson and Savon were as far as I can tell the only boxers to ever medal in more than one olympics. Outside of Cuba and perhaps Russia, there are virtually no boxers to even compete more than once.
Of course there are terrible pros and mismatches happen all day, many commissions are woefully incompetent, but in theory they are still there to put a stop to that. The amateurs have tournaments where you may fight anyone and have to qualify that way.
Just so we are clear you're saying that earning money makes you a professional rather than having a sport as your vocation (which is what Stevenson and Savon did)? I know PLENTY of "professional boxers" who have jobs outside the ring. Remember that Glen Johnson was still working outside of boxing (construction I believe) before RJJ fought him which allowed for Glen to focus solely on boxing.
As for your question
"but you seriously don't think they would have rather earned some real money?", Teofilo Stevenson at least was a true Commie scoffing at the idea of fighting Ali saying: "What good is 1 million dollars compared to the love of 8 million Cubans?"....the government subsidizes those athletes in a manner which is as professional as you can get!
Felix Savon was able to JUST BOX....how many US amateurs are able to do that? How many British amateurs are able to do that? If they want to allow pros to fight in the Olympics then go ahead, it'll only make the Golden Gloves and Goodwill Games the new must have prizes for the amateurs. Guillermo Rigondeaux won 2 Gold medals, Lazlo Papp won 3 Olympic Gold medals, Vasyl Lomachenko won 2 Gold medals, Zou Shimming won 2 Gold medals and 1 Bronze medal, Paddy Barnes won 2 Bronze medals, Artur Olech won 2 Silver medals, Maikro Romero won 1 Gold and 1 Bronze medal, Istvan Kovacs won 1 Gold and 1 Bronze medal, Mario Kindelan won 2 Gold medals, Jerzy Kulej won 2 Gold medals, Hector Vinent won 2 Gold medals, Roniel Iglesias won 1 Gold and 1 Bronze medal, Oleg Saitov won 2 Gold medals, Juan Hernandez Sierra won 2 Silver medals, Ariel Hernandez won 2 Gold medals, Zbigniew Pietrzykowski won 1 Silver and 1 Bronze medal, Soren Peterson won 2 Silver medals....it happens quite a bit actually.
Just with regards how many British/US amateurs can just box. Quite a lot of them I would say. Huge investments have gon into amateur boxing. In Ireland if you are a top amateur boxer and train in the high performance unit you get funding as you say and these guys wouldnt have other jobs (theyd get extra funds through sponsorships etc. Also with the WSB and APB you get paid per fight. This would be similar in a lot of countries. I know that Azerbaijan has spent a fortune investing in amateur boxing. Couldnt comment on the US lads but I would imagine a lot of them wouldnt have other jobs.
