Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence

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Originally Posted by sleeplessrevolution

in my opinion, reflexes aside i think the 2nd best defense is still the "boxer stance" because it is more likely for a boxer to be hittable when his arms are put down than say a style like winky where his arms are always up and ready for a cover.

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A good fighter will drop his arms to invite an attack that they'll counter, that's one way sucker a guy to throw a punch. Look at Archie Moore who's one of the earlier fighters to adopt a defense like Winky's. Moore had his hands up for most of the fight, but when he was trying to set them up he'd drop a hand or two.

I agree with Olympian, for the most part defense is making your opponent miss which weaves into setting your own attacks up.

In regards to a good defensive fighter worth mentioning is "the untouchable" Nocolino Locche. He reminded me of Willy Pep in a few respects, you couldn't land a jab on him with a machine gun, he could shoulder-roll, sucker a guy to throw a punch and turn the tables on them like the fighters before him.

Funny to think that all these moves, even the sharp perception of defense was almost universal in the 40's and 50's. Now it's seldom that you'll see a complete defensive package, but a few names these days bring back that old magic.

I simply don't believe Willie Pep was the best defensive fighter if you tie in reflexes. I've seen a few fights where he isn't quite top level in terms of speed, and his style is too open, and Saddler beat the shit out of him a few times because of that.

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

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Originally Posted by Taeth

I think Pep was just lucky there wasn't any really quick fighters in his era for him to face because like Pernell Whitaker or Roy Jones Jr. their styles are so daring and open that somebody with even close to the same speed would give them hell. Even look at Montell Griffin who used an awkward style to keep Roy off balance.

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I don't think there's much in common between Roy and Pernell.
Roy held his hands low, didn't really jab, he was extremely unorthodox.
Pernell was a textbook technical fighter. He could do flashy stuff too and showboat, but he was much more textbook than Roy.

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Roy Jabbed enough. And Pernell is as far from a technical fighter as Graziano. He did throw good punches, but his defense style where he would go low and he would usually have his hands at his chest where Roy often had his. Anyways Pernell's defensive style was as far from orthodox as they came, and I doubt a handful of fighters could have foughten with his style.

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I'm sure that most fighters couldn't have fought using Pernell's style.
My point was that Pernell's style didn't have much in common with Jones'.

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All I said was both their styles have their hands down, and they are daring thats it. THey don't move around the ring like Leonard but stand in front of the opponent and use their reflexes to dodge and counter opponents. At points like Roy vs. Toney or Pernell vs. Chavez they have run, but not really. Mayweather could also be put in this category, but like I said he blocks more shots with his arms than either of them.

ok I see what you mean.

It's not really daring, at least that's not the point, it's called "drawing". Let me briefly explain: say you want you want your opponent to throw something that you're looking to counter, you can either feint, or open your defense up so you can predict what they're going to throw. Now this isn't tp say that it works all the time, but it indespespensible, especially when alota guys are content on out-fighting (staying on the outside) and playing it safe. It really works well in countering, all fighters do it some extent, even Raf Marquez and alota good defensive fighters including Hopkins and others.

I never said he was the best, and I don't think Willy Pep think greatest defensive fighter ever, but he could do plenty of things defense as well as offense that the fighters now a day don't. Saddler was also a helluva fighter, he was pretty dirty in his fights with Pep, but he licked him none the less. Check out Benny Leonard, there's a clip on youtube just type in his name. Anyways Leonard could do things that encompass alot of defensive moves. He could switch his stance (drop-shift) which protects an angle, gets set, and avoids their lead. He could do all the things that I've mentioned drawing, feinting, crowding them to the point that he'd bet that his opponent's wouldn't mess a hair on his head. He had a nose like a sun-dial but after 200+ fights it didn't have a mark on it. How's that for defense? ;)

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Originally Posted by Chris N.

ok I see what you mean.

It's not really daring, at least that's not the point, it's called "drawing". Let me briefly explain: say you want you want your opponent to throw something that you're looking to counter, you can either feint, or open your defense up so you can predict what they're going to throw. Now this isn't tp say that it works all the time, but it indespespensible, especially when alota guys are content on out-fighting (staying on the outside) and playing it safe. It really works well in countering, all fighters do it some extent, even Raf Marquez and alota good defensive fighters including Hopkins and others.

I never said he was the best, and I don't think Willy Pep think greatest defensive fighter ever, but he could do plenty of things defense as well as offense that the fighters now a day don't. Saddler was also a helluva fighter, he was pretty dirty in his fights with Pep, but he licked him none the less. Check out Benny Leonard, there's a clip on youtube just type in his name. Anyways Leonard could do things that encompass alot of defensive moves. He could switch his stance (drop-shift) which protects an angle, gets set, and avoids their lead. He could do all the things that I've mentioned drawing, feinting, crowding them to the point that he'd bet that his opponent's wouldn't mess a hair on his head. He had a nose like a sun-dial but after 200+ fights it didn't have a mark on it. How's that for defense? ;)

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I understand drawing in opponents I'm a boxer, but what I am saying is if an average guy tries to do that they get hit everytime.

Not necessarily, look at Eddy Futch's fighters, or some of Freddy Roach's. Not all of them are great at it but average fighter can do it too. Hell, even Freddy Roach wasn't a world beater but he learned those moves too. Look at the shoulder-roll counter that Futch taught most of his fighters. One of them was dropping a left lead to draw right hand counter, the punch can be parried or blocked with the left shoulder, and a right hand, or flicker jab can be thrown in retaliation.

The average guy will get hit the first few times as you may have faced, but naturally as you know there's timing in landing a punch, there's timing in defense as well. Unless you've fine-tuned it down to the feeling and reflex of it, I'll agree that learning boxer is going to be pretty reserved about it. Even James Toney was a big gym rat when he was learning these moves, if you want to get it down you have to work it into your sparring/bag-work and especially your sparring sessions.

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Originally Posted by Chris N.

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Originally Posted by sleeplessrevolution

in my opinion, reflexes aside i think the 2nd best defense is still the "boxer stance" because it is more likely for a boxer to be hittable when his arms are put down than say a style like winky where his arms are always up and ready for a cover.

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A good fighter will drop his arms to invite an attack that they'll counter, that's one way sucker a guy to throw a punch. Look at Archie Moore who's one of the earlier fighters to adopt a defense like Winky's. Moore had his hands up for most of the fight, but when he was trying to set them up he'd drop a hand or two.

I agree with Olympian, for the most part defense is making your opponent miss which weaves into setting your own attacks up.

In regards to a good defensive fighter worth mentioning is "the untouchable" Nocolino Locche. He reminded me of Willy Pep in a few respects, you couldn't land a jab on him with a machine gun, he could shoulder-roll, sucker a guy to throw a punch and turn the tables on them like the fighters before him.

Funny to think that all these moves, even the sharp perception of defense was almost universal in the 40's and 50's. Now it's seldom that you'll see a complete defensive package, but a few names these days bring back that old magic.

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"Making your opponent miss whether your hands is up or down" means you still need "reflex" to do that. and the topic says reflex aside, what is the best defense right? "If your hands is down" and you don't have a reflex to support it in order to make the opponent miss, then you'll only be just a live human punching bag.

I think the best defense is James Toney type rolling the shoulder and blocking. I know guys say moving the head is great, but when a guy gets older that head stops moving, and even if it moves a little less that is enough to get hit hard. Having a jab and blocking it and rolling the shoulder is better and the use of experience can actually make a guy more defensive later than he was when he was young, but the head movement like Mike Tyson had was great until Mike got less motivated. Then guys started to hit him more, and also Tyson used his head movement to slip inside and land body shots, when he stopped using his head movement he started to get hit more since he was not on the inside as effectively and the guys were not as off balance for his counter shot, and he was on the outside in the range of his opponents.

You got it about the shoulders. James Toney, the Mayweathers made good use of their shoulders. Why not? I think it's become a neglected aspect that was once universal half a century ago.

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Originally Posted by sleeplessrevolution

"Making your opponent miss whether your hands is up or down" means you still need "reflex" to do that. and the topic says reflex aside, what is the best defense right? "If your hands is down" and you don't have a reflex to support it in order to make the opponent miss, then you'll only be just a live human punching bag.

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It's called timing punches. If your relflexes are shot it doesn't matter if you hands are up or down you're going to hit all day. Arche Moore in his later fights didn't have great reflexes but it was his experience and the perception that went with it that allowed him to counter and draw his opponents. You don't need RJJ/PBF reflexes to set a guy up or counter, but you need enough reflexes and some well trained eyes to time a punch and land your own. This goes hand in hand w/ defense.

[quote=Chris N. ]

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Originally Posted by sleeplessrevolution

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Originally Posted by Chris N.

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Originally Posted by sleeplessrevolution

in my opinion, reflexes aside i think the 2nd best defense is still the "boxer stance" because it is more likely for a boxer to be hittable when his arms are put down than say a style like winky where his arms are always up and ready for a cover.

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It's called timing punches. If your relflexes are shot it doesn't matter if you hands are up or down you're going to hit all day. Arche Moore in his later fights didn't have great reflexes but it was his experience and the perception that went with it that allowed him to counter and draw his opponents. You don't need RJJ/PBF reflexes to set a guy up or counter, but you need enough reflexes and some well trained eyes to time a punch and land your own. This goes hand in hand w/ defense.

A good fighter will drop his arms to invite an attack that they'll counter, that's one way sucker a guy to throw a punch. Look at Archie Moore who's one of the earlier fighters to adopt a defense like Winky's. Moore had his hands up for most of the fight, but when he was trying to set them up he'd drop a hand or two.

I agree with Olympian, for the most part defense is making your opponent miss which weaves into setting your own attacks up.

In regards to a good defensive fighter worth mentioning is "the untouchable" Nocolino Locche. He reminded me of Willy Pep in a few respects, you couldn't land a jab on him with a machine gun, he could shoulder-roll, sucker a guy to throw a punch and turn the tables on them like the fighters before him.

Funny to think that all these moves, even the sharp perception of defense was almost universal in the 40's and 50's. Now it's seldom that you'll see a complete defensive package, but a few names these days bring back that old magic.

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"Making your opponent miss whether your hands is up or down" means you still need "reflex" to do that. and the topic says reflex aside, what is the best defense right? "If your hands is down" and you don't have a reflex to support it in order to make the opponent miss, then you'll only be just a live human punching bag.

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Mate counter punching needs tremendous reflex because without it you couldn't see where the punches of your opponent coming from in order for you to time and counter punch them right away.

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Originally Posted by Chris N.

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Originally Posted by sleeplessrevolution

"Making your opponent miss whether your hands is up or down" means you still need "reflex" to do that. and the topic says reflex aside, what is the best defense right? "If your hands is down" and you don't have a reflex to support it in order to make the opponent miss, then you'll only be just a live human punching bag.

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It's called timing punches. If your relflexes are shot it doesn't matter if you hands are up or down you're going to hit all day. Arche Moore in his later fights didn't have great reflexes but it was his experience and the perception that went with it that allowed him to counter and draw his opponents. You don't need RJJ/PBF reflexes to set a guy up or counter, but you need enough reflexes and some well trained eyes to time a punch and land your own. This goes hand in hand w/ defense.

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Mate counter punching needs tremendous reflex because without it you couldn't see where the punches of your opponent coming from in order for you to time and counter punch them right away.

Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence



A strong Offense. good accurate punching , power and timing !, it can be one hell of a defense.

Anyone remember the bad old days where if you were a black fella you'd have to go into a ring with bags over your head and slug it out. Bad times... Bad times...

Anyways if you want a good defense, assuming that you are a blind statue with the reflexes of a rock, you're at least going to have to stop making stupid mistakes. Well, Duh... If half of boxing is capitalizing on another guy's mistakes, then you are better offdoing yourseld a favor by not giving that guy all the chances to beat you.

A lot of guys think that it's just good punching, but if they end up being predictable, and single-minded for that matter then accuracy, speed and power isn't going to make a world's difference in keeping you out of harms way/

A Young, in shape James Toney

Yeah James Toney has one of the best defenses I have seen. More effective than Roy Jones since Roy relies so much on speed and skill to get out of the way of punches. When Roy got a little older he was not as effective. Marlon Starling had an interesting defense with his gloves many years ago, yet a guy with handspeed usually could penetrate his gloves and since he had his gloves so high he could not punch as well since he had to come way down to counterpunch, but he had great defense. I guess if you combine Marlon Starling with James Toney that is a heck of a combination for defense without reflexes.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

Roy Jones Jr.
Willie Pep
Mayweather Jr.
Whitaker
Winky Wright

all had/have great reflexes but that doesn't always mean everything. Ali had great reflexes, but when he fought flat footed he was relatively easy to hit footwork aside. Leonard also appeared that way. Michael Nunn, Meldrick Taylor, Shane Mosley all have great reflexes, but they could be hit. What of the top mentioned guys had the best defensive style in that the most people could use it effectively? I would say Wright.

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Wright probably has the best textbook boxing defense, yes. That doesnt mean it is the best. There is no one best defense in terms of picking a style of defensive posture or technique and saying, "that's the best". A fighter's defense depends on the fighter; their size/body type, how he or she moves, their speed, chin, power and the type of fighter they mentally believe they are. What works in a textbook; hands-up, elbows-in-and-down defense may not work for a rangy fighter with a lot of speed who generates more power in looping punches thrown from a position where the hands are lower than normal. I would think a more James Toney/Roy Jones-like stance; with the left slightly down; guarding the body, while employeeing the use of "fades" and evasive maneuvers then immediately counterpunching (like fading back to avoid a straight punch then coming back with the counter overhand right) would be a better type of defense for this type of boxer than would a more balanced textbook defensive style (ala winky wright) or a style that called for a crouching, tight, inside-fighting defensive style (like the "peek a boo" defense made popular by Cus D'Amato that can be seen in Mike Tyson and the late Floyd Patterson), because he would be able to use his speed and range to the best of his ability. So basically I think the best defense for a fighter depends on that fighters body type, speed, power and chin. Everyone is different. Different types of defenses work better for different people. Good topic. O0

Actually one fight which shows how a guy can have good defense and not move his head that much is Roberto Duran vs. Marvin Hagler. Roberto was great at using his skill and experience to sort of be economical and get Marvin into a rhythm which then made it easy for Roberto to use his great inside defensive skills. I think if a guy can get another guy into his rhythm then the defense can work well also. Hearns was a guy who Hagler said used his offense as his defense, and it works until someone starts to swing punches recklessly.. And that is Hearns weakness. A guy who throws punches while being nail by Hearns. ANd there comes in Iran Barklay. I rambled again. Leonard was good defensively until he got older and then Norris demolished him easily. But Ray always relied on reflexes which once they go the fighter is pretty much finished like Ray Leonard and Mike Tyson.

High offensive output, and good jabbing always helps. Lewis, Mike Moorer, didn't have chins, but won alot of fights against good opponents. Timing with the jab can change a fight, or fighter. Forrest vs Mosely.

Best defense= Keep your hands up.

The thing is you can duck and move yourself like TOney and Them but keep your hands like wright... Its not as versatile for counter punching, but it is effective in blocking punches.