I didnt mean to generalise to that extent. Of course, Im glad you are here and enjoy your posts, JT...Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
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I didnt mean to generalise to that extent. Of course, Im glad you are here and enjoy your posts, JT...Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
Of course, I dont think that beating Lacy makes Calzaghe as great as Toney. What I do believe is that if these 2 fighters met at 168 pounds the fight would be a pick 'em and about who could turn it on the most on the day...Quote:
Originally Posted by shza
I am not stating that Calzaghe is greater than Toney. Not by a long shot. I love both fighters, but think its a fight that could have gone either way.
Im not saying Calzaghe is greater than Toney. And im not saying beating Lacy is anyway near enough to make him that. All I have argued is that if these 2 favourite fighters of mine met at 168 I do think it could have gone either way...Quote:
Originally Posted by shza
A very nice response :coolclick:Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahn
Thats the posting I like!!
I will give my own thoughts later when I have more time...Im always a man of my word!! ;)
Bottom line is Joe is,nt great he's good yes i admit that but great never he's left it to long to be great he has'nt really fought anybody in his 19 defences a James Toney or Roy Jones would have destroyed him a win over Jeff "im gunna plod towards you while you hit me" Lacy does'nt make him great it does'nt even put him in the same league as Toney or Jones.Its about time everybody woke up and realised Joe ain't that good if he was Warren would let him loose he was gunna fight the winner of Johnson vs Woods but did he no course he did'nt because it would'nt be easy so he fights Manfredo.Out of fourty odd fights he has had one fight that everyone mentions the Lacy fight apart from Lacy their is only another 5 good names on his record so why does everyone think he is so good what do we have to go on because all the other 13 guys he defended against would make anybody look great.
Joe Calzaghe could be great, but no-one can say for sure one way or the other because he hasn't had the fights to back up these claims. For me he has the potential to be one of the greatest, but is let down by his inability to secure big fights. Someone mentioned earlier that US fighters seem to get the bigger fights mopre easily, but is this to do with it being the US or with the fact that Frank Warren is controlling fighters like Calzaghe? Lewis never had any trouble getting big fights, and Naz looked to be on his way up (until Barrera) and they were both british (please no comments about the Canadian thing). As for Calzaghe, only time will tell, but it's time that's running out fast for the welshman, and all this talk of fighting Berrio next has me worried that he will never get in the ring with a decent, well-respected tested name that is in their 'prime'. That is the only way that he can shut people up, assuming that he wins of course...
On another small note, why on earth are Winky and Hopkins jumping stright over the SMW division? Is this some sort of slight on Calzaghe or simply the fact that they want nothing to do with the man because of his 'hidden potential'?
Listen shithead ! when you put down your computer games get your head out of your ass you will realise the difference between somebody who has the desire and skill to make 20 defences at the same weight against good fighters and somebody who was a fleeting talent on the supermiddle Radar 10 years ago .Quote:
Originally Posted by althetruthhindley
Toney is a fat lazy disgrace its people like you that buy into trash talking and back somebody just because they appear to back themselves !!
Not so !!
Toney failed miserably when he had to step up to the plate for his superfight against Jones and was humiliated !!
That told you all you need to know about Toney at Supermiddle he struggled with other fighters too Prince Charles Williams being one that sticks in the mind untill to his credit he pulled it out .
Dont go on like toney was some great fighter denied his shot at greatest he had his shot(s) and he blew it he didn't have the focus whereas Joe has kept that at supermiddle for 10 years BARELY losing a round !!
BTW im aware that Jones was much better than Lacy but Joe still put on a clinic whereas Toney stumbled into the Ring a fat bloated disgrace !!
Thats what the initial question was Joe and Toney at SUPERMIDDLEWIEGHT!
Toney lost plenty of rounds and was often behind on the cards before late turnarounds .
Toney also didnt like educated pressure and would often go to sleep in fights because of his poor stamina ( his words )
In yr post you say something to the effect ' Toney proves if you lose you just get back in the ring ''
So a rough translation is you lose 3 in a row to alsoran fighters spend 5 years in the wilderness and then comeback a bloated Cruiserweight .
really ?? against who ??Quote:
Originally Posted by Swashbuckling Gordy
hehe this is getting heated lol
Toney never ducked anyone and wasnt afraid of losses on his record.
Can we say the same for Calzaghe ??????
i think not !!!!!!!
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Originally Posted by Preme
It is always the same lame excuse "they priced them selves out"LAME LAME >:mad >:mad
YEA WHEN U MAKE MILLIONS THERE COMES A TIME WHEN U SHOULD BE MORE INTERESTED IN YOUR LEGACY THAN MONEY , IF U WANNA BE GREAT THEN FIGHT THE BESTQuote:
Originally Posted by jangeorg
Right here goes. It must first off be understood that in talking about about Calzaghe and Toney, we are indeed talking about 2 of my favorite fighters. Toney has undoubtably achieved more. Considerably more. Toney has beaten many top tier fighters, and likewise come unstuck against a few others. Calzaghe's level of opposition has not been on that with Toney. I never have at any point ever stated this. So I think my response to your post has become a little twisted by some other posters as a response to the starting argument of this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahn
Calzaghe to his credit has defended his title with effortless ease over a long time. Having won his belt he has beaten a number of ex champions and also manged to unify against Lacy. He has beaten decent fighters. And IMO only Reid has come close to getting anywhere near a win over Calzaghe. Calzaghe wins rounds and fights with relative ease. Nobody has been able to take him to the limits. Nobody has been good enough.
We could argue that Calzaghe never fights the "big" fights. Who should he have fought? Hopkins for one. But didnt Hopkins get deep into negotiations but then price himself out at the last moment? Hopkins has continued his career by bypassing SMW altogether. Jones himself has mentioned Calzaghe on occasion too. We all know Jones and Hopkins have big egos and it cannot be easy to negotiate with them. Everyone would have loved a second Jones: Hopkins fight. Of course, it wasnt to be. Making those big fights is never easy. It hasnt all been the fault of the opposition though. Glenn Johnson always brings out the hand injuries in Calzaghe. And Joe's reluctance to travel is of course another issue. If you want the fights then get out of the safety zone and make it then!!! I want him to fight Kessler more than anyone. Its not easy being a Calzaghe fan!
My point in this thread was not to point out Joe's greatness but to merely say that I think a Toney: Calzaghe fight at SMW is a pick em between 2 extremely talented fighters. Toney was a great but he himself fought light opponents sometimes and failed to show up. Vinson Durham, anybody? Or else Larry Prather? These guys were bums and managed to go the distance with Toney. Toney frequently failed to show up because of a lack of conditioning. There is no denying how skilled the guy was, but he had faults. In fact it pains me to dig at Toney because I love the guy, but thats how it really is. Calzaghe is a very skilled boxer but not enough opponents on the resume. I know this. Toney has plenty of names and did get shown up on the odd occasion. It just comes down to where your instincts go in a fight like this.
It remains a pick 'em for me....
:goodpost: :coolclick:Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
Who did Toney beat at supermiddle that was better than Calzaghe?
Thanks, Ice Cold. You will get a click back in the next hour or so when Karma relents ;)
At super middleweight...nobody! :-\Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
not arguing with you, but what more could of calzaghe done? kessler aside coz i think time will tell on this one.. but befrore that what more could he have done? he signed a contract nd was ready to go to the us to fight hopkins, he went to denmark on a tyson undercrad to build his name up in the states... Regardless of how 'overrated' lacy was now, he was 'the best' at the time and got spanked for 12 rounds...Quote:
Originally Posted by boozeboxer
Your right, when the manfredo fight was anounced joe should of said then what a joke it was and how it should not be happening, i mean if that didn't get the fans excited about the fight id on't know what would!Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahn
there is no question about who has the greater record, Toney does by a mile there is no question about that! the question was about who wins if they fought. Marciano had one of the worest records and faced some of the worest oposition that any undisputed champion, yet you hardly ever see a heavyweight great list without him on it.
Just stating my opinion, and last time i checked i was free to post my opinion on these open forums, doesn't say jack in the rules that if daxx is debating a topic that then only one person at a time can say something - unsluting? was u not long ago who started this shit when coming out with a comment that you had forgotten more about boxing than i know.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahn
Funny thing is you talk about me jumping on a bandwaggon and not making an original post, yet your the one who posts the same crap about calzaghes record, or him not fighting out of the UK every chance you get, and when the debate is about calzaghe facing toney - when asked why toney wins you change it and talk about toneys record.
Thats My whole point !Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
Toney is a talent but he is not what he could have been by a long long chalk .
I just can't understand how bypass a division and then get soft fights at heavy and be called a great .
Toney did nothing at Lightheavy , very little at Supermiddle, and after 5 years fighting in boxing backwaters won a cruiser title !
That does not for a minute in my mind make him an ATG.
I was not a fan of Lennox Lewis but he was an all time great he beat the best time and time again and stayed champ despite massive obstacles .
Toney is not worthy of such high esteem .
Good yes great no .
I have always been a fan of toney for being so old school, fighting the best he could when he could. i don't know if he should be called an all time great tho, to be one, surly one should have to completely dominate a devision, mix it with one or two ATG's and keep it close, or win? something i don't think toney ever did. People talk about off nights, toney had many of them, losses an ATG wouldn't of had on their record, controversial and split decisions too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swashbuckling Gordy
I like your intents, but I do disagree. Toney is a modern great!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Swashbuckling Gordy
When Joe Calzaghe retires we will look back at his career and say AND
Quote:
Originally Posted by tysonbruno
Best thing to happen is if Calzaghe retired now, the SMW division wouldn't be held hostage by a man claiming to be the champ but refusing to prove it by fighting the best opponents. The worst thing that could ever happen to the division was when Calzaghe got the Ring belt by fighting no. 3, something that wouldn't have happened if no. 3 hadn't been an American. And now Calzaghe and his fanboys can use the ring belt to claim that he is the best, even though he didn't beat no. 2 to win it
Iran Barkley. The names of the people's he fought would make Calzaghe piss his pants. Barkley has fought and beat some of the greatest names in boxing. Calzaghe won't even face, much less beat some of boxing decent names. Toney tortured Barkley, who was much better than the overrated Lacy. Hell I would pick pick Toney victims Charles Williams and Tim Littles over Calzaghe. Calzaghe reminds me of a fighter Iran Barkley beat. Darrin Van Horn. Only not quite as good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Yeh I could imagin Charles Williams or Darrin Van Horn bein the longest reighning champ in the sport.
Even if you don't really rate his oppositions do you really think somebody that bad could be champ for 10 years?
P.S Barkley - gimme a break - his whole career is built off getting lucky against Hearns, he was a good fighter at best
What I will say about JC is that I have lost a lot of respect fror him for not following up on the Lacy victory, but speaking as someone who has followed him since the amteur days (and trust me he was an awesome amateur with one of the best records I have ever heard of) he is so much better than you realise - shame is most people will never see it or believe it coz he has taken a sh1t path and not stepped up to the plate
We talking about the same Iran Barkley that Nigel Benn clattered in a round?
VD Even James Toney didnt rate Barkley ;D
Nah, I think he meant the Iran Barkley that was Koed by Robbie Simms, beaten by grandad Duran, stopped by Make, and lost about half his fights :-\Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis
Calzaghe's legacy really depends on who he fights after Manfredo. If he demolishes Manfredo on US television then a few things will be in place:
1. He will be well known to all casual boxing fans in the United States.
2. This marketability will give him leverage to negotiate any fight
If, after a victory over Manfredo, Calzaghe manages to have missed a superfight by September, then I will truely believe that he was overated and protected. If on the other hand he is lined up to fight Hopkins, Taylor or Wright, then I will give him masses of credit. If he then won that fight...................top 20 of all time in my eyes.
CC mateQuote:
Originally Posted by jangeorg
Its hard to judge how good Joe really is coz he just not fought enough p4p best fighters,fighters who are at the top of there game.
He got a lot of douters attention when he beat Lacy much the same way as when Hopkins beat Trinidad (peole forget that Hopkins was not given much of a chance in this fight)but now he has got to build on it by going to the USA and fighting some top names.
I just feel Joe has been to complaced to stay and fight in the UK instead of going after the superfights.
I also think Frank Warren has held his carrer back as well by giving him easy safe fights that nobody cares about.
But ultimtlly Joe is is own man and he should have demanded the big fights much like Hatton had to do.
So as far as I am conserned the final chapter of the Joe Calzaghe book has not been writen yet.
Has Joe fought any p4p fighters at allQuote:
Originally Posted by porkypara
Good point.CCQuote:
Originally Posted by tysonbruno
CC back mateQuote:
Originally Posted by porkypara
Slowly read these names out loud to yourself. Seriously. Will McIntyre, Rick Thornberry, Juan Carlos Ferreyra, Evans Ashira, Kabary Salem, Tocker Pudwill, Mger Mkrtchian, Miguel Jimenez, Sakio Bika, Mario Veit (twice). Next up? Peter "I went life and death against Alfonso Gomez" Manfredo. That's how you stay champion for 10 years. That list can't even be called bad. It's is beyond that. It's seriously garbage. Put it this way. If you were to get laser eye surgery in order to stop wearing those binoculars you call glasses. Maybe use some Rogain and covered up that receding hair line and got in the ring. I would put money on you to beat these clowns Calzaghe called opponents. Sick money. No doubt. I would ride you all the way. McIntyre, Pudwill. They got nothing on you. It'll be TKO/KO, under on you every single fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
THIS WAS MY origional point we dont know how good calzaghe is because 9 out of 10 fighters are bums or has beens.
and it doesnt matter if James Toney didnt beat (although thats a matter of opinion !) many at super middle the fact is he moved to light heavy had good fights then cruiser became champ and even at an older age competes with heavies thats great , not afraid to loose and come back Toney is one of the few fighters today that qwhen u look at his record is like a record from yesteryear lots of fights / warm up fights / and top names on his record.
Calzaghe is not in this league END OF STORY ! AND NOW ITS TO LATE AT 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by tysonbruno
CC back mate
Hahahaha ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
calzaghe frustrates hell out of me he has all talent in the world and has wasted his talent fighting bums i really hope he can fight kessler and other big american names but i very much doubt it