Ali, the dark side of his skill

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by Starr

Lyle how can you bash Ali for the same things Wladimer and Vitali did ???  And you don't bash them in the same post?

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This is the reason Starr, Wlad and Vitali are bashed for the exact same things, I was wondering why it's ok to bash those guys for the same things Ali did.

I said that great fighters usually bend the rules in their favor guys like Demspey, Marciano, Tyson, Liston(well he went too far with the stuff he put in Ali's eyes), and yes even guys like The Klitschko's but why should Ali not have to answer the same questions?

If Ali is put on a pedestal and he doesn't answer to the same questions then it doesn't make him "The Greatest of All-Time" it puts him in a DIFFERENT category, and if all of his fans believe he's the greatest (which sure I rate him high but not #1) they should compare him to boxers the same way with the same rules or else he has an advantage that is unfair.

I don't want to knock Ali but if you campare him to someone else you have to see the bad stuff he did as well as the good just to be fair.

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Lyle you get a cool click for exploring this subject and having the onions for going against the grain on this one!!!!!That was a valid subject to be inquizitive about...Instaed of every one jumping down your throat they should see it for what it is not do discredit Ali,but to take a look at how Ali is a ring God but showed questionable discretion toward the rules, and not having to be held accountable as the rest or criticised for it, while others were crucified..........

I wuz indignant and shouting at the Ref During the Lewis, Tyson fight as that cheating bastard pushed his full 260lbs on the back of Tysons Neck for all those rounds illegally while Tyson fought probably the cleanest fight of his career and got worn down from carrying that aholes weight illegally,but know one said boo...All about the double standards...How many times did Michael Jordan travel and carry the ball an foul but got away with it??? we would have to use all of the population of the city of Chicago's fingers and toes to count...Double standards

Exactly! cc back.

Those "DOUBLE STANDARDS" if not taken into consideration lead to fights being basically popularity contests. Oh I like Ali better so he CAN hold and hit but Wlad can't...If we start to judge fighters like that then of course Ali is the best because no one else can do the things he did without getting chastized for it!

And I don't have Louis and Rocky over Ali because of race or politics but because Joe Louis defended his title 25 times...that's AWESOME, it's incredible, looking at the current heavyweights it's damn near impossible!!! Rocky was 49-0-0 and when compared with everyone's favorite fighter Nicolay Valuev there are considerations that need to be made: 1) Rocky fought anyone and everyone 2) Rocky was probably the smallest heavyweight champ ever 3) Rocky was an underdog at most times because the competition he faced was legit! 4) Valuev is going to DEFEND HIS TITLE (not warm up) against Owen Beck...show me where Rocky fought someone of that low of a calibre!

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Exactly! cc back.

Those "DOUBLE STANDARDS" if not taken into consideration lead to fights being basically popularity contests. Oh I like Ali better so he CAN hold and hit but Wlad can't...If we start to judge fighters like that then of course Ali is the best because no one else can do the things he did without getting chastized for it!

And I don't have Louis and Rocky over Ali because of race or politics but because Joe Louis defended his title 25 times...that's AWESOME, it's incredible, looking at the current heavyweights it's damn near impossible!!! Rocky was 49-0-0 and when compared with everyone's favorite fighter Nicolay Valuev there are considerations that need to be made: 1) Rocky fought anyone and everyone 2) Rocky was probably the smallest heavyweight champ ever 3) Rocky was an underdog at most times because the competition he faced was legit! 4) Valuev is going to DEFEND HIS TITLE (not warm up) against Owen Beck...show me where Rocky fought someone of that low of a calibre!

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Good points and nicely reinforced. CC

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by The Game

What's your problem with Ali? How comes you did not mention him being Muslim this time? What is the purpose of this thread? Why do you have have to be such an uptight a** all the time?

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I don't have a problem with Ali. I have a problem with people who blindly follow the guy and thought he did no wrong at all.

History has been VERY kind to Ali, maybe too kind to Ali. You seen the movie? Did he call Frazier an Uncle Tom in the movie? Nah, that wouldn't be good for the movie.

Yes Ali had incredible skill but when it comes to people saying "He could do that he's Ali" it's wrong, you know? It's preferential treatment in a FIGHT and if fights are fair then those tactics either fly or they don't....no one got the benefit of the doubt more than Ali.

I still have Ali on my all-time greats list, I only oppose his questionable tactics and the way he treated the people who were supposed to be his brothers during the civil rights movement is that wrong?

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Many fighters bend the rules, sometimes on instinct, sometimes not. It's that type of game with many diffferent characters, some endearing, some not. This is what adds to the attraction of boxing. But i think your views on Ali are a bit OTT especially when considering you still label him an all time great, which he clearly was and is.
With regards to the movie... Movies seldom give you the truth.

Hehehe, i hope you dont think i'm being presumtious, but i must guess most of you including Lyle are American. Over here in Britain we have 3 subjects that are taboo, or should i say 3 people that must never be criticised.
They are in order.
1. The Queen mother
2. Henry Cooper
3. Bobby Charlton ( soccer player in the 60's)

I imagine it must be a bit like that over there with Ali, but a great laugh anyway seeing the thread and the reaction. lmao

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Originally Posted by Freddie

Hehehe, i hope you dont think i'm being presumtious, but i must guess most of you including Lyle are American. Over here in Britain we have 3 subjects that are taboo, or should i say 3 people that must never be criticised.
They are in order.
1. The Queen mother
2. Henry Cooper
3. Bobby Charlton ( soccer player in the 60's)

I imagine it must be a bit like that over there with Ali, but a great laugh anyway seeing the thread and the reaction. lmao

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CoolClick, Freddie you might not have a lot of posts but that was a pretty good comparison. You would think I insulted the Pope or some religious figure, maybe even someone's mother but nah I was just wanting Ali to be viewed the same as every other boxer. He's a fighter, yeah he was very good, but he also bent the rules, as did other all-time greats. Don't look at his political stance, his religion, his attitude, his flamboyance, just his boxing, boxing style, and his wins and losses.

And I got like 20 sad clicks for it, oh well, little babies find someone they can't agree with or that won't bend to make everyone happy and it pisses them off.

Well thanks lyle and cool click back.
What you said makes a lot of sense and yes some people become bigger than their respective sports. Ali was in Boxing, Maradonna was in Soccer and it would appear that Schumacher is in Forula One racing. But it gives us something to talk about.I think Starr was a bit O.T.T. in his opinion about Lennox/Tyson.
After all Lennox never tried to snap someone's arm, headbutt people as a matter of course and as far as i am aware he only eats at the dinner table. Is it cos he's British that people hated seeing him humiliate an American Idol?

i dont remember Ali ever really holding and hitting or back handing ...and leaving your jab extended isnt 100% illegal cause a ref would have to prove that its a stiff arm and not just a lingering jab ...plus when ali left his jab out it was usually used to mark the spot for his right...

anyway when did ali hold and hit or back hand?

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by Freddie

Hehehe, i hope you dont think i'm being presumtious, but i must guess most of you including Lyle are American. Over here in Britain we have 3 subjects that are taboo, or should i say 3 people that must never be criticised.
They are in order.
1. The Queen mother
2. Henry Cooper
3. Bobby Charlton ( soccer player in the 60's)

I imagine it must be a bit like that over there with Ali, but a great laugh anyway seeing the thread and the reaction. lmao

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CoolClick, Freddie you might not have a lot of posts but that was a pretty good comparison. You would think I insulted the Pope or some religious figure, maybe even someone's mother but nah I was just wanting Ali to be viewed the same as every other boxer. He's a fighter, yeah he was very good, but he also bent the rules, as did other all-time greats. Don't look at his political stance, his religion, his attitude, his flamboyance, just his boxing, boxing style, and his wins and losses.

And I got like 20 sad clicks for it, oh well, little babies find someone they can't agree with or that won't bend to make everyone happy and it pisses them off.

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You probably wouldn't have received as much flack if it was the pope

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Originally Posted by mucho testosterone

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by Freddie

Hehehe, i hope you dont think i'm being presumtious, but i must guess most of you including Lyle are American. Over here in Britain we have 3 subjects that are taboo, or should i say 3 people that must never be criticised.
They are in order.
1. The Queen mother
2. Henry Cooper
3. Bobby Charlton ( soccer player in the 60's)

I imagine it must be a bit like that over there with Ali, but a great laugh anyway seeing the thread and the reaction. lmao

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CoolClick, Freddie you might not have a lot of posts but that was a pretty good comparison. You would think I insulted the Pope or some religious figure, maybe even someone's mother but nah I was just wanting Ali to be viewed the same as every other boxer. He's a fighter, yeah he was very good, but he also bent the rules, as did other all-time greats. Don't look at his political stance, his religion, his attitude, his flamboyance, just his boxing, boxing style, and his wins and losses.

And I got like 20 sad clicks for it, oh well, little babies find someone they can't agree with or that won't bend to make everyone happy and it pisses them off.

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You probably wouldn't have received as much flack if it was the pope

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Of course not, the Pope never was world champion and who's ever heard of 'pope-a-dope'?

:)

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Originally Posted by X

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Originally Posted by mucho testosterone

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by Freddie

Hehehe, i hope you dont think i'm being presumtious, but i must guess most of you including Lyle are American. Over here in Britain we have 3 subjects that are taboo, or should i say 3 people that must never be criticised.
They are in order.
1. The Queen mother
2. Henry Cooper
3. Bobby Charlton ( soccer player in the 60's)

I imagine it must be a bit like that over there with Ali, but a great laugh anyway seeing the thread and the reaction. lmao

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CoolClick, Freddie you might not have a lot of posts but that was a pretty good comparison. You would think I insulted the Pope or some religious figure, maybe even someone's mother but nah I was just wanting Ali to be viewed the same as every other boxer. He's a fighter, yeah he was very good, but he also bent the rules, as did other all-time greats. Don't look at his political stance, his religion, his attitude, his flamboyance, just his boxing, boxing style, and his wins and losses.

And I got like 20 sad clicks for it, oh well, little babies find someone they can't agree with or that won't bend to make everyone happy and it pisses them off.

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You probably wouldn't have received as much flack if it was the pope

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Of course not, the Pope never was world champion and who's ever heard of 'pope-a-dope'?

:)

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:lolhaha:
pope a dope

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Originally Posted by means2184

i dont remember Ali ever really holding and hitting or back handing ...and leaving your jab extended isnt 100% illegal cause a ref would have to prove that its a stiff arm and not just a lingering jab ...plus when ali left his jab out it was usually used to mark the spot for his right...

anyway when did ali hold and hit or back hand?

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The backhanding is most evident in his later years using the "rope-a-dope" his little pitter pat punches some of which were back handed and it's a risk you run as a fighter with your lead arm down at your waist. Did it vs Foreman especially, but maybe it was just how he threw it, elbow out fist comes from the chest to make contact.

The holding and hitting wasn't as popular for him as the plain holding but he did it to vs Foreman and Frazier. Less is made about that because Foreman and Frazier hit Ali with EVERYTHING when he held them

You DO know that Ali is consideredt he greatest of all time and is on that pedastal that it didn't have everything to do with his style right ??? Because if that was the case Larry Holmes would be number 2 ;D

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Originally Posted by Starr

You DO know that Ali is consideredt he greatest of all time and is on that pedastal that it didn't have everything to do with his style right ??? Because if that was the case Larry Holmes would be number 2 ;D

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Starr, princess, as you so delicately put it Larry would have fuck all chance of being #2 because he fought guys worse than what Marciano and Louis fought and he STILL lost to a cruiserweight....TWICE

But you're talking about Ali's style and Wladimer's style and why people aren't bashing Ali and why he is considered the greatest of all time. And I'm just showing you that the reason he is considered the greatest didn't have everything to do with his style ;)

I don't think Marciano is number 2 on an all time list, he was too limited (probably why he was an underdog) and the level of competition was not as strong as other eras. I think the '0' elevates him higher then he should be when compared to others.
Not much argument with Louis, a phenomenal record.

BTW The Queen Mother never had a 'glorious smile'.
Henry Cooper, before my time but what was the fuss about?
Bobby Charlton - England's highest scorer but not the best (Greaves on a goal per game) and perhaps the weakest of the Law, Best, Charlton Trinity

That's three taboo's broken, anyone else think of any further criticisms of the sacred three.

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Originally Posted by zacbox

That's three taboo's broken, anyone else think of any further criticisms of the sacred three.

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Surely Bobby's comb-over deserves a mention

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Originally Posted by Feather Fisted

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Originally Posted by zacbox

That's three taboo's broken, anyone else think of any further criticisms of the sacred three.

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Surely Bobby's comb-over deserves a mention

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haha of course :-[

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Originally Posted by zacbox

I don't think Marciano is number 2 on an all time list, he was too limited (probably why he was an underdog) and the level of competition was not as strong as other eras. I think the '0' elevates him higher then he should be when compared to others.
Not much argument with Louis, a phenomenal record.

BTW The Queen Mother never had a 'glorious smile'.
Henry Cooper, before my time but what was the fuss about?
Bobby Charlton - England's highest scorer but not the best (Greaves on a goal per game) and perhaps the weakest of the Law, Best, Charlton Trinity

That's three taboo's broken, anyone else think of any further criticisms of the sacred three.

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Well give anyone the chance in any era to go 49-0-0 and they will fail. Marciano trained to win and he won, he accepted nothing else.

Even Valuev will lose before he reaches 49-0-0 doesn't matter who they put him in with, someone will beat the guy before that happens