Logically why the universe cannot be infinite in size.

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Originally Posted by amat

Can't think about this type of stuff unless I'm high.

There is SO MUCH that we don't know though. Think about it. What the fuck are black holes? Nothing? How the fuck is that possible?

And how do we know the Earth's core is molten lava? Have we ever been there? What if it's water or something?

And it's ridiculous when people think we are the only lifeforms in the universe. Absolutely stupid. We are a nothing but a snowflake, for all we know other life knows we are here but has no reason to bother with us.

Talking about aliens, look at the Ocean. That is a WIERD place, yet we want to see life on Mars? Fuck that, find out what is on Earth first.

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Black holes aren't holes, they're just really high density mass but their heavy pull alters physics to a degree that makes it difficult to calculate it as a form of conventional mass. Volcanoes erupt, and they sure as hell don't the lava from the sky. The earths actual core is believed to be solid nickel, hot, but pressured by gravity and what not to the point of being solid anyway. I believe the center has to be solid but what it exactly it is a solid of, is anyone's guess but it's probably a single element and a metal.

Due to size alone, there has to be life out there. This planet will be unliveable (destroyed) in a couple million years (not by global warming but by the sun which is the samething responsible for the rising temperatures now) so for all the life to only be centered here doesn't make sense from a designing or statistical standpoint. Time travel is not possible physically. Mentally, it is but it is very limited as you could not go back and see what someone else saw unless at one point your sensual perception (soul if you wanna go that far) was there.

Here's something I did awhile back that freaked me out. It's probably something you would wanna try amat seeing as you're into those kind of drugs (I think they are all a load of shit and refuse to do them, but to each his own). Imagine trying to convince yourself that you are alive but doing so without your 5 senses. You cannot see, hear, taste, feel, or smell anything (obviously you still will be able to but your mind will know what to do at this point). Without your senses, your mind isn't grounded in reality and will wander, losing all ideas of time or human instinct. Without them, you will think of things as an intelligent being and not as a human. No emotions are tied into it as they are all physical components of the human body, just thinking.

After doing that for awhile I can honestly say you will find no difference between a dream, a memory of that dream, and a memory of something that "really" happened. You'll understand that proof of your existance is instantaneous. You can write down the past and you may even remember it to a degree, but the only thing you can account for actually happening is what you're doing right now. Later you and someone else might reflect on the moment but how do you know that person is really there? You'll never be able to have the same sense perception that they do, you just assume they think and respond to things just like you. There's 6.4 billion people in the world, and with that comes the territory of 6.4 billion alternate realities. To some people the world is a dark hopeless place, to others it is nearly perfect yet they are all seeing the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Punisher136

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Originally Posted by amat

Can't think about this type of stuff unless I'm high.

There is SO MUCH that we don't know though. Think about it. What the F*** are black holes? Nothing? How the F*** is that possible?

And how do we know the Earth's core is molten lava? Have we ever been there? What if it's water or something?

And it's ridiculous when people think we are the only lifeforms in the universe. Absolutely stupid. We are a nothing but a snowflake, for all we know other life knows we are here but has no reason to bother with us.

Talking about aliens, look at the Ocean. That is a WIERD place, yet we want to see life on Mars? F*** that, find out what is on Earth first.

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Black holes aren't holes, they're just really high density mass but their heavy pull alters physics to a degree that makes it difficult to calculate it as a form of conventional mass. Volcanoes erupt, and they sure as hell don't the lava from the sky. The earths actual core is believed to be solid nickel, hot, but pressured by gravity and what not to the point of being solid anyway. I believe the center has to be solid but what it exactly it is a solid of, is anyone's guess but it's probably a single element and a metal.

Due to size alone, there has to be life out there. This planet will be unliveable (destroyed) in a couple million years (not by global warming but by the sun which is the samething responsible for the rising temperatures now) so for all the life to only be centered here doesn't make sense from a designing or statistical standpoint. Time travel is not possible physically. Mentally, it is but it is very limited as you could not go back and see what someone else saw unless at one point your sensual perception (soul if you wanna go that far) was there.

Here's something I did awhile back that freaked me out. It's probably something you would wanna try amat seeing as you're into those kind of drugs (I think they are all a load of S*** and refuse to do them, but to each his own). Imagine trying to convince yourself that you are alive but doing so without your 5 senses. You cannot see, hear, taste, feel, or smell anything (obviously you still will be able to but your mind will know what to do at this point). Without your senses, your mind isn't grounded in reality and will wander, losing all ideas of time or human instinct. Without them, you will think of things as an intelligent being and not as a human. No emotions are tied into it as they are all physical components of the human body, just thinking.

After doing that for awhile I can honestly say you will find no difference between a dream, a memory of that dream, and a memory of something that "really" happened. You'll understand that proof of your existance is instantaneous. You can write down the past and you may even remember it to a degree, but the only thing you can account for actually happening is what you're doing right now. Later you and someone else might reflect on the moment but how do you know that person is really there? You'll never be able to have the same sense perception that they do, you just assume they think and respond to things just like you. There's 6.4 billion people in the world, and with that comes the territory of 6.4 billion alternate realities. To some people the world is a dark hopeless place, to others it is nearly perfect yet they are all seeing the same thing.

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Mate you need a day out even more than I do. At least open a window or pull the curtains. ;D

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by Punisher136

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Originally Posted by amat

Can't think about this type of stuff unless I'm high.

There is SO MUCH that we don't know though. Think about it. What the F*** are black holes? Nothing? How the F*** is that possible?

And how do we know the Earth's core is molten lava? Have we ever been there? What if it's water or something?

And it's ridiculous when people think we are the only lifeforms in the universe. Absolutely stupid. We are a nothing but a snowflake, for all we know other life knows we are here but has no reason to bother with us.

Talking about aliens, look at the Ocean. That is a WIERD place, yet we want to see life on Mars? F*** that, find out what is on Earth first.

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Black holes aren't holes, they're just really high density mass but their heavy pull alters physics to a degree that makes it difficult to calculate it as a form of conventional mass. Volcanoes erupt, and they sure as hell don't the lava from the sky. The earths actual core is believed to be solid nickel, hot, but pressured by gravity and what not to the point of being solid anyway. I believe the center has to be solid but what it exactly it is a solid of, is anyone's guess but it's probably a single element and a metal.

Due to size alone, there has to be life out there. This planet will be unliveable (destroyed) in a couple million years (not by global warming but by the sun which is the samething responsible for the rising temperatures now) so for all the life to only be centered here doesn't make sense from a designing or statistical standpoint. Time travel is not possible physically. Mentally, it is but it is very limited as you could not go back and see what someone else saw unless at one point your sensual perception (soul if you wanna go that far) was there.

Here's something I did awhile back that freaked me out. It's probably something you would wanna try amat seeing as you're into those kind of drugs (I think they are all a load of S*** and refuse to do them, but to each his own). Imagine trying to convince yourself that you are alive but doing so without your 5 senses. You cannot see, hear, taste, feel, or smell anything (obviously you still will be able to but your mind will know what to do at this point). Without your senses, your mind isn't grounded in reality and will wander, losing all ideas of time or human instinct. Without them, you will think of things as an intelligent being and not as a human. No emotions are tied into it as they are all physical components of the human body, just thinking.

After doing that for awhile I can honestly say you will find no difference between a dream, a memory of that dream, and a memory of something that "really" happened. You'll understand that proof of your existance is instantaneous. You can write down the past and you may even remember it to a degree, but the only thing you can account for actually happening is what you're doing right now. Later you and someone else might reflect on the moment but how do you know that person is really there? You'll never be able to have the same sense perception that they do, you just assume they think and respond to things just like you. There's 6.4 billion people in the world, and with that comes the territory of 6.4 billion alternate realities. To some people the world is a dark hopeless place, to others it is nearly perfect yet they are all seeing the same thing.

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Mate you need a day out even more than I do. At least open a window or pull the curtains. ;D

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I get out all the time, I came up with that stuff when I was home for 3 days because everyone else was busy.

Dreams are another thing that are fascinating.

You can pop all the shrooms or take all the acid hits you want, you won't get anything the quality of your dreams.

2 nights ago I had a dream that Mike Myers was chasing me after seeing the new halloween and then my entire city turned into a swamp. If someone had a trip and said that happened, I would never believe them. Since it was a dream it's not hard to believe at all.

The fact that most people don't even unlock all of their mind in a lifetime is unbelievable.

it just goes to show that the more you know, the more you know that you know nothing. :)

cool click here Kkisser. +298

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Mathematics and the invention of the Unit and number are undoubtedly feats of human ingenuity. Numbers and text are man's two greatest and most complex inventions. However, the number system and the formulae associated with it is flawed.

For example, the space race. Why did it take so long to reach space and the moon etc. Because the number system we have in place is flawed, Take pi for example. To most people that complete second and third level education this is the most exact numerical figure they will ever deal with. However, in the space race, when pi was utilised in an attempt to reach the moon it was found that the implementation of pi would result in the spaceship ending up thousands of miles in the wrong direction.
Or the common "TAN" function on a scientific calculator. Log tables, textbooks, all educational publications preach that the Tangent of 45 degrees = 1. However play with this function enough and it will alter, the calculator will eventually start showing up a different figure. Why? because the numerical system and its formulae conflict, they dont 100% equate.They may suffice our needs, such as construction, common calculation and estimation, but they certainly do not meet the requirements necessary for operating outside of out own enviroment

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I think Hitmandonny wins the award for the man I least expected to understand calculus and advanced mathematics award.

Just goes to show you can't judge a person by their avater ;)

I owe you another in 24

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Um i got a pretty good understanding of most things,

HahA the photo is it? ya i look dumb thats for sure :)

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

Ok this a problem for the more curious amongst you Punisher etc but it is always said that the universe is infinite in size.

I however disagree with this as being scientifically impossible and I'm wondering who agrees with me?

If we believe the scientific model that the universe started from a Big Bang, then literally at the beginnning there was nothing. Now when the universe exploded into existence it began to expand according to science.

Now here's my problem. If something starts from somewhere, i.e has a beginning it can never be infinite in size or any other way, just not possible.

You cannot expand yourself to infinity because you'd never get there. By expanding you'll always be bigger than you were before but not as big as you are soon going to be, kind of like Bigaru or Boxing Gorilla :P


Anyways imagine it with numbers, if you start at 1 you cannot ever get to infinity by adding numbers because there will always be a higher number out there.

If the universe started from a tiny fixed point and has expanded ever since it cannot be infinite in size. If you could trace it back 15 billion or so years to the beginning (according to science) and it would be so small you could hold it on an eye of a needle then how can it be infinite in size now?

Not possible, it's just very very very very F****** big but not infinite.


Thankyou. :soapbox:

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Well thats your theory, heres mine:



I believe that electrons and neutrons are to a cell, what planets & suns are to a solar system.
Solar systems are to a galaxy what cells are to an organ.


My point being, that everything is part of a bigger body. And that body is part of a bigger community of bodies, which inturn makes an entity that we can not comprehend.
IMO the chain only goes on. And on. And on and on and on... an Infinate chain of bodies & organisms.

whew, this infinity thing is beyond my understanding. Let's talk about how we love to watch boxing.hehehe.

The whole universe thing seems confusing, but i reckon if we got into a discussion into the weird decisions in boxing we'd be far more baffled.

I always enjoyed this song and I thought it fit perfectly into this conversation.

THE HIGHWAY MAN

I was a highwayman. Along the coach roads I did ride
With sword and pistol by my side
Many a young maid lost her baubles to my trade
Many a soldier shed his lifeblood on my blade
The bastards hung me in the spring of twenty-five
But I am still alive.

I was a sailor. I was born upon the tide
And with the sea I did abide.
I sailed a schooner round the Horn to Mexico
I went aloft and furled the mainsail in a blow
And when the yards broke off they said that I got killed
But I am living still.

I was a dam builder. Across the river deep and wide
Where steel and water did collide
A place called Boulder on the wild Colorado
I slipped and fell into the wet concrete below
They buried me in that great tomb that knows no sound
But I am still around..I'll always be around..and around and around and
around and around

I'll fly a starship across the Universe divide
And when I reach the other side
I'll find a place to rest my spirit if I can
Perhaps I may become a highwayman again
Or I may simply be a single drop of rain
But I will remain
And I'll be back again, and again and again and again and again..

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Originally Posted by BoxingGorilla

I always enjoyed this song and I thought it fit perfectly into this conversation.

THE HIGHWAY MAN

I was a highwayman. Along the coach roads I did ride
With sword and pistol by my side
Many a young maid lost her baubles to my trade
Many a soldier shed his lifeblood on my blade
The bastards hung me in the spring of twenty-five
But I am still alive.

I was a sailor. I was born upon the tide
And with the sea I did abide.
I sailed a schooner round the Horn to Mexico
I went aloft and furled the mainsail in a blow
And when the yards broke off they said that I got killed
But I am living still.

I was a dam builder. Across the river deep and wide
Where steel and water did collide
A place called Boulder on the wild Colorado
I slipped and fell into the wet concrete below
They buried me in that great tomb that knows no sound
But I am still around..I'll always be around..and around and around and
around and around

I'll fly a starship across the Universe divide
And when I reach the other side
I'll find a place to rest my spirit if I can
Perhaps I may become a highwayman again
Or I may simply be a single drop of rain
But I will remain
And I'll be back again, and again and again and again and again..

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Awesome song - and relevant. CC!

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Originally Posted by amat

Dreams are another thing that are fascinating.

You can pop all the shrooms or take all the acid hits you want, you won't get anything the quality of your dreams.

2 nights ago I had a dream that Mike Myers was chasing me after seeing the new halloween and then my entire city turned into a swamp. If someone had a trip and said that happened, I would never believe them. Since it was a dream it's not hard to believe at all.

The fact that most people don't even unlock all of their mind in a lifetime is unbelievable.

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Everyone uses a great deal of it either 90 or 98%. Even the primitive reptile part of the brain is used in modern humans so whatever the remaining unused portion is, whether it be just extra space for shock absorption or an extra part that can be used but not very easily, your guess is as good as mine. A dream is, IMO, the brain simulating life whether you want to have input into it or not. The fact that the human brain is nearly capable of going thru the motions of life without a conscious willful person behind it is really odd.

Obviously dreams won't have proper physics or very logical events (from a real life perspective) but the difference between completely lucid dreams and being "awake" is negligible. At certain points, it's possible to have a completely lucid dream that you either control mostly of what happens (the other stuff is subconscious stuff that just shows up) or not only do you control exactly what you do (all 5 sense work and you either know you're dreaming or are completely aware in the dream state as if it were real), but you also tap into your subconscious to the degree that you know what it's thinking and you can think faster than it by knowing what it's gonna insert into your dream before it happens. I've had several lucid dreams, very few mostly controlled ones, and about 2 or 3 completely aware of everything going on in my mind dreams. You ever jump or wake up right before the alarm or loud sound of something hits your ears? My guess is you just somehow know the sound is on its way but the speed required for the brain to get that information and react to it faster than it takes the speed of sound (750ish mph) to travel a few inches or feet is unbelievable.

I have horrible sweating fits at night. I can lay nude in front of a fan with no blankets and the window open and wake up drenched in sweat.

It's the result of a medication and it is terrible. Bad Dreams too.

Every time i get ill i have a recurring nightmare. I can recall having it since i was maybe three years of age. I cant remember much except for the colour of the nightmare and the sound. Weird?

that's your subconscious. maybe there was a time when you were sleeping and something bad happened. it was saved in your subconscious memory.

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Originally Posted by brucelee

that's your subconscious. maybe there was a time when you were sleeping and something bad happened. it was saved in your subconscious memory.

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Dunno but its interesting. Nightmares are a good way of indicating if i'm stressed, sick etc.

i have also these dreams since childhood. In one of my dreams, I am picking coins. Then, I also have this recurring dream that I am going up to the sky through a stair.Sometimes, I fly. don't know what those dreams mean but I usually feel light and happy every time I wake after those dreams.

My friend a psychologist keeps urgin me to record all my dreams for her studies. But i started to forget and she was able to tell that i was making them up from prvious patternns!

so I must be making up those dreams. I have read somewhere that when someone dreams about flying, it means he wants to have sex.hehehe.

I don't really no much about it. Sometime id like to get one of those dream interpretation books, but i don't have the inclination at the moment.

The big bang theory is incompatible with an infinte universe. It is widely accepted nowdays that the universe is not infinite, it was discredited a long time ago by a logical thought experiment.

It was assumed some time ago that the universe was infinite, this was because if it wasn't infinite, then it would collapse in on itself due to gravity. So it was postulated that the universe was infinite (and also almost uniform in distribution to prevent to much variance in mass at different regions, which would also cause many smaller collapses).

However, IF the universe was infinte in size AND unifrom, then the sky as we look at it would be INFINITELY bright. The explanation for this is that if you consider imaginary spherical shells of all different sizes with earth at the centre of them, and the surface area of each of these shells is determined by 4*pi*radius(squared) (radius being the unifrom distance of the shell fromthe earth) : Then, since the universe must be uniform, then the amount of stars on each shell must be proportional to
the distance from earth (i.e. the shells radius) squared.

Following on from this, when you take into account the physical relationship that the intensity of radiation decreases inversely proportional to the distance from the source squared(i.e. once again the radius of the shell squared), then it must be concluded that the amount of radiation coming from each shell must be equal, no matter how far away the shell is. Since the amount of radiation coming from each shell is finite, and that there are an infinite number of shells, then the radiation wacking the earth every second would be infinte.


The big bang theory originally came about to counter this by trying to explain the fact the universe is expanding, and not collapsing in on itself as it would if it were finite.

However, since then, even crazier shit have been hypothesized (but not proved) such as anti-gravity to take into account the expanding universe.

the question is how finite is the universe?where does it stop? if it is finite then it is improper to call it "universe".

Think of the universe as a bunch of marbles (galaxies). Those marbles can move in any direction and there's almost no limit to where they can move. Because of their existance tho, space has to curve around them or the physics aspect would be off and it would be unbearable pressure making life or the moving of anything nearly impossible. It can expand and contract with the movement of galaxies but at any given time it does have a definite size that is too large to be measured by humans. Like I said before, this edge wouldn't physical exist but it is more or less a spot of high gravity where you can't move any further.

Yeah, there's loads of crazy shit when you look into general relativity and all that. Truth is, the universe doesn't work as simply as we see everyday things happen, when you take into account giant masses and the invariance of the speed of light. Even if the universe is finite, you would never actually be able reach the 'edge' of it, it is thought if you set out in a 'straight' line and kept going indefinitely, you could end up where you started due to curved space and all that.

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Originally Posted by Bomp

Yeah, there's loads of crazy shit when you look into general relativity and all that. Truth is, the universe doesn't work as simply as we see everyday things happen, when you take into account giant masses and the invariance of the speed of light. Even if the universe is finite, you would never actually be able reach the 'edge' of it, it is thought if you set out in a 'straight' line and kept going indefinitely, you could end up where you started due to curved space and all that.

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I'm not a fan of string theory, but I believe einstein was on the right track when he had relativity and most of the space-"time" stuff.

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Originally Posted by Kev

Ok this a problem for the more curious amongst you Punisher etc but it is always said that the universe is infinite in size.

I however disagree with this as being scientifically impossible and I'm wondering who agrees with me?

If we believe the scientific model that the universe started from a Big Bang, then literally at the beginnning there was nothing. Now when the universe exploded into existence it began to expand according to science.

Now here's my problem. If something starts from somewhere, i.e has a beginning it can never be infinite in size or any other way, just not possible.

You cannot expand yourself to infinity because you'd never get there. By expanding you'll always be bigger than you were before but not as big as you are soon going to be, kind of like Bigaru or Boxing Gorilla :P


Anyways imagine it with numbers, if you start at 1 you cannot ever get to infinity by adding numbers because there will always be a higher number out there.

If the universe started from a tiny fixed point and has expanded ever since it cannot be infinite in size. If you could trace it back 15 billion or so years to the beginning (according to science) and it would be so small you could hold it on an eye of a needle then how can it be infinite in size now?

Not possible, it's just very very very very fucking big but not infinite.




Thankyou. :soapbox:

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BUMP! Not sure if this poster is still here, But I dig the topic!

Where I would question is this partial statement: If something starts from somewhere, i.e has a beginning it can never be infinite in size

I disagree. Having a beginning isn't synonymous with having an ending. So for those who feel the universe will one day tear/rip apart or contract after expanding--they could say there is no Infinite universe. Simply because they hypothesize an ending.

However if the universe expands from any point (and never cease in motion) that right there IMO is a pretty good definition of infinity. In other words it isnt the size of the univere as much as its activity: its moving in all directions & accelerating at that!

Infinity: a number greater than any assignable quantity or countable number.

Since we have no system of assigning an end goal, point or fixture of our existence in the universe contained in something we call space. Space itself is infinite and will continue its journey of creating a place where any existing form of matter no matter how intelligent it becomes--will never reach that fixture- cause it is ever expanding!:cool:

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Originally Posted by Kev

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Originally Posted by miles

Its just another Bilbo argument. Bilbo, you have no way of knowing how large the universe is so your suggestion is faulty. ;)

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I realise I have no way of knowing how big it is but logically it cannot be infinite can it?

If it started from a single point, and both science and religion agree that it did then how can it be infinite?

If you start at 1 and begin counting you will NEVER get to infinity will you. Why is this any different? You start from an atom (actually smaller) sized but rapidly expanding universe, it's always getting bigger.

If it's getting bigger it CANNOT be infinite.

Simple logic my Korean friend. 8)

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Againm my question deals specifically with certain sentences and not the entire post, I quote: If you start at 1 and begin counting you will NEVER get to infinity will you.

I see the same thing from a different perspective. I would word it like this: If you start at 1 and begin counting you will NEVER get to infinity because infinity has no end point.


BUMP! Not sure if this poster is still here, But I dig the topic!

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Originally Posted by TyBuff

The one problem I see with your theory is that you are saying that infinite is an individual number ie 5737027593. From what I have learned in my math classes is that infinite is not an individual number, it is just a way of saying a number larger than what we can imagine. Like someone already said there is always a number larger than whatever number you can come up with.

At least mathematically speaking.

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That's how I see it!

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Originally Posted by BoxingGorilla

The edge isn't physical but the gravity around that area would prevent you from moving any further in that direction. Pun

I see.


Really, I guess it doesn't make a difference. We are not capable of getting anywhere close to the edge of the universe and reporting back to anyone so it is infinite as far as humans are concerned.

If Pi is infinite then I'd bet that the universe is as well. What good is an infinite number in a finite universe?

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The edge isn't physical but the gravity around that area would prevent you from moving any further in that direction.<<--How I think of the edge. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Punisher136

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Originally Posted by TyBuff

The one problem I see with your theory is that you are saying that infinite is an individual number ie 5737027593. From what I have learned in my math classes is that infinite is not an individual number, it is just a way of saying a number larger than what we can imagine. Like someone already said there is always a number larger than whatever number you can come up with.

At least mathematically speaking.

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Here's the thing with numbers, their only purpose is to help us understand the world around us. Let's say 100 was the biggest number we'd need to use to measure anything. We could add 1 to that to make number 101 but that number would have no use other than being a number. The same thing goes for the really small numbers. After so many places right to the decimal, there's no value in that number. Like .00000000000000000000000001 may have a purpose somewhere in our field but several places down the line its value in the real world realistically becomes 0 as nothing that small currently exists or is measureable.

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I can't say I define numbers (symbols to define them) as some would say; an invention. IMO it is an internal system that allows anything with consciousness to account for its surroundings.
My example is my girlfriends cat. that fur ball IMO has no clue of math, but it knew how to figure out some of her kittens were missing. meaning it can comprehend amassing and the opposite-losing what she had.

The marvel of the Arabic numeral system IMO proves it is not an invention. Now Roman numeral system was an invention that proved faulty.
To add, subtract, computational, to divide, to multiply, summarize fractions are not inventions rather a means in which our brains reason & or perceive as a result of our eternal creator endowing us with the ability to account to amass.
It is a skill acquired depending on the civilization in question.
Our numeral system with placements using just the symbols of 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 allows us to determine a dosage of medicine or how to send a satelite into space is beyond symbols, into something I know blows my mind like calculus.

And I love math's symmetry. When I see examples like:
1x1 : 1

11x11 : 121

111x111 : 12321

111x111 : 1234321
https://youtu.be/nsfMtbb6Ws4

This IMO is proof we humans have raised our level of thinking to comprehend numbers aren't just symbols to add or subtract. We've learned we can make formulas, determine medicinal dosage, hypothesize where to launch a satellite----and it gets there!!!;D
so if we can't find an end number in our minds, chances are we won't find an end number to the universe as in 999 quintillion miles away.
Somehow math and the universe are tied together. To understand our universe one has to have some understanding of math.
To learn our table of elements shows what happens when a single proton or electron is added or subtracted is more proof that math isnt an invention of man.
So smoothly flowing that allows us to learn gases, liquids, solids, minerals, oh the beauty of math symmetry!

https://youtu.be/uPkEGAHo78o

I'll end on this note- one person whom I follow from a spiritual perspective (religion) impressed upon me that if we were to have a conversation with the messiah, on how we were created (his/her) language would be closer to calculi than English, Arabic etc.