I agree , well said. cc ! SRL was one of the most complete fighters ever . Ray could box on the outside masterfully , had the balls to take it an opponent when the oppertunity presented itself. All Time great .Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad_Dog
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I agree , well said. cc ! SRL was one of the most complete fighters ever . Ray could box on the outside masterfully , had the balls to take it an opponent when the oppertunity presented itself. All Time great .Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad_Dog
Totally agreed. If it weren't for his injury and long layoff, I think he would have been the best ever, or at least within the top 3. He outboxed the 'unbeatable' Hagler, just coming off that long layoff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lords Gym
cc mate .. most impressive fighter in my opinion.. Ray could change gears in a New York second. another important eliment in my mind , was SRL had balls. Ray launched the attack on Hearns beating him from pillar to post, that was not supposed to happen. brilliant.Quote:
Originally Posted by penalosafan
CC right back. Yup, no doubt he was the most complete fighter in the history of boxing with power, speed, style, heart and a decent chin, and a smart fighter too. Too bad he got injured nearly at the top of his career. Wonder what kinda mean fighting machine he'd turned into if it weren't for the injury and the long layoff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lords Gym
I totally agree with this SRL didnt fight enough times in his career ( due to injury ) to be classed as top 5 , i personally think he was over rated . Hearns won thier rematch / Hagler won there fight .Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
So all in all the answer is YES he was over rated.
No one thinks Leonard is top 5 or top 10 p4p of all time and i think Leonard won the Hagler fight i think fans are split 50-50 on that fight and why was Leonard overrated because he got a gift decision against Hearns ?? well we might aswell say Ali is overrated aswell because he had his fair share of gift decisions arguably his record could have 8 losses on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al
SRL was not overrated IMO.
He was an exceptional fighter, blessed with ALL the attributes necessary to qualify him as a great fighter, plus some exceptional names on his record.
SRL's problem was that he was a bit spiteful; not having rematches or fighting people when it was no longer a really viable fight, plus he had too many lay-offs & comebacks.
Sugar didn't have as many fights but he did win a againts Benetiz,Duran,Hearns and Hagler and won belts in WW,LM,M,SM,LH so no i don't think his over rated and i think he is atleast 10 on the pound for pound list cause i can't think of 10 people that would be above him
Mr 140 the reason you cant is because there isnt. On his night he was the best Welter there has ever been. Yes I do know what Im talking about, and a lot of the great coaches Ive met agree including the old timers
Well thank you atleast some see's what i see when we talk about leonard's place on the pound for pound list because it always a debated subject i guess but i dont see what debatable about it he is a top 10
naw he aint great offensive fighter also like he still contibute to the boxing game
i think he ducked iran barkely
but not overated
go cornhuskers
Firstly,Ray's talent in itself was P4P. He is fully deserving of the sugar moniker. He could fight going forwards,backwards,incredible handspeed,jab,footwork,power. He could box Hagler,he could brawl with Hearns etc. He won mutliple weights and ususally fought the dangermen in that class.
Secondly,to say wins over the ATG Duran,Benitez,Hagler and Hearns are over rated is ridiculous. And anyone who calls the Hagler fight a robbery is ridiculous. It was a close fight which imo,Marvin started too late in. To come back from all the layoffs and still box Hagler like that is incredible.
Heck even his losses were to Camacho who could have been a superstar,Terry Noris who was superb and Duran,who is easily top 15 ATG. Even he was given the L against Hearns the second time,I'd still have SRL top 15 ATG for sure.
CC,good points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
If he couldn't out brawl you he would outbox you ....Duran
If he couldn't out box you he would out brawl you....Hearns
If he couldn't beat you he would make the judges think he beat you....Hagler
The reason I answered yes at the beginning is because the question is if Sugar Ray Leonard was a bit overrated.
I think the answer is yes. He was so popular and so flashy you just can't help to overrate him. But he was still great and at the very least a top 15 ATG.
Ducked Iran Barkley ?? first i've heard of this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Headson
Simply, No, Leonard is a true great and I believe that anyone with a good knowledge of boxing would rate him top 15 to top 20 of all time. I thought he beat Hagler and he beat a PRIME Hearns so i think that makes up for losing (at least in my eyes) to The Hitmanthe second time round wehn Tommy and ray were both older at past their peaks. If he would have fought Pryor I still wonder how that foight would hav went, it's a shame it never happened.
Me too.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
According to a lot of people, SRL has ducked half the planet!!!!!
Syntax, That made me smile :D cc
[quote=tedsares;368695
Numbers don't lie. Oh, I'll give you the draw against Hearns, but remember, he also stopped Benitiz and beat some other pretty good fighters.[/quote]
Numbers do lie .... you can make a set series of numbers to prove any point at all, that's why politicians do so well.
I must admit that I never did like Ray Leonard ... I thought he got everything on a plate (earning more in his pro Debut that Hagler did after 50 odd fights), he played around with the sport and didn't respect it by defending his titles and then retiring and unretiring all the time. He could be an arrogant prick at times and - to the day I die - I don't believe that he beat Hagler or drew with Hearns.
Still, having said that, he was a helluva fighter and I would never cast doubt on his ability, heart or skill in the ring. He always had a good chin and was as brave as they come (when he had to be). He would have taken Floyd Mayweather into a corner and ripped him apart. He could box, he was fast and he could hit.
A great fighter, definitely an all-time great ....... but IMO not the absolute legend of boxing that he is sometimes seen to be. The only reason I say this is because he did not have longevity ... which sounds strange as he was around for ages, but his lack of defences - or motivation to dominate a division - counts against him in my book.
(note: Marvin defended his title and reigned undisputed for years, Duran dominated the lightweights for a decade, and Hearns would fight anyone anyplace anytime ....... Hearns was a destroyer)
PS - the Adelphi is a shithole.
Hello Scrap - haven't seen you around for a while! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrap
How about the REAL Sugar Ray, Henry Armstrong, Sweet Pea and maybe even Mr Charles Burley?
I think he beats them all X and not getting into the Hagler thing because i thought he won. But with the sticking around thing and title deffences well you can blame hearns for that because if not for the eye thing ray i am sure would of done even more been up there with srr.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Pryor vs. Arguello. The one I mixed. :)
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Was Ray Leonard over rated? Not in any way what so ever, if you are a boxing fan...by boxing fan I mean fan of the game over all and is able to give a fighter credit for his accomplishments, skills etc regardless of personal feelings towards them......Can not say Ray Leonard was over rated in any way....in the later years he was given some gift decsions but the welterweight version of Leonard was as good as a fighter can get....
I am not going to break down reasons why....anyone who doubts it needs to take a closer look at his career
And I am not a fan of Leonards
I thought that the decision against Hagler was the right one personally, although I think he did lose the Hearns fight (2nd time)
I would say a little bit overated, but not much. The only thing i didn't like was how he ran against hagler and duran in the second fight. He got a gift stoppage against hearns, but other than that, when he didn't run, he was pretty good.
I actually disagree with all of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by awdleyfuturehalloffamer
1.Hagler was at ATG Middleweight.
To stand and fight with Hagler would have been without exaggeration suicide.
2. Duran could beat Leonard in close.
"Running" or boxing on the backfoot, was the ideal way to frustrate Duran, as Duran in close would still have hurt Leonard.
3. Hearns was legitimately stopped.
Herans had outboxed Sugar comprehensively, but he was fatigued from doing so. Ray went out for the stoppage he stallked well and finished very very well.
theres no question the 2nd leonard vs hearns fight was a robbery even if you scored the rounds 10-8 where leonard dominated hearns in the 5th and 12th hearns is still the clear winnerQuote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyu
I concur.Quote:
Originally Posted by sssstheres no question the 2nd leonard vs hearns fight was a robbery even if you scored the rounds 10-8 where leonard dominated hearns in the 5th and 12th hearns is still the clear winnerQuote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyu
Im always quite mystifed when boxing fans call fighters overrated what they actually mean skills ? opposition ? overrated by the general public ? if we are talking about opposition then he certainly isn't overrated and he never ducked anyone unless you believe he ducked junior welterweight Pryor which i dont because when you face a prime Hearns then you certainly wouldnt duck someone like Pryor Skill wise also certainly not he is one of the most skilled fighters in boxing history he was the complete package and even had underrated power in which he could turn a fight around with one punch as for the last subject being overrated by the general public well that could be true of any great fighter but from alot of hardcore fans i have seen people like the topic creator calling Ray overrated so really is he overrated when you think about it ?
Aaron Pryor, a great (but underachieving) fighter, has become one of the most overrated fighters in history. Thank the HBO series Legendary Nights.
Nahh he wasn't overrated. The guy had it all, speed, power, a chin and HEART.
The Hagler fight is a tossup, I felt he won, but even the fact that he did so well against a NATURAL middleweight (lets not forget SRR started his career at 140lbs) coming off of such a long layoff was tremendous.
Thats one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Overrated?? The guy is relatively obscure because the only big name to give him a shot was Arguello, and we all know how Pryor handled himself against Alexis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thread Stealer
I don't think Sugar Ray Leonard is overated at all.
Interms of the man at his best then from the Hagler fight onwards the man was nothing like the man at his prime. The skills he had as a Welterweight did not carry upto Middleweight especially with the lay-off.
Sugar Ray Leonard at his best is easily in the Top 10 P4P of all-time - he had everything.
Even Leonard said in Boxing Monthly recently that Hearns won the fight but that fight has no bearing on either fight as they were both past their best easily. It was just 2 old legends doing the senior tour. At their best at Welter Leonard won and thats when it counts.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonnyI concur.Quote:
Originally Posted by sssstheres no question the 2nd leonard vs hearns fight was a robbery even if you scored the rounds 10-8 where leonard dominated hearns in the 5th and 12th hearns is still the clear winnerQuote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyu
Yes, Pryor is overrated.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerThats one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Overrated?? The guy is relatively obscure because the only big name to give him a shot was Arguello, and we all know how Pryor handled himself against Alexis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thread Stealer
He is not obscure on boxing message boards because people always talk about how great he is and how Leonard "feared" him because they watched an HBO documentary.
Just a couple days ago, on ESB, I've read more than one poster say he's a top 15 fighter all-time. That's not an uncommon occurence either, I've read that quite a bit.
In 2002, The Ring had him at #35 of the greatest fighters of the last 80 years, ahead of more deserving and more accomplished fighters.
People talk about how the big names avoided him. Since when do welterweights have an obligation to fight junior welterweights? Because he 'called out' Leonard? :rolleyes:
His best wins were over an Arguello who peaked 2 divisions lower, and an old Cervantes. He had some solid wins over contenders, but nowhere near enough achievement to get the rankings he often gets from the Legendary Nights Generation of Boxing Fans.
For me SRL was gud, overated no
If he didn't "run" from Hagler and Duran, he would have no shot at winning those fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonnyI actually disagree with all of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by awdleyfuturehalloffamer
1.Hagler was at ATG Middleweight.
To stand and fight with Hagler would have been without exaggeration suicide.
2. Duran could beat Leonard in close.
"Running" or boxing on the backfoot, was the ideal way to frustrate Duran, as Duran in close would still have hurt Leonard.
3. Hearns was legitimately stopped.
Herans had outboxed Sugar comprehensively, but he was fatigued from doing so. Ray went out for the stoppage he stallked well and finished very very well.
Sugar Ray Leonard, overrated?!?!?! I can't believe someone would even say this! He's the only one who beat all of the guys when Duran, Hearns, and Hagler were fighting each other.