If Ali Fought Marciano's Opponents and Marciano Fought Ali's Opponents.....

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Originally Posted by skyler

Anyone capable of knocking out a prime George Foreman is more than likely to knockout 49 pint-sized heavyweight opponents.

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Dumb assumption to make because there are too many different scenarios. If you remember, Ali didn't exactly blast Foreman out. He waited until George was exhausted and had nothing left, knocked him down, and George was unable to get up.

You think every one of Marciano's opponents would gas out like Foreman did?

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Originally Posted by Lyle

The list goes on and on......only idiots like you think bigger guys always win......Nicolay Valuev anyone???

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The bigger guy doesn't always win, but IMO Marciano's style put him at a huge disadvantage to guys who were much bigger like Foreman, Liston, and even Frazier.

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Originally Posted by sexydarin

Rocky ko'd joe louis when louis outweighed him by 20 some pounds. Size and greatness didn't matter in that fight, but it does in a lot of others.

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Again you fail to mention that Jou Louis was WAAAAY over the hill when he fought Marciano. I mean, Ali had the weight advantage over Holmes and Berbick too.

Is it just me or is this thread filled with terribly flawed logic??

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Originally Posted by Punisher136

Sonny Liston I - KOd in 3 (Let me break this too you gently... no one and i mean NO ONE is gonna floor the rock for a straight up 10 count thats an absurd prediction a tko on cuts is a different story)

Sonny Liston II - KOd in 1  ::**

George Chuvalo I - KOd in 4 (All im gonna say is i'll bet every cent i can get my hands on for the OVER)

George Chuvalo II - KOd in 1 (The only thing more ridiculous than saying the rock would hit the floor for the count in the first is saying chuvalo would hit the floor for the count in the first)

Joe Frazier I - KOd in 4 (Lets look back at what foreman did to frazier.... exactly)

Joe Frazier II - KOd in 3 (Rocky hit harder and frazier had more of a paper face)

Joe Frazier III -KOd in 1 (are just picking rounds at random ??? )

Buster Mathis - UD (Ali knocked the dude down 4 times. you're gonna tell me the rock couldn't take him out?)

Ken Norton I - KOd in 3 (if he couldn't finish ali off with a broken jaw, he wasn't gonna finish the rock off either)

Ken Norton II - TKOd in 3 (no just no)

Ken Norton III - KOd in 2 (If an increasingly slower and slower ali could beat him, i rest my case)

George Foreman - Towel thrown in in 1 (foreman might pull this fight out but no way he's making one of the most dedicated fighters in the history of the sport quit)

Ron Lyle - KOd in 3 (You did watch this fight were a clearly shot slow moving ali ko'd him late in the fight ala marciano-walcott 1 right??)

Joe Bugner - UD (WHO ??? )

Jimmy Young - TKO in 6 (no comment i really don't know what to say this time)

Earnie Shavers - KO in 1 (He got knocked out in the first round by quarry and you're gonna say he dominates the rock? I don't care if you think he punches hard, his record and ko ratio are just as padded as don steele's)

Leon Spinks I - KO in 7 (marciano would wipe the floor with him)

Leon Spinks II - KO in 3 (He F****** lost to an ali that was so shot, Ali had no business fighting anymore but he did and he won. But he'd beat marciano yeah i bet you got this spinks in your top 10 heavyweight list  ::**)

Alfredo Evangelista - UD (WHO ??? )

Larry Holmes - KO in 5 (Holmes isn't koing anybody with a chin worth a damn. FACT.)

Trevor Berbick - KO in 5 (If marciano has parkinsons then yes but if not, no.)

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Yes lets he was much bigger than Frazier and his style was tailor made for Foreman and ?? that has got nothing to do with Marciano vs Rocky match up which the Rock would lose.


And as for Jimmy Young he was very slick and he took Foremans best in 7th round and Foreman hits harder than Rocky and still comeback and staggered Foreman Young could outslick and out point Rocky.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

The bigger guy doesn't always win, but IMO Marciano's style put him at a huge disadvantage to guys who were much bigger like Foreman, Liston, and even Frazier.

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Well let us not forget that Rocky was the underdog in the majority of his fights.

Rocky has done EVERYTHING, he's won every way a fighter can win! Coming from behind, coming off the canvas, 1st round, decision, and so on and so forth.

Rocky is all heart and and I wouldn't count him out vs anyone

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Rocky is all heart and and I wouldn't count him out vs anyone

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Neither would I. I'm not doubting his heart or his power, clearly when you have the power, stamina and will that Marciano had, you can't count someone like that out.

I agree he's done alot, but the fact is he's never faced a guy like Liston or Foreman who was much bigger and could bang harder (arguably) than him. Marciano was fairly one dimensional (albeit it was a very strong dimension), and when you can only fight one fight, eventually you're going to run up against someone who can do it better, or is a bad stylistic matchup for your style.

And imo big bangers like Liston and Foreman, and great movers/jabbers like Holmes and Ali would be Marciano's kryptonite.

Joe Louis was only 38 years old. He was not prime, but he was not waayyyyy over the hill.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Rocky wouldn't lose to Liston....just my opinion

Rocky would BLAST Patterson away

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Originally Posted by skyler

I can't think of too many heavyweights who wouldn't be 49-0 with 49 knockouts with Marciano's opponents.

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Well obviously there was only one who could do it at the time.....I can't think of anyone having trouble with Tyson's opponents either....in fact I think Rocky could have beat them too: Tillis, Bruno, Spinks, OLD Larry Holmes, Green.

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cc Lyle.. i think you got the pulse.. Someone above said Trevor Berbick would have beat Marciano, I got a chuckle from that. Marciano at 56 would have beat the slow methodical Berbick trust me. . ! .. LOL

Marciano brutally KOd by Jeff Lacy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2vnc...elated&search=

....yeah and I beat Ali with Eric Morales what the fuck do you think of that?

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Originally Posted by sexydarin

You would have to give marciano an extra 30 pounds. He would be considered light heavyweight today. If the rock weighed 220 or 230 he would have killed most of ali's opponents.

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Yeah, and he would have been nearly fifty years old too

;)

the truth is every1 will always hound marciano 4 his opposition--yet what other great did joe louis beat? there were no other greats during louis time--so he stood out and dominated--same goes 4 rocky. not 2 mention dempsey who had the worst oppostion outta the three--so go pick on dempsey!

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Originally Posted by Lyle

....yeah and I beat Ali with Eric Morales what the F*** do you think of that?

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cc Lyle

I mean size ain't EVERYTHING.... if it was Nicolay Valuev would still be undefeated

Size is only a benefit to a fighter if you can use it to your advantage....Diego Corrales (r.i.p), very tall but never learned to fight on the outside like he should have and therefore his height was not a benefit to him.


The same thing with strength and speed and everything else.....if you can't use it to your advantage then it doesn't matter.

Here's a Teddy Atlas-ism
"It's like if a guy has a Ferrari and he only drives it 30 miles per hour"

Doesn't really matter what you have skill wise but how you use it that is the main point

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Originally Posted by Lyle

I mean size ain't EVERYTHING.... if it was Nicolay Valuev would still be undefeated

Size is only a benefit to a fighter if you can use it to your advantage....Diego Corrales (r.i.p), very tall but never learned to fight on the outside like he should have and therefore his height was not a benefit to him.


The same thing with strength and speed and everything else.....if you can't use it to your advantage then it doesn't matter.

Here's a Teddy Atlas-ism
"It's like if a guy has a Ferrari and he only drives it 30 miles per hour"

Doesn't really matter what you have skill wise but how you use it that is the main point

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Exactly, and Marciano had neither size nor skill ;D

.....and yet he was never beaten......he wasn't Irish so that means he didn't have a 4 leaf clover up his ass either!

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Originally Posted by Punisher136

Sonny Liston I - KOd in 3 (Let me break this too you gently... no one and i mean NO ONE is gonna floor the rock for a straight up 10 count thats an absurd prediction a tko on cuts is a different story)

Sonny Liston II - KOd in 1 ::**

George Chuvalo I - KOd in 4 (All im gonna say is i'll bet every cent i can get my hands on for the OVER)

George Chuvalo II - KOd in 1 (The only thing more ridiculous than saying the rock would hit the floor for the count in the first is saying chuvalo would hit the floor for the count in the first)

Joe Frazier I - KOd in 4 (Lets look back at what foreman did to frazier.... exactly)

Joe Frazier II - KOd in 3 (Rocky hit harder and frazier had more of a paper face)

Joe Frazier III -KOd in 1 (are just picking rounds at random ??? )

Buster Mathis - UD (Ali knocked the dude down 4 times. you're gonna tell me the rock couldn't take him out?)

Ken Norton I - KOd in 3 (if he couldn't finish ali off with a broken jaw, he wasn't gonna finish the rock off either)

Ken Norton II - TKOd in 3 (no just no)

Ken Norton III - KOd in 2 (If an increasingly slower and slower ali could beat him, i rest my case)

George Foreman - Towel thrown in in 1 (foreman might pull this fight out but no way he's making one of the most dedicated fighters in the history of the sport quit)

Ron Lyle - KOd in 3 (You did watch this fight were a clearly shot slow moving ali ko'd him late in the fight ala marciano-walcott 1 right??)

Joe Bugner - UD (WHO ??? )

Jimmy Young - TKO in 6 (no comment i really don't know what to say this time)

Earnie Shavers - KO in 1 (He got knocked out in the first round by quarry and you're gonna say he dominates the rock? I don't care if you think he punches hard, his record and ko ratio are just as padded as don steele's)

Leon Spinks I - KO in 7 (marciano would wipe the floor with him)

Leon Spinks II - KO in 3 (He F****** lost to an ali that was so shot, Ali had no business fighting anymore but he did and he won. But he'd beat marciano yeah i bet you got this spinks in your top 10 heavyweight list ::**)

Alfredo Evangelista - UD (WHO ??? )

Larry Holmes - KO in 5 (Holmes isn't koing anybody with a chin worth a damn. FACT.)

Trevor Berbick - KO in 5 (If marciano has parkinsons then yes but if not, no.)

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:coolclick:

Am I the only one who thought this was hilarious?

Trevor Berbick - KO in 5 (If marciano has parkinsons then yes but if not, no.)

I spat my coffee out when I read that ;D

he said mariano would be 40-21
if i ever see this person i will kayo him so bad he'll s*** on his like a old person

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Originally Posted by headson

he said mariano would be 40-21
if i ever see this person i will kayo him so bad he'll s*** on his like a old person

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If there was a hall of fame for cyber-tough guys I'm sure you'd be on the first ballot.

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Originally Posted by smashcrusher

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Originally Posted by Lyle

I mean size ain't EVERYTHING.... if it was Nicolay Valuev would still be undefeated

Size is only a benefit to a fighter if you can use it to your advantage....Diego Corrales (r.i.p), very tall but never learned to fight on the outside like he should have and therefore his height was not a benefit to him.


The same thing with strength and speed and everything else.....if you can't use it to your advantage then it doesn't matter.

Here's a Teddy Atlas-ism
"It's like if a guy has a Ferrari and he only drives it 30 miles per hour"

Doesn't really matter what you have skill wise but how you use it that is the main point

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Exactly, and Marciano had neither size nor skill ;D

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dempsey had no skill also..dont exclude him out

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Originally Posted by smashcrusher

Exactly, and Marciano had neither size nor skill ;D

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Yeah he was just REALLY lucky.....you're an idiot.

Marciano had skills, I mean if he didn't have any skills at all wouldn't he suffer the same fate of Primo Carnera? anytime Primo fought someone halfway decent he got his big ass whupped!

I mean Primo had power but he had no skill at all and no coordination either.....makes it hard to land A punch much less a KO punch and Rocky KO'd a number of very good fighters.


And what's with everyone saying Joe Louis was small??? He was bigger than Mike Tyson!

Jack Dempsey had skill too

Nvm wrong post :(

I haven't gotten into a discussion you before Lyle, so I'll take a swing here.

Marciano's career was on a incline, he'd come to face better opponents, and his skills would keep improving.

I don't what everyone is coming off of, but Marciano had skills. All thanks to his excellent trainer Charlie Goldman, he learned how to move, where to move, how to make himself harder to hit, how to feint, how to set up his opponents, and with Charlie in his corner he could also adapt to opponents. None of this took away from his equalizers, his hard left hook and Suzy-Q, some of his knockouts have come from feinting and being purposely unpredictable.

Rocky wasn't the most versatile as others, but he could adapt a fight plan and change when need be. He fought very versatile opponents. Who's can be more versatile than Charles, Walcott and Moore, even other opponents were smart in the ring. You can't find a guy that can feint as well as Walcott, or can set up their shots and adapt as well as these guys. Marciano also fought tough chinned guys, Rex Layne, Carmine Vingo, Ezzard Charles.

Rocky got better too the more fights he got into, La Starza can vouch on that, he said it himself, and you can see it for yourself in their second fight. Rocky would've continued to improve if he hadn't retired, I can easily see him beating guys like Norton, Patterson, and the guys that Ali fought throughout his career.

Charlie Goldman was an excellent trainer, he was good friends with Ali's trainer, Angelo Dundee. He knew how to shape Rocky up for any fight, and with him in Rocky's corner I can see him take on big hitters like Liston, Foreman, and Frasier.

Norton gave Ali so much trouble because he knew how to catch his jab and counter which Ali or his Dundee could never figure out. Ali was never able to really set up Frazier even after countless predictable left hooks, in the fight that Frazier won the knockdown can be accounted for Ali's sloppy way of trowing a right uppercut that is asked for Fraziers left hook.

Rocky wasn't stupid, he'd be able to feint and set up his shots, so could Rocky's opponents who could do it better than Ali's.

Very good post CC

Rocky's defense was basically making the other fighter have to lunge to hit him, he'd have his legs basically straight but he'd be bent at the waist, left hand protecting his side and the right hand close to his face...it would be VERY difficult to land on him without having Suzy Q meet you in return



Rocky was 36 when he retired in 1955 after fighting Archie Moore....that being said I could still see him had he come back (which was rumored that he was going to do) beating the likes of Johansen, Patterson, and yes even Sonny Liston.

Antonio Margarito could beat Rocky Marciano, or so some would have you believe  ;D

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

Antonio Margarito could beat Rocky Marciano ;D

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Everyone can go ahead and hate on Rocky but 49(43 KO's)-0-0 really does speak for itself.

The names on Rocky's record are better than most anyone elses....name me a few heavyweights that fought better competition AND fought everyone there was to fight in the division at the time

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

Antonio Margarito could beat Rocky Marciano ;D

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Everyone can go ahead and hate on Rocky but 49(43 KO's)-0-0 really does speak for itself.

The names on Rocky's record are better than most anyone elses....name me a few heavyweights that fought better competition AND fought everyone there was to fight in the division at the time

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Ali
Holmes
Foreman
Holyfield
Lewis

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by smashcrusher

Exactly, and Marciano had neither size nor skill ;D

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Yeah he was just REALLY lucky.....you're an idiot.

Marciano had skills, I mean if he didn't have any skills at all wouldn't he suffer the same fate of Primo Carnera? anytime Primo fought someone halfway decent he got his big a** whupped!

I mean Primo had power but he had no skill at all and no coordination either.....makes it hard to land A punch much less a KO punch and Rocky KO'd a number of very good fighters.


And what's with everyone saying Joe Louis was small??? He was bigger than Mike Tyson!

Jack Dempsey had skill too

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lmao at this guy getting mad that his bum hero has been totally exposed as a fraud ;D ;D ;D

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

Antonio Margarito could beat Rocky Marciano ;D

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Everyone can go ahead and hate on Rocky but 49(43 KO's)-0-0 really does speak for itself.

The names on Rocky's record are better than most anyone elses....name me a few heavyweights that fought better competition AND fought everyone there was to fight in the division at the time

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Ali
Holmes
Foreman
Holyfield
Lewis

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Ali obviously foguht the best of all time and beat the best of all time that cannot be questioned

Holmes didn't fight anybody except an aging ali and a semi-primed mike tyson and spinks

Foreman also fought in the golden era so thats ok

Holyfield did ok

I'm not so sure lewis faced a guantlet of great opponents threw out his whole career.

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Originally Posted by Punisher136

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

Antonio Margarito could beat Rocky Marciano ;D

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Everyone can go ahead and hate on Rocky but 49(43 KO's)-0-0 really does speak for itself.

The names on Rocky's record are better than most anyone elses....name me a few heavyweights that fought better competition AND fought everyone there was to fight in the division at the time

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Ali
Holmes
Foreman
Holyfield
Lewis

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Ali obviously foguht the best of all time and beat the best of all time that cannot be questioned

Holmes didn't fight anybody except an aging ali and a semi-primed mike tyson and spinks

Foreman also fought in the golden era so thats ok

Holyfield did ok

I'm not so sure lewis faced a guantlet of great opponents threw out his whole career.

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Ken Norton
Earnie Shavers
Tex Cobb
Gerry Cooney
Tim Witherspoon
Leon Spinks

Are all nobodys ??

Ali LOST to some of the guys he fought.


Holmes didn't fight ANYONE that was a complete fighter....he fought BOXERS like Spinks....and PUNCHERS like Shavers but never really anyone in between....Witherspoon I guess comes closest.

Foreman fought good fighters....but then again there were good fighters to face then, the DEEPEST the division has ever been.

Holyfield...eh, I guess he did ok

Lewis fought SOME good competition

Walcott, Charles, Moore (who may have been old but like RJJ was lightheavyweight champion at the time), Rex Layne was supposed to be the next Jack Dempsey, Roland LaStarza was a heavyweight Winky Wright.....Rocky knocked all those guys out....he didn't just beat them he knocked them out.


TEX COBB??!?!?!?! are you fucking serious?

and Samson...the more you dis Rocky the more I like him....he never lost...what do you think of that jackass?

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Ali LOST to some of the guys he fought.


Holmes didn't fight ANYONE that was a complete fighter....he fought BOXERS like Spinks....and PUNCHERS like Shavers but never really anyone in between....Witherspoon I guess comes closest.

Foreman fought good fighters....but then again there were good fighters to face then, the DEEPEST the division has ever been.

Holyfield...eh, I guess he did ok

Lewis fought SOME good competition

Walcott, Charles, Moore (who may have been old but like RJJ was lightheavyweight champion at the time), Rex Layne was supposed to be the next Jack Dempsey, Roland LaStarza was a heavyweight Winky Wright.....Rocky knocked all those guys out....he didn't just beat them he knocked them out.


TEX COBB??!?!?!?! are you F****** serious?

and Samson...the more you dis Rocky the more I like him....he never lost...what do you think of that jackass?

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No i wern't serious with him Lyle was just a joke ;)

But technically didn't Rocky actually lose a pro fight im sure i see that somewhere where he changed his name or something.

Well the record that stands is 49-0-0 and that's what I follow

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Well the record that stands is 49-0-0 and that's what I follow

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'72 Dolphins went 17-0, and EVERYONE acknowledges they'd get their @ss kicked by every other all time great team. Every great heavyweight>Rocky ;D ;D ;D

sorry

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Originally Posted by Samson3000

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Well the record that stands is 49-0-0 and that's what I follow

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'72 Dolphins went 17-0, and EVERYONE acknowledges they'd get their @ss kicked by every other all time great team. Every great heavyweight>Rocky ;D ;D ;D

sorry

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Everyone who?


I can tell from your posting that you WANT to make a good point and stick it to me and you just can't ever get it done....we talk boxing and Rocky Marciano and now we're comparing it to the NFL?

Is there nothing else for you to do in your sad little world than TRY (and fail) to make a point about Rocky Marciano not being a great boxer?

Rocky's guts needs no more explanation but I gotta say that the shots that Walcott and Moore landed were devestating, it's a feat in itself to beat the count, more so to come right back up and turn the momentum of the fight. This isn't a Rocky Balboa theme, "How hard you get hit and keep goin." This is about real focus, able to fight your fight no matter how dizzy or hurt you are. This is what a real chin is about, not how much you can take off a punch but but standing up to it and continuing to give them hell.

I think I need to say something about Joe Louis in his fight against Marciano. This wasn't the Louis that fought Ezzard Charles or Walcott, this Louis was better, his jab got some of its' old sting back, Rocky's face proved it, he was in better condition. Granted this wasn't the Joe Louis that took on Max Baer and Schmelling, but this was as good as he could get in his comeback. Rocky's pace and pressure will tire anyone out, and that wore Louis down enough that Rocky could land his patented blockbusters.

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Originally Posted by Samson3000

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by smashcrusher

Exactly, and Marciano had neither size nor skill ;D

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Yeah he was just REALLY lucky.....you're an idiot.

Marciano had skills, I mean if he didn't have any skills at all wouldn't he suffer the same fate of Primo Carnera? anytime Primo fought someone halfway decent he got his big a** whupped!

I mean Primo had power but he had no skill at all and no coordination either.....makes it hard to land A punch much less a KO punch and Rocky KO'd a number of very good fighters.


And what's with everyone saying Joe Louis was small??? He was bigger than Mike Tyson!

Jack Dempsey had skill too

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lmao at this guy getting mad that his bum hero has been totally exposed as a fraud ;D ;D ;D

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Rocky has never been exposed even though he was the smaller man in the bigger mans world.

Look how many smaller guys made a go in the division.

Dempsey, Tunney, Loughran, Moore, Tyson there are others all greats in their own right.

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Originally Posted by Samson3000

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Well the record that stands is 49-0-0 and that's what I follow

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'72 Dolphins went 17-0, and EVERYONE acknowledges they'd get their @ss kicked by every other all time great team. Every great heavyweight>Rocky ;D ;D ;D

sorry

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comparing football records to boxing records is just retarded. SRR record was 140-1 at one time--your right records dont say anything ::**

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Originally Posted by Chris N.

Look how many smaller guys made a go in the division.

Dempsey, Tunney, Loughran, Moore, Tyson there are others all greats in their own right.

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How many smaller guys had this W 49 (43 ko's) | L 0 | D 0 | Total 49 ?