Haye was the Lineal Cruiserweight champion. Mormeck and Braithwaite were 1 & 2 when they fought to claim the vacant title (Nelson was probably 3rd at best due to inactivity and a couple of close calls).Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
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Haye was the Lineal Cruiserweight champion. Mormeck and Braithwaite were 1 & 2 when they fought to claim the vacant title (Nelson was probably 3rd at best due to inactivity and a couple of close calls).Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Are you sure that was lineal or the Ring belt?Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaHaye was the Lineal Cruiserweight champion. Mormeck and Braithwaite were 1 & 2 when they fought to claim the vacant title (Nelson was probably 3rd at best due to inactivity and a couple of close calls).Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Mormeck-Bell unified the WBC, WBA and IBF titles (the IBF then stripped Mormeck), Haye beat Mormeck becoming THE man (lineal), then for good measure beat Enzo Macc for the WBO, he has as much right as any to claim undisputed.
They were the top 2 in the division, so I'd agree with lineal.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterAre you sure that was lineal or the Ring belt?Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaHaye was the Lineal Cruiserweight champion. Mormeck and Braithwaite were 1 & 2 when they fought to claim the vacant title (Nelson was probably 3rd at best due to inactivity and a couple of close calls).Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Mormeck-Bell unified the WBC, WBA and IBF titles (the IBF then stripped Mormeck), Haye beat Mormeck becoming THE man (lineal), then for good measure beat Enzo Macc for the WBO, he has as much right as any to claim undisputed.
Maybe leave it vacant but only because of Kessler not Bute.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaDefinitely established Ward as top of the division.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterIt caused tons of arguments on here as Bute had a big following claiming he was the best supermiddle. Not for me though, Ward-Froch had better form than him so was fine by me, and I believe Froch annihilating Bute was some kind of justification (as Master said).Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaThat is besides the point, Bute was considered by many to be #1 or #2 in the division heading into Ward/Froch.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterFroch annihated Bute later on should tell us that Bute was a paper champ.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaWith Ward/Froch, many rated the undefeated IBF champion Bute ahead of Froch at the time. Putting the legitimacy of the lineal title being on the line in question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
At the very least it cemented Andre Ward's claim to be no.1 in the division.
Froch had lost to Kessler (no shame in that), who Ward had just beaten. Bute was unbeaten until running into Froch, although he had the scare against Andrade in the first encounter. He blew him away in the rematch.
This was another example where it would have been better to leave the titles (both Ring & Lineal) vacant.
I don't think cometitive losses to top-class opposition should demote fighters, and Kessler is an all-time great supermiddle. Bute's lofty ranking was down to European fighters being underrated at that time, remember, although only 10 years ago, the East-Euro/Russian invasion had yet to be accepted Stateside, guys like Bute were fighting on HBO/Showtime so naturally overhyped.
Leading up to the Ward fight this was their opposition between 2008-2010.
Bute - Miranda, Andrade, Mendy, Magee and Johnson.
Froch - Pascal, Taylor, Dirrell, Kessler (L), Abraham and Johnson.
YET!!! Bute was ranked ahead of Froch!!! That is ridiculous. Froch not only beat far better opposition he'd already knocked Magee unconcious and matched the Johnson win.
Great Post.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterMaybe leave it vacant but only because of Kessler not Bute.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaDefinitely established Ward as top of the division.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterIt caused tons of arguments on here as Bute had a big following claiming he was the best supermiddle. Not for me though, Ward-Froch had better form than him so was fine by me, and I believe Froch annihilating Bute was some kind of justification (as Master said).Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaThat is besides the point, Bute was considered by many to be #1 or #2 in the division heading into Ward/Froch.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterFroch annihated Bute later on should tell us that Bute was a paper champ.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaWith Ward/Froch, many rated the undefeated IBF champion Bute ahead of Froch at the time. Putting the legitimacy of the lineal title being on the line in question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
At the very least it cemented Andre Ward's claim to be no.1 in the division.
Froch had lost to Kessler (no shame in that), who Ward had just beaten. Bute was unbeaten until running into Froch, although he had the scare against Andrade in the first encounter. He blew him away in the rematch.
This was another example where it would have been better to leave the titles (both Ring & Lineal) vacant.
I don't think cometitive losses to top-class opposition should demote fighters, and Kessler is an all-time great supermiddle. Bute's lofty ranking was down to European fighters being underrated at that time, remember, although only 10 years ago, the East-Euro/Russian invasion had yet to be accepted Stateside, guys like Bute were fighting on HBO/Showtime so naturally getting constantly overhyped.
Leading up to the Ward fight this was their opposition between 2008-2010.
Bute - Miranda, Andrade, Mendy, Magee and Johnson.
Froch - Pascal, Taylor, Dirrell, Kessler (L), Abraham and Johnson.
YET!!! Bute was ranked ahead of Froch!!! That is ridiculous. Froch not only beat far better opposition he'd already knocked Magee unconcious and matched the Johnson win.
Depending how a fighter loses to a higher rated guy and what others have done, I'd agree about not demoing fighters.
I think many fans put too much stock in unbeaten records, rather than opposition. Which seems the case with Bute at the time.
There was definitely a dispute about Ward/Froch being 1 & 2 tho, so it would have been better to leave the lineal title vacant.
Although the more I look into the lineal, the more holes I see in the concept. Mainly due to there being no main authority to determind the concensus rankings.