Why did you go easy on him? ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
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Why did you go easy on him? ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
That makes him the best in his division. pound for pound I always ranked by fighters that do good in more than 1 division. If he moves up or down and fights and wins I would put him in the p4p rankings.Quote:
Uhh beating two of the best in division isn't P4P ?? so he has to fight in different weight divisions to be P4P
Which one of those would you take out in order to fit Cotto in?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugar_Shaw
One could make an argument for having Pavlik at number 10 but no higher as a matter of principle, since he beat a previous pound-for-pound top ten but not that much else (though certtainly Miranda was quite impressive). Then, as he continues to prove himself, he can go up.
I'd put Pavlik in the bottom half of the top 10. A win over Abraham would move him into top 5 on my list.
Currently on other lists:
Ring Magazine (last edit 9/24/07) Boxrec (last edit unknown)
Floyd B-hop
Pac Floyd
JMM Israel Vasquez
B-hop Hatton
Israel Vasquez Cristian Mijares
Winky Mosley
Rafael Marquez Pavlik
Calzaghe Pac
Hatton Cotto
Cotto JMM
People in boxrec are on crack. Their ATGs and p4p lists are whacked!Quote:
Originally Posted by slk123
Dudes,lets not under rate Pavlik here. JT beat B Hop TWICE and drew with Winky in a fight that could have gone either way!!!! Pavlik looked better against him than them both and he also beat Miranda AND is undefeated AND is the lineal champ. His resume is just as impressive as someone like Hatton!! I'd have him at 7 or 8,I'm not doing a list until the rest of the years fights are over though.
You can diss JT as much as you want but he drew and beat 2 HOF fighters. And although I thought he lost,he has a W against the best fighter at 154. I LOVE LOVE Cotto but Pavlik has done more than him. Kelly has done more than Mosley as of late.
And I'm sorry,but NO WAY is Hatton top 5. That's absurd.Totally.
On crack, lmao!! Crack kills my friend :Moon:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacstraightleft
the fact that B-hop and winky is in the rings top 10 p4p tells me that pavlik should be there easily. Pavlik did what they couldnt. and he didnt weasle out a SD either. He took jermaine taylors BEST, then beat him.
Of course Hatton is higher p4p than Pavlik. ???Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gamo
Not sure what you've been taking today buddy but your opinions are getting more wack than mine :P
Let's consider, Hatton also beat THE man in his division, via stoppage but didn't almost get knocked the F*** out in the process. He's also won 4 world title belts across two weight divisions compared to Pavliks one.
He also stopped by sensational one punch bodyshot a former great and p4p star Jose Luis Castillo.
Now you can say Castillo was done and that Collazo should have beat him yada yada yada but the facts remain he still won, he's beaten everyone put in front of him and had been THE man at 140 for two years.
Pavlik has been the man at 160 for 24 hours, cmon man you don't just leapfrog your way up into the top 5 based on that ::**
And anyway where's your loyalty? Hatton not top 10 neither Calzaghe and Kessler above Joe.
I think 'Big' Dan McCarthy needs to have a stern talk to you young man, time to stick you on the naughty step
I would put Kelly around 7 or 8.
If you got Hopkins and wright in there, then JT should be in there too. He beat Hopkins twice and drew with Winky!
1. PBF= still undefeated fighting bigger guys, currently beat a much bigger ODLH.
2. Hopkins= OLD beating younger guys, beat a much larger Tarver.
3. PAC= kayoed both MAB and EM(2x) and started much lighter than the opposition.
4. Winky= big wins over Tito and Mosely(2x) can never be forgotten, shouldve gotten the nod over Taylor, fight with Hopkins was close.
5. Pavlik= p4p the hardest hitter today IMO, stopping both a highly regarded puncher in Miranda and Middleweight king Taylor.
6. Mosely= knocking out a bigger/younger Vargas twice is a feat IMO.
7. Joe Calzaghe= longest reigning champ, need I say more.
8. Klitsckho= starts to clean the division.
9. Miguel Cotto= ever improving, and p4p 2nd strongest puncher today next to Pavlik.
10. Ricky Hatton= undefeated streak and big win over Castillo earned him this spot IMO.
The thing is Taylor wasnt in most peoples P4P list to begin with + Taylor beat Hopkins and drew with Winky not Pavlik i think both those guys would outbox Pavlik as they have water tight defense and Winky has a good jab and Bhop is great at counter punching.
Floyd
B-hop
Pac
JMM
Calzaghi
Cotto
Mosley
Hatton
Vasquez
R.Marquez
yea but they have not fought so it just baised on a opinion and i think pavlik would over power them to tell you the truth they do not have the power to keep him off and winkey has been 1-1-1 and b-hop has been 2-2 and Pavlik is 2-0 and is the new middle wieght champion after beating the man that beat b-hop twice and had a draw with winky and that is the way it is regradless of what anyone thinks so why not have him in teh pound for pound
::** ::** ::** ::** Please go back to my post and tell where I said that Pavlik was higher than Hatton. Please,go ahead.Someone put Hatton at number 5 and I merely pointed to the fact that no way should he be there. ;D ;D ;D ;D Good try bro. ;D ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
1. Mayweather
2. Hatton
3.Ponce De Leon
4.Vasquez
5.Manny Pac
6.Pavlik
7.Mosley
8.Hopkins
9.Berra
10.Marquez
Hatton at number 2 ?? Hopkins at 8 ?? De Leon at 3 ?? Pac at 5 ?? what the hell ??Quote:
Originally Posted by southakron314
Its all pure speculation, no one ever knows the answer to that. Only a tournament with no weight classes could ever answer that question and then because guys like mayweather couldnt last long against a heavy weight, algebraic equations would have to be used to figure weight differneces and how long they were able to last against heavier comp. Then how would you measure guys like Lennox Lewis or Wvladimir Klitschko who would destroy everyone from all weight classes?
Easy.....Hopkins is almost a senior citizen . Loen kills everybody. PAcMan at 5 seems right.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
I think Hatton is one of the best in the world in boxing. His energy is untamed and his body attak is great. He took out JLC like he was last nights garbage.
Well you said Pavliks resume was 'as impressive' as Hattons and would place him at number 7 in the rankings.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gamo
You also said that Hatton at 5 is 'absurd'
So what you are telling me is that you think it is 'absurd' for Hatton to be at 5 but you'd rate him higher than Pavlik who you place at 7.
So Hatton is according to your own logic p4p number 6.
Uhm.......right then, number 5 is ABSURD but 6 is ok. ::** ;)
Why would you make a posting saying someone else's choice of him at 5 is ABSURD and yet only rate him 1 lower yourself?
I wanted to respect the choices of people in terms of ranking but obviously this ranking is preposterous. Manny Pac @ 5? Who is Berra, by the way?Quote:
Originally Posted by southakron314
This is a joke right?Quote:
Originally Posted by southakron314
Hatton at 2?
De Leon at 3. He is only just top 3 in his own division.
Atleast u got number1 right.
I love Hatton and all that, but #2 ??? That would mean Tye Fields should be in the top 20 at least :D
I got Pavlik coming in at number 15 with Taylor dropping out of the top 15.
I still can't see how you could compare Pavlik to the guys on the list.
I havent read all of the thread yet but I like both Taylor and Pavlik..
A big point in this fight was Taylor fought the best fight he has in years, hurt pavilk when taylor was at full strength... and still couldnt beat him, or even hurt him again..
i just watched it for the second time and it seemed like kelly was fixing to talk sh!t to taylor right before he got hit the the punch that hurt him.... and that is the reason he got hit with that punch..
taylor hit him with about 15 of the hardest punches he had before pavlik went down, and pavlik hit him with about 6 shots to end the fight and TAYLOR WAS OUT COLD.... the ref was standing close to him to keep him from falling forward on his face.... i thought he was just hurt but smoger (a ref known for letting the fight go on) said he was completely knocked out...
then i watched the replay taylor's eyes looked closed he was slumped against the ropes and the ref completely unconscious
Pavlik should be around 7 P4P.... that being said hopkins and winky didnt look near as impressive against taylor as pavlik did..
If Pavlik stops taunting taylor(facial gestures) and throws alot of jabs pavlik will beat taylor again at 166 or 160.....
How can Pavlik only come in at number 15? When he beat a guy who was on 90% of P4P lists? When he beat a guy who has wins over Hopkins(and he won the second fight decisively) and he had a close fight with Winky which could have gone either way? So B Hop,who most have top 3,struggled twice with JT,the the best version of JT shows up v Pavlik,Kelly KTFO him out? I'm not understanding the thinking bro.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
people forget the easiest point here.
JT was the champ, he beat bhop and winky..
and pavlik ko'd him in the middle of the fight. no decision, no draw. KO
but yet, the guys who JT beat can be top 10, and pavlik cant?
???
Wait around Ponce De Leon will be one of the greats I had the same feeling about Pavlik 3 years ago and people thought I was crazy.Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle
Actually though 15 is still pretty high, I mean there are a lot of great fighters out there. Pavlik has only has one world title fight and won it sensationally granted.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gamo
But does that alone catapault him above guys such as Cotto, Mosely, Calderon, Spinks, Klitschko, Kessler etc? I'm not saying he's not above all those guys I'm just asking the question.
If Pavlik knocks out the guy in 6.75 rounds of boxing and that guy beat Hopkins twice,then why dose Hopkins get in the top five and Pavlik is in you 15th ranking? Please embellish on this because I'm confused.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
I haven't even tried to do a P4P list in a while, but Pavlik should be somewhere top fifteen, top ten isn't totally out of the question. I mean if he just got lucky against Taylor that would be one thing but he was winning the fight, outjabbing Taylor, outworking him, breaking him down and then knocking him out. He was very impressive in the Taylor and Miranda fights, I'm not sure how good Miranda really is, he was overhyped but he did allright against Abraham.
P4P ranking isn't based on a single fight alone though buddy. Hopkins is the longest reigning middleweight champ of all time. Prior to his razor thin decision losses to Taylor he was p4p number 1 in the sport and had reeled off 20 odd straight defenses.Quote:
Originally Posted by southakron314
He also held all the belts and was the unified middleweight champ.
Since his losses to Taylor he has rebounded beating THE man at 175 lb jumping two divisions in the process and has beaten the best other middleweight Winky Wright.
Hopkins is top 5 p4p NO QUESTION!
Pavlik did great last weekend and the whole boxing world just stood up and took notice. But he doesn't jump up as high as Hopkins on the back of one win.
The p4p rankings arn't (or shouldn't) be at the mercy of every single fight result. To be a top 10 p4p you need to have proven yourself, defended your title a few times, unified some belts, maybe moved up and won belts in two or more divisions.
When you consider Pavliks acomplishments in the light of other fighters he's not yet done a whole lot. Sure, he might go on to be great, but you don't become great on the back of a single win. If he defends his belt a few times, unifies the titles or makes a sucessful move up to 168 lb then he becomes one of the elite.
For now he's just made the first (huge) step. :)
Pavlik's undefeated,the lineal champion and KTFO the guy that beat B Hop twice and drew with JT. I'm not saying Kelly should be higher than B Hop but those accomplishments are as good as say Hatton's who's 1 biggest win was over Tsyu and alot of decent wins(Urango,Collazo,Maussa and Pavlik has Miranda,Zertuche,Mckart,Zuniga). Hatton was just an example.
Hatton was also the undefeated lineal champion and he's won a further three titles over two weight divisions since his win over Tsyzu ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gamo
I definitely think Pavlik is a candidate for fighter of the year but I wouldn't put him above Hatton just yet.
I'd say about 12 or 13 p4p thereabouts. He's on a par with guys like Kessler and Mosely imo
nice to see someone who isn't getting carried away with all this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
WELL MY TOP TEN IS THUSQuote:
Originally Posted by Preme
1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.9.10 all Joe Calzaghe because he has beat 20 big strong chalangers all by himself :Sarcasm:
So Auburn is better than Ohio State because Florida lost to Auburn and Ohio State got throttled. How is it not different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Sorry but I have no idea what you are talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by southakron314
Anyway my take on it is this. The p4p rankings are based on a fighters overall record and performances over a period of time not just one fight result.
Just like in a soccer or American Football league during the groups stages if you beat the top team it doesn't automatically put you above them, it depends how many points you both had before.
In soccer Man Utd might lose to Fulham but it doesn't mean Fulham will replace Man Utd's position in the league it depnds how many points they had both scored in the season so far.
Likewise in boxing, Pavlik scored a huge win over Jermain Taylor but he doesn't on the back of that win, his first title fight, jump into the top 10 p4p imo. Likewise Taylor doesn't plummet down too far, it doesn't work like that.
Violent D said Pavlik is about 15 and I broadly agree. He beat the man in the middleweight division, BUT at least half of all ref's would have stopped the fight in the second round in favour of Taylor, in which we case we would all be talking about how Taylor blew Pavlik away. He was also trailing on all scorecards as well so talk about a Pavlik domination of Taylor is overblown.
It was a terrific fight reminiscent of Vazquez Marquez and like those fights the rematch could just as easily swing the other way.
Meanwhile Pavlik has only had 1 world title fight. That doesn't catapualt you to top 10 p4p imo. I'd still have guys like Mosely, Calderon, Kessler etc above him just outside the top 10 as they have all won belts in multiple divisions or else won multiple belts in the same division.
If you are going to just raise someone 20 or 30 places on the p4p list on the back of one result then your p4p list is going to change more often than Michael Jacksons face.
He has two belts when i last checked the WBO and WBC i mean those are two belts and i think he has the ring belt which almost matters as much
Very true. He is the main man at 160 now. I would love to see him fight Abraham though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140