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Re: Ono's guide to building muscle - Biceps
That's a myth Lyle.
Lighter weights - more reps myth has reared it's ugly head again :D
To be honest it's something i was told when i originally started training. Anyway it's a dirty lie :mad:
See below....
Fat Loss & Weight Training Myths
"Performing lighter weight with more repetitions (15-20 reps, 20-30 reps, or 20-50 reps) does not burn more fat or tone (simultaneous decrease of fat and increase muscle) better than a heaver weight with moderate repetitions (8-12 reps)"
Actually that page busts quite a few myths...It's worth checking out.[/quote]
I dont know about toning and all that. But light weights and more reps DOES alot to help muscle endurance amiright or am i left?
also, are big triceps a hinderance? Because since i've been working my triceps using the pulldowns, they really increased in size.[/quote]
You're right. That's how you increase muscluar endurance.
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Re: Ono's guide to building muscle - Biceps
Quote:
Originally Posted by
p4pking
Isolating any one muscle group is rarely beneficial towards any athletic pursuit.
True but the best way to build a total body of good muscles is to isolate the muscles during your workout. The thing is that you have to pair muscle groups together during your workout but on each exercise you isolate one muscle group at a time.
And on off days/cardio days you lightly work all muscles by swimming or something like that.
As for triceps they are an extending muscle and not a contracting muscle and therefore when it comes to punching then powerful triceps are a big help but they cannot be the ONLY strong muscle you have in your punch because you punch with your whole body.
IMO your core muscles are the most important abs and back...without them you can't build up your legs or upperbody as much as you can with that base of support for the weight to sit on
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Re: Ono's guide to building muscle - Biceps
Lactic Acid, is the by product of the proteins Ameno Acids waste, your Biulding Blocks.
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Re: Ono's guide to building muscle - Biceps
Lyle all muscles cotract whether Abduct or adduct they all contract.
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Re: Ono's guide to building muscle - Biceps
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lyle
Quote:
Originally Posted by
p4pking
Isolating any one muscle group is rarely beneficial towards any athletic pursuit.
True but the best way to build a total body of good muscles is to isolate the muscles during your workout. The thing is that you have to pair muscle groups together during your workout but on each exercise you isolate one muscle group at a time.
And on off days/cardio days you lightly work all muscles by swimming or something like that.
As for triceps they are an extending muscle and not a contracting muscle and therefore when it comes to punching then powerful triceps are a big help but they cannot be the ONLY strong muscle you have in your punch because you punch with your whole body.
IMO your core muscles are the most important abs and back...without them you can't build up your legs or upperbody as much as you can with that base of support for the weight to sit on
Yeh i agree core strength is very important. Especially in competition. That's why aggressive fighters (like ricky hatton) can struggle when moving up in weight (especially if they have to do it quickly). Their core strength isn't at the level of a naturally bigger fighter.....in most cases.
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Re: Ono's guide to building muscle - Biceps
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Scrap
Lyle all muscles cotract whether Abduct or adduct they all contract.
I'm saying when you extend your arm is when the triceps are doing the work and the biceps are relaxed. Ergo the triceps are a muscle group essential to extending your arms and the biceps are essential to contracting your arms and therefore the triceps would be more important to punching.
Hey working past "the burn" is what Ah-nold said is what builds muscles....who am I to argue with him??? Go watch 'Pumping Iron'
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Re: Ono's guide to building muscle - Biceps
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lyle
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Scrap
Lyle all muscles cotract whether Abduct or adduct they all contract.
I'm saying when you extend your arm is when the triceps are doing the work and the biceps are relaxed. Ergo the triceps are a muscle group essential to extending your arms and the biceps are essential to contracting your arms and therefore the triceps would be more important to punching.
Hey working past "the burn" is what Ah-nold said is what builds muscles....who am I to argue with him??? Go watch 'Pumping Iron'
Actually for punching I believe the arms should be brought along as one unit, not neglecting any area.
Then work on the more important ares like shoulders and chest.
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Re: Ono's guide to building muscle - Biceps
Correct Donny, the Triceps couldnt work without the Biceps balancing the action and vice versa like everything its a balancing act
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Re: Ono's guide to building muscle - Biceps
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lyle
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Scrap
Lyle all muscles cotract whether Abduct or adduct they all contract.
I'm saying when you extend your arm is when the triceps are doing the work and the biceps are relaxed. Ergo the triceps are a muscle group essential to extending your arms and the biceps are essential to contracting your arms and therefore the triceps would be more important to punching.
Hey working past "the burn" is what Ah-nold said is what builds muscles....who am I to argue with him??? Go watch 'Pumping Iron'
He also said that a pump is better than an orgasm ;D
Anyway it's not. You could achieve a burn by curling a tin of beans 100 times.
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Re: Ono's guide to building muscle - Biceps
Isn't the point of doing high rep exercises and high intensity to improve your lactic acid threshold and improve the ability to remove lactic acid from your muscles? If you don't do any high repetition work your going to get sore very quickly. Like why many gym rats can hardly do 100 body weight squats in a row.
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Re: Ono's guide to building muscle - Biceps
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Salty
Isn't the point of doing high rep exercises and high intensity to improve your lactic acid threshold and improve the ability to remove lactic acid from your muscles? If you don't do any high repetition work your going to get sore very quickly. Like why many gym rats can hardly do 100 body weight squats in a row.
You don't need to improve your lactic acid threshold and you don't need to improve you're body's ability to remove it. It's not as detrimental as once thought. Infact endurance training will improve the capacity to use lactic acid as a fuel during exercise.
So Lactic Acid is actually used as fuel by your body. lactic acid (for ref)
Muscle cells convert glucose/glycogen to lactic acid and it is then used for energy (by the mitochondria).
Endurance training increases the mass of the muscle mitochrondria, which in turn lets you burn more lactic acid.
See:
Gina Kolata suggests more endurance training: “Running longer and longer distances, for example, increases the mass of [an athlete’s] muscle mitochondria, letting them burn more lactic acid and allowing the muscle to work harder and longer.” Almost as an afterthought she adds, “Just before a race, coaches often tell athletes to train very hard in brief spurts.”
That should explain why you don't see many gym rats who can do 100 body squats. Endurance athletes tend to have more slow twitch muscle fibers. Slow twitch muscle fibers have more mitochondria.
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Re: Ono's guide to building muscle - Biceps
Go back and read the Biochemistry of Exercise,then come back and tell us it again.
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Re: Ono's guide to building muscle - Biceps
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Re: Ono's guide to building muscle - Biceps
I know where youre coming from ono as regards Lactic Shuttle as regards Boxing everything is working and the reproduction is working overtime thats my problem will pm you.
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Re: Ono's guide to building muscle - Biceps
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Scrap
I know where youre coming from ono as regards Lactic Shuttle as regards Boxing everything is working and the reproduction is working overtime thats my problem will pm you.
Nice one mate
I shall have a look.
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Re: Ono's guide to building muscle - Biceps
u ever gonna get around to making the back thread ono? or was this the last of the last
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Re: Ono's guide to building muscle - Biceps
Quote:
Originally Posted by
southpawed
u ever gonna get around to making the back thread ono? or was this the last of the last
Yeh i will be doing. I'm going away to spain tomorrow tho so it'll have to wait til i get back.
:)
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Re: Ono's guide to building muscle - Biceps
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ono
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Salty
Isn't the point of doing high rep exercises and high intensity to improve your lactic acid threshold and improve the ability to remove lactic acid from your muscles? If you don't do any high repetition work your going to get sore very quickly. Like why many gym rats can hardly do 100 body weight squats in a row.
You don't need to improve your lactic acid threshold and you don't need to improve you're body's ability to remove it. It's not as detrimental as once thought. Infact endurance training will improve the capacity to use lactic acid as a fuel during exercise.
So Lactic Acid is actually used as fuel by your body.
lactic acid (for ref)
Muscle cells convert glucose/glycogen to lactic acid and it is then used for energy (by the mitochondria).
Endurance training increases the mass of the muscle mitochrondria, which in turn lets you burn more lactic acid.
See:
Gina Kolata suggests more endurance training: “Running longer and longer distances, for example, increases the mass of [an athlete’s] muscle mitochondria, letting them burn more lactic acid and allowing the muscle to work harder and longer.” Almost as an afterthought she adds, “Just before a race, coaches often tell athletes to train very hard in brief spurts.”
That should explain why you don't see many gym rats who can do 100 body squats. Endurance athletes tend to have more slow twitch muscle fibers. Slow twitch muscle fibers have more mitochondria.
Sorry man I guess I was ill advised, just had a quick read through of one site and it suggested a pH buffer such as Bicarbonate soda for better endurance in muscles. Anyone tried this? Could be mighty benefitial if it works.
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Re: Ono's guide to building muscle - Biceps
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Salty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ono
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Salty
Isn't the point of doing high rep exercises and high intensity to improve your lactic acid threshold and improve the ability to remove lactic acid from your muscles? If you don't do any high repetition work your going to get sore very quickly. Like why many gym rats can hardly do 100 body weight squats in a row.
You don't need to improve your lactic acid threshold and you don't need to improve you're body's ability to remove it. It's not as detrimental as once thought. Infact endurance training will improve the capacity to use lactic acid as a fuel during exercise.
So Lactic Acid is actually used as fuel by your body.
lactic acid (for ref)
Muscle cells convert glucose/glycogen to lactic acid and it is then used for energy (by the mitochondria).
Endurance training increases the mass of the muscle mitochrondria, which in turn lets you burn more lactic acid.
See:
Gina Kolata suggests more endurance training: “Running longer and longer distances, for example, increases the mass of [an athlete’s] muscle mitochondria, letting them burn more lactic acid and allowing the muscle to work harder and longer.” Almost as an afterthought she adds, “Just before a race, coaches often tell athletes to train very hard in brief spurts.”
That should explain why you don't see many gym rats who can do 100 body squats. Endurance athletes tend to have more slow twitch muscle fibers. Slow twitch muscle fibers have more mitochondria.
Sorry man I guess I was ill advised, just had a quick read through of one site and it suggested a pH buffer such as Bicarbonate soda for better endurance in muscles. Anyone tried this? Could be mighty benefitial if it works.
a soda that can eliminate the burn?
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Re: Ono's guide to building muscle - Biceps
They experimented maybe 20 years ago on this with alka seltsar. It was for a short time, it all came about with the runner Sidney Marie who having idegestion one day was given Alka Seltzer as a relief. They found his times were much faster than he had ever done and that it broke down lactic acid, the only drawback was it could give you a Heart attack. Lovely ;D
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Re: Ono's guide to building muscle - Biceps
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Scrap
They experimented maybe 20 years ago on this with alka seltsar. It was for a short time, it all came about with the runner Sidney Marie who having idegestion one day was given Alka Seltzer as a relief. They found his times were much faster than he had ever done and that it broke down lactic acid, the only drawback was it could give you a Heart attack. Lovely ;D
Honestly? So did they ever come around to actually making a fizzy drink that could help out your endurance in the sense of processing the lactic acid? LOL, im thinkin like some magic tonic that cornerman give their fighters in the 12th round, and all of a sudden the guy comes out like superman.
And also i never knew alka seltzer messes with your heart. How does that work?
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Re: Ono's guide to building muscle - Biceps
Bicarbonate of soda isn't an actual soda :p, it can be used as a pH buffer however. As when consumed (I have read 0.3g per kg of bodyweight) an hour before the exercise it resists changes in the pH level of your muscles. This is one of the main limitations of your muscle called acidisosis of the muscles (don't quote me on that) which can drop your pH level a great deal. So basically they reach a point where they can't operate, hence the burning feeling when your doing those punch out drills, or hill sprints. Buffering will halt the on set of this, don't really want to get into the chemistry of it (just had an exam on this stuff today :p). I might give it a try one day although don't really want to be eating 20grams of that stuff, would be horrible.
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Re: Ono's guide to building muscle - Biceps
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Salty
Bicarbonate of soda isn't an actual soda :p, it can be used as a pH buffer however.
As when consumed (I have read 0.3g per kg of bodyweight) an hour before the exercise it resists changes in the pH level of your muscles. This is one of the main limitations of your muscle called acidisosis of the muscles (don't quote me on that) which can drop your pH level a great deal. So basically they reach a point where they can't operate, hence the burning feeling when your doing those punch out drills, or hill sprints. Buffering will halt the on set of this, don't really want to get into the chemistry of it (just had an exam on this stuff today :p). I might give it a try one day although don't really want to be eating 20grams of that stuff, would be horrible.
HAHA.. -_- Excuse the ignorance..
So does what Scrap said about the alka seltzer hold any weight and does it act like a buffer in the same way the bicarbonate does? I dunno it just sounds interesting that alka seltzer can have those effects. But the whole heart attack deal just puts me off of it. lol.
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Re: Ono's guide to building muscle - Biceps
Hi,
Place your arms behind your back and bring each arm close to the soulder as possible alternatively.This is a terrific exercise for bicpes as well as for developing rapid hand movements that aids in blocking,deflecting etc,I don't recomend weights but if you add wiehgts please dont use more than a pound or two.http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...ons/icon14.gif
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Re: Ono's guide to building muscle - Biceps
I don't see why we should try to eliminate the brachialis. Since it partly runs beneath the biceps, if it increases in size it's going to make the biceps stick out more anyway right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ono
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Von Milash
The guy in the video is performing a pull up, not a chin up. Regardless of what the title says.
Chin-up - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia specifically "Chin-ups are often incorrectly referred to as pull-ups. The term
pull-up is traditionally used when the exercise is performed with a
pronated grip"
pronation /pro·na·tion/ (
-na´shun) the act of assuming the prone position, or the state of being prone.
Applied to the hand, the act of turning the palm backward (posteriorly) or downward, performed by medial rotation of the forearm. Applied to the foot, a combination of eversion and abduction movements taking place in the tarsal and metatarsal joints and resulting in lowering of the medial margin of the foot, hence of the longitudinal arch.
The guy in the video looks like he's performing a chin-up, not a pull-up, to me... his arms ARE supinated, not pronated. Perhaps they corrected the video since you last looked at it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ICB
i've seen the best results doing chin ups and weighted chin ups, there much better than any weights IMO and you see faster results, at least in my case i did.
They seem like something better for beginners to me, for building the 'foundation' at least, sort of like doing squats and deadlifts for hamstrings even though you might isolate them with leg curls later on.
To be honest, even though I've always enjoyed and still do enjoy biceps... ever since I found out what lats were and was actually able to feel mine after doing chins a while, I enjoy them way more than I ever did biceps. Maybe it was seeing that one pic of Bruce Lee's lats, but they're a way cooler muscle, they're like bird's wings the same way traps are like a cobra's hood.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ono
Incorrect. Chin ups primarily incorporate your lats. I think you mean pull ups. Biceps are involved when performing pull-ups (not chin ups)
I think he's right actually, chinups' supinated grip has the biceps in a much stronger position. I think pull-ups might actually be the ones that rely on lats more. The elbows tend to be more 'out' when you do them pronated and I think that stresses the lats more or something. Not sure why.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ono
To build muscle, you have to recruit as many muscle fibres as possible (into the exercise). While pull ups and chin ups are excellent compound movements they do not completely isolate the biceps anywhere near as effectively as the 3 mentioned exercises.
It's true you have to stimulate as many as possible, and it's true that it doesn't isolate them... why do isolation exercises necessarily stimulate the most muscle fibres? Initially, you might be blocked from unleashing your full strength because the biceps may not be the first to fail (often in chins, it's your grip or maybe your lats that fail first) but once the strength of weaker areas catch up it should be getting stressed too. Since you can use heavier weights with compound exercises it's easier to microload them. With curls you have to make pretty big jumps in weight, it can be sort of stressful and you have to vary the rep range a bit more to build up to that, doing higher reps before making the next jump, or using tricky stuff like forced reps or negatives to make that jump. It's sort of like the same problem you get curling dumbbells versus curling barbells, the jumps.
I think having a compound/isolation combo's the coolest because the isolation lets you more directly measure if youre strength is improving or not, and you can always do it after the compound if you've still got juice left but can't keep doing the compound because some other area got weak first. I think it's called a 'post-exhaustion' or something.
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Re: Ono's guide to building muscle - Biceps
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tyciol
I don't see why we should try to eliminate the brachialis. Since it partly runs beneath the biceps, if it increases in size it's going to make the biceps stick out more anyway right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ono
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Von Milash
The guy in the video is performing a pull up, not a chin up. Regardless of what the title says.
Chin-up - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia specifically "Chin-ups are often incorrectly referred to as pull-ups. The term
pull-up is traditionally used when the exercise is performed with a
pronated grip"
pronation /pro·na·tion/ (
-na´shun) the act of assuming the prone position, or the state of being prone.
Applied to the hand, the act of turning the palm backward (posteriorly) or downward, performed by medial rotation of the forearm. Applied to the foot, a combination of eversion and abduction movements taking place in the tarsal and metatarsal joints and resulting in lowering of the medial margin of the foot, hence of the longitudinal arch.
The guy in the video looks like he's performing a chin-up, not a pull-up, to me... his arms ARE supinated, not pronated. Perhaps they corrected the video since you last looked at it?
They seem like something better for beginners to me, for building the 'foundation' at least, sort of like doing squats and deadlifts for hamstrings even though you might isolate them with leg curls later on.
To be honest, even though I've always enjoyed and still do enjoy biceps... ever since I found out what lats were and was actually able to feel mine after doing chins a while, I enjoy them way more than I ever did biceps. Maybe it was seeing that one pic of Bruce Lee's lats, but they're a way cooler muscle, they're like bird's wings the same way traps are like a cobra's hood.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ono
Incorrect. Chin ups primarily incorporate your lats. I think you mean pull ups. Biceps are involved when performing pull-ups (not chin ups)
I think he's right actually, chinups' supinated grip has the biceps in a much stronger position. I think pull-ups might actually be the ones that rely on lats more. The elbows tend to be more 'out' when you do them pronated and I think that stresses the lats more or something. Not sure why.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ono
To build muscle, you have to recruit as many muscle fibres as possible (into the exercise). While pull ups and chin ups are excellent compound movements they do not completely isolate the biceps anywhere near as effectively as the 3 mentioned exercises.
It's true you have to stimulate as many as possible, and it's true that it doesn't isolate them...
why do isolation exercises necessarily stimulate the most muscle fibres? Initially, you might be blocked from unleashing your full strength because the biceps may not be the first to fail (often in chins, it's your grip or maybe your lats that fail first) but once the strength of weaker areas catch up it should be getting stressed too. Since you can use heavier weights with compound exercises it's easier to microload them. With curls you have to make pretty big jumps in weight, it can be sort of stressful and you have to vary the rep range a bit more to build up to that, doing higher reps before making the next jump, or using tricky stuff like forced reps or negatives to make that jump. It's sort of like the same problem you get curling dumbbells versus curling barbells, the jumps.
I think having a compound/isolation combo's the coolest because the isolation lets you more directly measure if youre strength is improving or not, and you can always do it after the compound if you've still got juice left but can't keep doing the compound because some other area got weak first. I think it's called a 'post-exhaustion' or something.
Just to answer your questions/points:
1: I'm not all for eliminating the Brachialis. I was saying it would be more beneficial to incorporate an exercise that thoroughly stimulates the bicep rather than an exercise where the brachialis takes over before the bicep can be fully stimulated (like the barbell curl). Once you have fully stimulated the bicep, then it would be beneficial to specifically stimulate the brachialis, as like you said, the brachialis runs partially beneath the biceps brachi, thus pushing the bicep up which creates the illusion of bigger arms. Hope that clears it up.
2: I stand corrected, the literature i was using has a few incorrect terminologies in it (quite a dated textbook). Specifically the difference between chin ups and pull ups. Apologies all around. Luckily it's not important the thread ;D
3: Isolation exercises don't stimulate the most muscle fibers overall. But they stimulate the most muscle fibers within the targetted area. Isolation exercises are useful when you want maximum growth within a targetted area. Like the biceps for example.
