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Agreed 100%. I like Lamotta as much as the next guy but it seems like he gets way overrated for the fact that he beat Ray Robinson and gave him a string of tough fights. Styles make fights and Lamotta was a tough match for Sugar Ray, but like you said Lamotta was bested by a lot of good fighters as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
IMO Lamotta doesn't belong in the top 10
I have to say my knowledge of Monzon is minmimal as he seems to be a forgotten man in boxing with never a mention of him but he was tall and rangy and held the title with a far tighter grip than Robinson.
In the words of Monzon himself, 'Robinson may have won the title 5 times, but he lost it 4 times, I won it once and never lost it',
I go
1: Monzon
2: Hagler
3: Robinson
4: Hopkins
The likes of Greb, Zale, Ketchel, Bassilio etc I havn't seen enough of to comment.
I agree Greb was #1, Robinson second!Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
My thoughts exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrap
Most people either don't remember or just don't know who these fighters were back then.
It's not peoples faults I understand but some people come around here and just go look at the fighters record and try to pass judgement on these old school fighters like they've seen their fights or have any idea of who they're opponents were during that day in time.
People just don't know how highly regarded opponents were back then, I mean 1st and foremost he beat Benvenuti NO ONE gave Monzon a shot in hell to do it and he did. Gave the ex-champ his re-match and blasted him out in 3, and as if beating Emilie was a easy task then he did.
Another thing is that people don't know of the pesonal issues he had outside the ring and was able to go beyond them and continue to win.
Having issues with weight due to the injury he suffered in his leg thanks to his wife.
The issues he had with his family, I mean it was just a shit load of things that he overcame during that time.
I read an artcile from 1974 that read 'Monzon no es el hombre que pensavamos' / 'Monzon is not the man we thought he was' this was after Monzon had been stripped by the WBC for not fighting Rodrigo within the time he was given. Again people don't know he didn't fight him cause he was scared, he didn't fight him because of his life outside the ring interfeared. Now these aren't excuses for him not to fight, he got stripped and that was that. He got his shit together (sort of) had to cut weight and got in the ring with Rodrigo to tango beat 'em twice and ended his career on top.
Marvin was the best.Quote:
Originally Posted by stavros693000
never heard or Ray Lennard tho ? Ray Leonard was pretty good tho ;D ;D ;D ;D
Debating it isn't the same as doing it.
And how do you envision B-Hop mixing it with the big fellows ?
1 Greb
2 Monzon
3 Hagler
4 Ketchel
None of the above.....Harry Greb.. 294 career bouts 7 losses often fighting guys way out of his weight. The Ty Cobb of Middleweights.
Sugar ray robinson the best of all time dont forget jake lamotta first man to beat him although i dont consider jake the best ever he was one of the best. We must also say monzon hagler and B-Hop shit any of these guys are good enough to considered the best but Sugar ray robinson beats them all. Hell I even think he might beat RJJ at lightheavy a lot of people dont realize how could the original Sugar really was.
I think they do - but I think they also realize the original Sugar Ray was a Welterweight - he may have won the Middleweight belt 5 times, but he had to lose to gain it back. Monzon & Hagler didn't lose their belts! SRR is the G.O.T but not the greatest Middleweight imoQuote:
Originally Posted by dantheman5166
Monzon for me
:) MONZON with HAGLER a close second, a fight between these 2 would have been a classic
Roy Jones JR. didnt' stay at the weight to really do anything he was too big for it. If you include super middleweights I say he beats them all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syntax Error
I just saw my first fight of Monzon vs. Napoles and he didn't look impressive to me. He's pretty slow, he does have great technique, but he is really, really slow. I can't see him keeping up with Hagler, SRR, etc., etc.
I don't understand the "well I don't think Hagler was the best because of the loss to SRL" attitude that some people have. SRR lost to Lamotta, Turpin, Fullmer, Basillio, ect just off the top of my head. True he avenged those losses, but I don't think its fair to hold the fact that SRL would never get anywhere near him again against Hagler. It was a close, controversial fight that could have went either way.
That being said I think its a tossup between Hagler and Monzon for #1 and #2 spot, with SRR at #3
Pick one Greb Ketchall Monzon Hagler Darcey you wont be far out.
YOur full of shit. No way can Robinson handle Roy JOnes Jr.. Roy is faster, albeit by a sliver, he is way too big, and strong for Robinson. By the time RObinson was big enough to fight at LHW he was an old man and Roy would have beaten that version of Ray pretty easily. Also how is Lamotta one of the best ever? Who did he beat besides RObinson? He finished 83-19(only 30 by ko which means he didn't have that much power). Zivic was the only "big" name besides Robinson he beat. I think heart and him weighing, at the weigh-in, 16 pounds more than RObinson was the reason he won the fight. Also he was the first middleweight Robinson faced, and he was as tough as nails. But could have he handled the guys his own size like Hopkins, Hagler, Monzon, etc.? No way. Also about Greb, whos actually seen him fight? I doubt most of you have. And he didn't fight at middleweight. IF you go on boxrec whenever it shows his weight it was almost always over 160.Quote:
Originally Posted by dantheman5166
By best are measuring by accomplishments or who would win in their prime?
Either way Hagler, Monzon,Greb & Hopkins stack up well.
I like Hagler.
Based on accomplishments, the road traveled, & opposition I would say Hagler. But there is no cut in stone right answer. Everyone has their own opinion.
Hagler destroys Jones at middle or supermiddle IMO, He would terrify Jones!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Hagler was truly phenomenal. His non stop affective pressure & great chin was a pleasure to watch. It didn;t hurt that he was always in great shape. There are so many things that he could be admired for as a fighter but these are a few that were top notch.
Tarver is a quitter in the ring and that wasn't an impressive win IMO. All he did was come in with the right hand and his head down and hold and hit in the back to wear him down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimboogie
The only heavy he wants to fight is Maskaev so you do the math on that one.
BTW, he started his career at light heavy so it's not like hes a small guy.
Yeah just like he destroyed Leonard who hadn't foughten in three years? Roy JOnes hits harder than Hagler, is way faster than Hagler, and his fight with James Toney should show that though Toney could deal with the fast Nunn he couldn't deal with the speed and power of Roy. People will say what about Hearns, but Hearns had a snaping ko punch, but he didn't have the strength of Roy which changes a punch. Even Emanuel overexagerates all his fighters thought Hearns didn't hit particularly hard, but Roy did at 160 and 168, and he was too fast (especially of reflexes) for Hagler. Nobody has ever countered like Roy.Quote:
Originally Posted by X
I think they do - but I think they also realize the original Sugar Ray was a Welterweight - he may have won the Middleweight belt 5 times, but he had to lose to gain it back. Monzon & Hagler didn't lose their belts! SRR is the G.O.T but not the greatest Middleweight imo
well lets see here if you dont think sugar ray robinson would outpoint marvin hagler but ray leonard could then you jus dont know anything about boxing!!!!!!! theres a reason why SRR is the best ever. Thats because he was the best welterweight and probably also the best middleweight ever. Hopkins lost JT who would get crushed by hagler dont 4get monzon although benvenuti was great no where near who Robinson fought. he fought more champs than any1. So again think about it who wins hopkins over SRR wow you dont anything about boxing.Yes he lost his belt a few times but dont 4get he usually fought opponents who were muych bigger than him and knocked a lot of them out. Lets get serious here
Not that it matters but technically B-Hop had his first fight at cruiserweight (177lbs I think. 2lbs over the lt. heavy limit)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bx730NY
YOur full of S***. No way can Robinson handle Roy JOnes Jr.. Roy is faster, albeit by a sliver, he is way too big, and strong for Robinson. By the time RObinson was big enough to fight at LHW he was an old man and Roy would have beaten that version of Ray pretty easily. Also how is Lamotta one of the best ever? Who did he beat besides RObinson? He finished 83-19(only 30 by ko which means he didn't have that much power). Zivic was the only "big" name besides Robinson he beat. I think heart and him weighing, at the weigh-in, 16 pounds more than RObinson was the reason he won the fight. Also he was the first middleweight Robinson faced, and he was as tough as nails. But could have he handled the guys his own size like Hopkins, Hagler, Monzon, etc.? No way. Also about Greb, whos actually seen him fight? I doubt most of you have. And he didn't fight at middleweight. IF you go on boxrec whenever it shows his weight it was almost always over 160.
Taeth you make me sick. "BIG NAMES" YOUR NUTS. First of all Marcel Cerdan was a GREAT CHAMPION, BOB MURPHY HAD GREAT POWER,TONY JANIRO WAS 80-15 LAMOTTA BEAT THEM ALL. He would have Lost to hopkins and hagler but would have given monzon trouble see 30 kos in 80 wins is deceiving because he wasnt a Knockout puncher he was a slugger he wore you down similiar to juan diaz does today.Still a top 15 middleweight of all time possibly top ten.you think roy jones would beat sugar ray robinson we arent talking past there prime hear sugar was and Roy is now. See If sugar weighs 160 and roy is 175 he still outpoints him hes the best ever man. Roy jones wouldnt even beat Archie moore or any of the other great light heavys in my eyes he is vastly overrated. Yes he was 157 when he fought maxim and almost won. if he didnt pass out he cruises to a decision and dont forget we only fight 12 rounds now. Little things you arent taking into account that makes me realize you arent thinking b4 you write this. Maxim beat floyd Patterson and Jersey joe walcott true heavyweight robinson stood toe to ttoe with a man who was nearly 20 pounds heavier than he was. YOUR ON CRACK HARRY GREB WAS GREAT MY GREAT GRANDFATHER WATCHED HIM LIVE I DIDNT NEED TO SEE HIM FIGHT (259-21) OH I BET THAT SUX TO RIGHT ROT JONES WOULD PROBABLY KNOCK HIM OUT RIGHT GET OUT OF HERE.YES HE WAS TRULY A SUPERMIDDLEWEIGHT JUST LIKE YOUR BOYFRIEND ROY JONES JR. WHO HE WOULD DISMANTLE AT 168 BUT NOT AT LIGHTHEAVY PROBABLY. IN MODERN DAYS HE WOULD PROBABLY CUT TO MIDDLE DUE TO DIFFERENT WEIGHT CLASSES BUT YOU PROBABLY DONT KNOW THAT EITHER CUS EVERYTHING ELSE YOU'VE SAID DOSENT MAKE SENSE SO THERE YA GO.
Ketchal would have KO'd Jones and then fight another 25 guys before lunch (pork and beans) ;)
hopkins is---20 title defenses, lost his first fight as a light heavy, and didnt loose again till he fought roy jones. hopkins did loose 2 taylor 2x--however the first fight should have been a draw. hes a smart fighter,has a chin. hell find out your weakness, expose u, then execute. the only way 2 beat hopkins is 2 have no flaws yourself.
Of the three, I've got to go with the Marvelous One. Monzon would fall in second and Hopkins third. Hopkins loses some ground after losing twice to Taylor to end his reign at Middleweight, though he does deserve props for beating Tarver that is another division all together.
Looking at career accomplishment at middleweight, you've gotta have Monzon, Hagler and Hopkins at the front, then you have guys that were better (SRL, SRR, Hearns, Duran) who just passed thru the division.
But if you want to know who the most unstoppable MW was prime for prime, look no further than the G-Man.
i think hopkins desercves to be considred cuz his loss to jones doesnt really matter cuz jones didnt stay at middleweight, jones mayb greater in overall legacy but not in middleweight, hopkins is up there it between him and hagler
My opionion
1. Harry Greb
2. Brenard Hopkins
3. Marvin Hagler
It would have been breakfast he was eating, as no doubt he would have been sleeping with Jones' wife ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by taansend
You're just looking at numbers,you have to dissect the numbers.20 defences but was anyone as good as Hearns? Duran? Also, JT has LOTS of flaws but he beat B Hop. B Hop is a legend but I don't think he is the greatest MW ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by undefeated
For me it's as follows:
Greb
Robinson
Monzon
Hagler
In my opinion Hopkins beats both Hearns and Duran.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gamo