Question about a fighters "prime" / "past his best"

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Originally Posted by hitmanhatton

you can still be on of the best in the world and be past your own best

for example in a football anology

thierry henry is not quite as quick and prolific as he once was but youd still rather have him in your team than emile heskey !!

as for mosley he was past his best when he fought cotto but pushed him close so cotto deserves credit as mosley was still a very good fighter, his performance against mayorga would suggest he has slipped further than him

in conclusion you dont have to be at YOUR best to be one of the best in the world

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But then how do you determine when someone is showing THEIR very best?

Was Kostya at his best against Phillips? Was Mosley STILL at his best when first losing to Forrest? Or does the loss signal he was past it?

Have old boys like Calzaghe and Hopkins showed better form in their younger days?

I'm not sure. :-\

well for hopkins yes he was faster and knocked people out which he doesnt tend to do these days

calzaghe maybe but it was never really noticed as it wasnt against big names ...

joe is saying he wants to retire soon and that every training camp becomes harder than the last, why do you think that is

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Originally Posted by hitmanhatton

well for hopkins yes he was faster and knocked people out which he doesnt tend to do these days

calzaghe maybe but it was never really noticed as it wasnt against big names ...

joe is saying he wants to retire soon and that every training camp becomes harder than the last, why do you think that is

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But Hopkins is now fighting BETTER fighters. Maybe that explains his lack of recent stoppage wins. By his own admission the Pavlik win was the BEST performance of his career.

Maybe it's the same for Calzaghe?

The bad hands seem the most logical excuse for the lack of recent KOs. Of course this, like the mental training camp struggles, is most likely due to age. But there hasn't really been a dip in his performance.. he is arguably better.

Maybe this prime stuff is really a load of bollocks. Unless it is OBVIOUS a fighter has clearly slipped badly.

some things can increase with age or at least dont go away as quickly but eventually the body will stop cooperating

maybe it all just depends on the fighters style and how much relies on physical gifts which can diminish

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN

In the case of Tszyu, he was past his prime and best when he fought Hatton.
We all got excited with his return against Mitchell, but he was inactive for 2 years with a shoulder injury prior to that fight and then to confront the young gun Hatton pushing age 36 was simply to much for him. No shame in losing to Hatton either.
He looked awful at the weigh in (drawn and gaunt) i knew then he would lose.
Age and inactivity will get boxers in the end as it does all sportsmen.
Do we say Berbick was better than Ali? Marciano better than Louis? or Camacho better than Leonard?
I doubt there would be anyone on this forum who would argue in the affirmative.
Mosley got past Mayorga in the finish but 7-8 years ago he would have finished him in less than 5 rounds.

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Those guys were all considered way past their best. Nobody currently has Mosley P4P - because everyone can see he's past his best.

Tszyu was still ranked P4P the 3rd BEST fighter in the WORLD.

Tszyu was EXPECTED to win by the majority.

What were the EXCUSES made when he lost eight years earlier to Phillips?

(i'm not Kostya bashing.. just he's an easy example to use ;))

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First of all i still don't see how anyone ranked Tszyu that high, he was inactive for 2 years and then KO's Mitchell a fighter he had already beaten a few years earlier. No.3 ? Shit, even i was surprised by that. Yes, Tszyu was expected to win, but people simply forgot he was 35 pushing 36 and they underestimated his opponent, as did Tszyu by the way. As for the Phillips loss, it was an aberration, he should have pulled out of the fight due to illness (a gastro problem saw him enter the ring at closer to 137-138lb) some 8-10 lb lighter than Phillips on the night . Still he lost, he cameback and unified the division but the Fatman along with age and injury got him in the end.
Tszyu might be the easiest example, but he is the best example in recent years of how things turn for a fighter from being in their prime which in his case was 1998-2002 to being finished.

No matter what the excuses are Oscar was shot, spent, old and tired against Pacquiao. It was a tragedy unfolding before my eyes watching De la hoya humiliate himself in the ring. "prime"/"past his best" we saw the best example ever as the career of Oscar De La Hoya went down the poo shooter.
He got old against Forbes and was a grandfather by this fight.

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Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN

No matter what the excuses are Oscar was shot, spent, old and tired against Pacquiao. It was a tragedy unfolding before my eyes watching De la hoya humiliate himself in the ring. "prime"/"past his best" we saw the best example ever as the career of Oscar De La Hoya went down the poo shooter.
He got old against Forbes and was a grandfather by this fight.

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I agree entirely.

Remember though, Oscar was already considered "past his best" (as your Forbes comment highlights) and was not P4P ranked by anyone (apart from the divs at Sky Sports). ;)