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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
I do feel compelled to point out here,Rocky really wasnt known as a bruising puncher.
....you've just outed yourself as an idiot of historic measures!!!
49 wins.....43 knockouts
I mean Jesus Christ dude...that's impressive no matter who you fight and Rocky fought the best out there at the time
Way to learn how to analyse those knockouts
Lets see
Two against Jersey Joe Walcott,his last two fights before he retired
Archie Moore,who had to come up 18 pounds for the fight
Don Cockell,a journeyman with absolutely no punch whatsoever
Harry Mathews,who actually lost to Cockell twice
Gino Buonvino,wow theres a stellar name,retired after the second time Rocky KO'ed him
And of course the 37 year old former champ who was allready taking smack at that point,and it still took him 8 rounds to do it
Well let's compare Rocky to some other fighters.....Nicolay Valuev 46 wins......34 KOs....and we all know Nicolay has fought the worst opponents ever and yet he couldn't KO as many as Rocky. Larry Holmes couldn't either!!!
Joe Frazier can bob all he likes....he never once weaved which is why Foreman done him in like he did.
The bobbing wouldn't affect Joe Louis because Louis knew better than ANYONE his range which is another reason he stayed flatfooted and another reason he was so successful.
Joe Louis was rarely out of position and did not have a suspect chin....he was KO'd TWICE in 72 fights.....where the fuck do you get your dillusional ideas from???
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
I do feel compelled to point out here,Rocky really wasnt known as a bruising puncher.
....you've just outed yourself as an idiot of historic measures!!!
49 wins.....43 knockouts
I mean Jesus Christ dude...that's impressive no matter who you fight and Rocky fought the best out there at the time
Way to learn how to analyse those knockouts
Lets see
Two against Jersey Joe Walcott,his last two fights before he retired
Archie Moore,who had to come up 18 pounds for the fight
Don Cockell,a journeyman with absolutely no punch whatsoever
Harry Mathews,who actually lost to Cockell twice
Gino Buonvino,wow theres a stellar name,retired after the second time Rocky KO'ed him
And of course the 37 year old former champ who was allready taking smack at that point,and it still took him 8 rounds to do it
Well let's compare Rocky to some other fighters.....Nicolay Valuev 46 wins......34 KOs....and we all know Nicolay has fought the worst opponents ever and yet he couldn't KO as many as Rocky. Larry Holmes couldn't either!!!
Joe Frazier can bob all he likes....he never once weaved which is why Foreman done him in like he did.
The bobbing wouldn't affect Joe Louis because Louis knew better than ANYONE his range which is another reason he stayed flatfooted and another reason he was so successful.
Joe Louis was rarely out of position and did not have a suspect chin....he was KO'd TWICE in 72 fights.....where the F*** do you get your dillusional ideas from???
Ummmmm try reality
Louis was allready on smack when the fight happened,Rocky could have just waited for him to nod at that point
Hey Trevor Berbick beat Ali,send him to the boxing HOF
I mean he beat Ali right
Marciano's record is a collection of scrubs and has beens from beginning to end
Its not his fault,the division was weak at the time,but thats the reality of it
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
....Yes which supports the fact that Louis had a good chin....and the fact that Rocky was 1 of 2 people to KO Louis supports the fact that Rocky hit hard.
Go be stupid on your own time.....quit wasting mine
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
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Originally Posted by Lyle
....Yes which supports the fact that Louis had a good chin....and the fact that Rocky was 1 of 2 people to KO Louis supports the fact that Rocky hit hard.
Go be stupid on your own time.....quit wasting mine
Yeah another one was Heroin,he was allready on it
He was well past his prime,he was old and he was tired,and he was addicted
Hey I have my fave fighters too
And I accept the reality of what they did or didnt do.
B-hop,love the guy,Ill be the first to admit that for the majority of his middle weight reign,there was no great defining moment for him.
About the first one was when Atwun Echols hip tossed him and separated his shoulder
It is what it is
Be insulting on your own time,Ill stay here with the reality of what the reality is.
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Joe Louis didn't do heroin he did cocaine....get your facts straight!!!!
And if you're putting Joe the crack head in vs a Prime Joe Frazier then YES Louis would lose but that ain't what we're doing here is it???
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
1950's
In 1950, burdened by I.R.S. debt, he announced a comeback and was promptly given a chance to recover his title, but he lost a 15 round unanimous decision to world champion Ezzard Charles, who had won the title after Louis left it vacant. He kept boxing, and in his next fight he beat fringe contender Cesar Brion by a decision in 10. Seven more wins followed, including a rematch with Brion and a decision over fellow hall of famer Jimmy Bivins. In 1951, however, he would box what would be his final fight: In front of a national television audience, Louis lost by a knockout in eight rounds to the future world Heavyweight Champion, Rocky Marciano. Louis did not embarrass himself that night, but it was obvious his best years had gone by. He retired with a record of 68 wins and 3 losses, with 54 wins by a knockout.
Louis became a professional wrestler in 1956 but quit in 1957 due to injuries suffered during a match.
Louis faced a drug problem, a fact not too many people knew about but which was made public by a boxing book published by Ring Magazine, just as in Sugar Ray Robinson's case. But later on in life, he was able to kick his drug habit.
http://www.fameboxing.com/joe-louis.htm
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
...but you said he did heroin.....when in actuality he did cocaine
Your above statement suggest nothing AGAINST my statement
Joe Louis was one of the harder punching heavyweights in the history of the sport too....as was Marciano, I mean a 185 pounder KO-ing 190-200 pound fighters.
I know Joe Frazier is a great fighter, I just think it wouldn't be easy for him to beat Louis and Marciano....you seem to suggest that Marciano and Louis are frauds and they weren't as good as their records suggest.....and that I think is ridiculous
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
...but you said he did heroin.....when in actuality he did cocaine
Your above statement suggest nothing AGAINST my statement
Joe Louis was one of the harder punching heavyweights in the history of the sport too....as was Marciano, I mean a 185 pounder KO-ing 190-200 pound fighters.
I know Joe Frazier is a great fighter, I just think it wouldn't be easy for him to beat Louis and Marciano....you seem to suggest that Marciano and Louis are frauds and they weren't as good as their records suggest.....and that I think is ridiculous
No,coke was later
At no point did I ever say that either fighters werent great.
I wish that Louis hadnt been forced to come back,so his record wouldnt be tainted.The Louis that came back,was clearly not the Brown Bomber.
I wish Marciano had actually fought in an era were he had serious competion,so we'd have a real gage of how good he was,same with Tyson.
Acknowledging the reality of the situation,is not the same as dissing the fighter
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by oakleyno1
only ever lost to foreman and ali, and i think only ever knocked down by foreman?
how would joe of done vs other greats
holmes
liston
rocky m
lewis
tyson
dempsy
louis
his record may not be that impressive ( 32-4) i think
but still i think he does deserve to be in peoples top ten heavys of all time
opinons?
Holmes out points Frazier with that famous jab.
Liston vs Frazier would be slugfest but Frazier extra heart and will would be factor stopping Liston in 10.
Rocky is stopped on cuts Frazier's bobbing and weaving style too much for Rocky.
Lewis should outpoint Frazier unless Frazier gets lucky punch would very well could happen.
Tyson would floor Frazier in early going but once he warms up he takes Tyson's punches and outguts Tyson to stop him in 9th or 10th.
Dempsey too small for Fraizer and Fraizer's bobbing and weaving style too much and he stops Dempsey on his feet in 10th.
Louis's chin wasn't that great and he is too flatfooted which wouldn't be good vs someone like Frazier i think Frazier could ko him in middle rounds.
I like this list and results alot...I'd lend towards Joe beating Lewis if it was a 15 rounder, but not a 12 rounder. I think his constant pressure and blistering body shots would take its toll and end in a UD 8 rounds to 7 or a 14/15 round TKO.
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Joe Louis didn't do heroin he did cocaine....get your facts straight!!!!
And if you're putting Joe the crack head in vs a Prime Joe Frazier then YES Louis would lose but that ain't what we're doing here is it???
No he did cocaine in the late 60's,wich of course youve allready stated definitivly e didnt,even though he did.
As far as what we're doing here,were compairing fighters from different era's that would have competed at light heavyweight,or cruiserweight today
If one style and one era is easily comparable,go out and fight like Jack Johnson,let us all know how it goes
This is why these comparisons get stupid
You cant compare Frazier to Tyson or to Louis
They fought different opponents,in different eras
But to get insulting because some one doesnt bow to the altar of your fighter,is equally stupid
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
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Originally Posted by The_One77
joe got wobbled by fighters like manuel ramos and jerry quarry...Imo these fighters couldn't touch Tyson in his prime. Sorry but Tyson is bigger, stronger, faster and imo has the better chin.
Tyson would knock him out hands down
When was Joe ever wobbled by Quarry ?? i watched both fights and he was never wobbled he got caught with few good punches but never wobbled and i don't know about chin department i would say Frazier has just as good as chin as Tyson and he certainly has more heart.
sorry, mean Oscar Natalio....not Quarry
Frazier never took on heavy punchers except Foreman and he got knocked down 7 odd times in 2 rounds, Tyson was very resilient...it would take a long time to knock Tyson out because he took a punch well, it was the overral accumulation of punishment that eventually Ko'd him.
Sure he didn't have Frazier's balls for a hard fight but it wouldn't matter if they fought, Tyson would knock him out early.
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Frazier was his best at 205, but his bodyfat percentage was still higher than Tyson's...
Tyson was 20-25 lbs heavier but came in ripped, the guy was a genetic beast when it came to muscle mass..
When Frazier came in 215 he was a fatty (no disrespect intended, just fact).....if he maintained a proper diet and good weightlifting program he could of hanged with Tyson in that department.
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_One77
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_One77
joe got wobbled by fighters like manuel ramos and jerry quarry...Imo these fighters couldn't touch Tyson in his prime. Sorry but Tyson is bigger, stronger, faster and imo has the better chin.
Tyson would knock him out hands down
When was Joe ever wobbled by Quarry ?? i watched both fights and he was never wobbled he got caught with few good punches but never wobbled and i don't know about chin department i would say Frazier has just as good as chin as Tyson and he certainly has more heart.
sorry, mean Oscar Natalio....not Quarry
Frazier never took on heavy punchers except Foreman and he got knocked down 7 odd times in 2 rounds, Tyson was very resilient...it would take a long time to knock Tyson out because he took a punch well, it was the overral accumulation of punishment that eventually Ko'd him.
Sure he didn't have Frazier's balls for a hard fight but it wouldn't matter if they fought, Tyson would knock him out early.
Yes i see who you mean now Oscar Bonavena but that was very early in his career when he was inexperienced and Oscar was much more experienced Tyson never did have Heart he had decent chin but he had no heart and if Frazier could last early rounds which im 50-50 on he could beat Tyson with his massive heart like Holyfield did and stop him late on.
Just let you know im not Tyson hater i think he was good fighter but he lacked few things that boxer needs and thats heart and his head he had bad mental problems which you won't last long with those sort of problems.
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
No he did cocaine in the late 60's,wich of course youve allready stated definitivly e didnt,even though he did.
As far as what we're doing here,were compairing fighters from different era's that would have competed at light heavyweight,or cruiserweight today
If one style and one era is easily comparable,go out and fight like Jack Johnson,let us all know how it goes
This is why these comparisons get stupid
You cant compare Frazier to Tyson or to Louis
They fought different opponents,in different eras
But to get insulting because some one doesnt bow to the altar of your fighter,is equally stupid
But I ask for FACTS about Joe Louis' SUPPOSED "weak chin" and Rocky Marciano's SUPPOSED "lack of power"....you have brought nothing to those arguments which, YOU CREATED!
And you still haven't provided me evidence that Joe Louis was a heroin addict either....which I HIGHLY doubt he was...I don't know of ANY boxer who abused heroin it makes you slow and dosile and weak.....cocaine has been abused by any boxer who had a drug problem: Whittaker, Leonard, Tyson, Bruno, Cobb, Witherspoon, Tate.....the list goes on and on.
Opinions are just fine and dandy but you can't fuck with facts bro
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by oakleyno1
only ever lost to foreman and ali, and i think only ever knocked down by foreman and bonavena?
how would joe of done vs other greats
holmes
liston
rocky m
lewis
tyson
dempsy
louis
his record may not be that impressive ( 32-4) i think
but still i think he does deserve to be in peoples top ten heavys of all time
opinons?
-the frazier that beat ali(prime)--could beat holmes--he would wear holmes down and late ko---ali is better than holmes--so if he could beat ali then he can beat holmes
-tough one i say liston --late stoppage
these 2 are like machines -it would b a war w/rocky --could go either way--rockys right vs fraziers left
-frazier would easily dismantle lewis
-tyson would ko frazier in 8
-frazier would take what dempesy could dish out then ko dempsy in 13
would b 2 much for louis--ko louis in 12
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
No he did cocaine in the late 60's,wich of course youve allready stated definitivly e didnt,even though he did.
As far as what we're doing here,were compairing fighters from different era's that would have competed at light heavyweight,or cruiserweight today
If one style and one era is easily comparable,go out and fight like Jack Johnson,let us all know how it goes
This is why these comparisons get stupid
You cant compare Frazier to Tyson or to Louis
They fought different opponents,in different eras
But to get insulting because some one doesnt bow to the altar of your fighter,is equally stupid
But I ask for FACTS about Joe Louis' SUPPOSED "weak chin" and Rocky Marciano's SUPPOSED "lack of power"....you have brought nothing to those arguments which, YOU CREATED!
And you still haven't provided me evidence that Joe Louis was a heroin addict either....which I HIGHLY doubt he was...I don't know of ANY boxer who abused heroin it makes you slow and dosile and weak.....cocaine has been abused by any boxer who had a drug problem: Whittaker, Leonard, Tyson, Bruno, Cobb, Witherspoon, Tate.....the list goes on and on.
Opinions are just fine and dandy but you can't F*** with facts bro
Tony Ayala bragged that he used to take smack right before fights he WON
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by undefeated
Quote:
Originally Posted by oakleyno1
only ever lost to foreman and ali, and i think only ever knocked down by foreman and bonavena?
how would joe of done vs other greats
holmes
liston
rocky m
lewis
tyson
dempsy
louis
his record may not be that impressive ( 32-4) i think
but still i think he does deserve to be in peoples top ten heavys of all time
opinons?
-the frazier that beat ali(prime)--could beat holmes--he would wear holmes down and late ko---ali is better than holmes--so if he could beat ali then he can beat holmes
-tough one i say liston --late stoppage
these 2 are like machines -it would b a war w/rocky --could go either way--rockys right vs fraziers left
-frazier would easily dismantle lewis
-tyson would ko frazier in 8
-frazier would take what dempesy could dish out then ko dempsy in 13
would b 2 much for louis--ko louis in 12
I disagree with Frazier vs Holmes Ali fought Frazier different by mostly staying on ropes and Holmes don't fight like that and did you see 2nd fight how he quite comfortably outpointed Joe by sticking and moving ?? thats how Holmes would win.
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Yep,that Jab was tailor made for a shorter fighter like Frazier
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Holmes couldn't take the pressure or the power for a full 15....Holmes had more power than Ali but he wasn't as good or as fast.
Wow AYALA....there's ONE example....you still haven't sold me on Louis using it
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by undefeated
Quote:
Originally Posted by oakleyno1
only ever lost to foreman and ali, and i think only ever knocked down by foreman and bonavena?
how would joe of done vs other greats
holmes
liston
rocky m
lewis
tyson
dempsy
louis
his record may not be that impressive ( 32-4) i think
but still i think he does deserve to be in peoples top ten heavys of all time
opinons?
-the frazier that beat ali(prime)--could beat holmes--he would wear holmes down and late ko---ali is better than holmes--so if he could beat ali then he can beat holmes
-tough one i say liston --late stoppage
these 2 are like machines -it would b a war w/rocky --could go either way--rockys right vs fraziers left
-frazier would easily dismantle lewis
-tyson would ko frazier in 8
-frazier would take what dempesy could dish out then ko dempsy in 13
would b 2 much for louis--ko louis in 12
I disagree with Frazier vs Holmes Ali fought Frazier different by mostly staying on ropes and Holmes don't fight like that and did you
see 2nd fight how he quite comfortably outpointed Joe by sticking and moving ?? thats how Holmes would win.
that is true --however frazier was no longer at his prime during ali-frazier 2---that frazier was just not the same --he lost his knack. the frazier during the first bout was a champion in his prime--frazier during the second bout was a contender past his prime. the frazier that beat ali the first time would wear holmes down then ko his ass by late stoppage. ali was an overall better fighter than holmes--so 1971 frazier would give holmes a whupping -but a 1974 frazier would get a whupping
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Ali never had it easy with Frazier...not in 1, 2, or 3!!! All of those fights Joe took Ali to the MAX!!!!
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Holmes couldn't take the pressure or the power for a full 15....Holmes had more power than Ali but he wasn't as good or as fast.
Wow AYALA....there's ONE example....you still haven't sold me on Louis using it
Heres another
Liston
Dude it was another era
Louis should have never come back,he did it for money,mainly to feed the feds and drugs
Nobody knew how bad those drugs were at the time
Let alone champs who are getting it for free,just for the champ
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Holmes couldn't take the pressure or the power for a full 15....[/b]
Holmes had more power than Ali but he wasn't as good or as fast.
Wow AYALA....there's ONE example....you still haven't sold me on Louis using it
Ken Norton vs Larry Holmes ?? oh jeez made right mess of quoting haha but anyway what im trying to say is you were saying Holmes can't take pressure or power for 15 rounds but Ken Norton done it to Holmes so thats wrong imo.
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Ken didn't hit as hard as Joe and Norton wasn't as good of a boxer either. Joe fought from bell to bell!
Frazier lost 4 times....2 to Ali, 2 to Foreman
Norton got thumped by every power puncher he ever fought....he did well vs Ali and Holmes
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Ken didn't hit as hard as Joe and Norton wasn't as good of a boxer either. Joe fought from bell to bell!
Frazier lost 4 times....2 to Ali, 2 to Foreman
Norton got thumped by every power puncher he ever fought....he did well vs Ali and Holmes
Norton does hit quite hard though he had good power imo and he pressures you all time like he did vs Ali and like he did vs Holmes and like i said Ali fought on ropes alot against Frazier except for 2nd fight when he beat Frazier quite comfortably by sticking and moving and Holmes would do same as well except Holmes jab was harder than Ali's and Frazier's face would look mess with all them hard stiff jabs he would be taking from Holmes.
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Holmes' chin wasn't as good as Ali's....and his mobility wasn't as good either. Holmes had stiffer punches but he couldn't throw them as fast as Ali did.
I just think Frazier would work Holmes over
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Holmes' chin wasn't as good as Ali's....and his mobility wasn't as good either. Holmes had stiffer punches but he couldn't throw them as fast as Ali did.
I just think Frazier would work Holmes over
Holmes chin was bloody good though mate how hell he got up from that shavers knockdown i'll never know ok lets settle this now then 12 rounds Holmes wins decision 15 rounds Frazier wins by tko agreed ??
