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and I love you for the same reason. ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Yes? :-\Quote:
Originally Posted by OumaFan
Anyone that thinks Pac beat Marquez should rightly rate Pac above him. Anyone that thinks Marquez beat Pac cannot possibly rate Pac above him at this current time.
I love P4P because it's so stupid.
Weak.Much work at Pacs Gloryhole lately??Quote:
Originally Posted by James_TejaWhat happen to your Margocheato sig? :-\Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'NawlinsWonder why HBO would be motivated to do that for their biggest meal ticket ??? Odd really.Your knee bending for Pac is tiresomeQuote:
Originally Posted by James_Teja
The better question is where did you hide Marquez cloths,and how long ya been out of the closet.
;DQuote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMickand I love you for the same reason. ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by FensterYes? :-\Quote:
Originally Posted by OumaFan
Anyone that thinks Pac beat Marquez should rightly rate Pac above him. Anyone that thinks Marquez beat Pac cannot possibly rate Pac above him at this current time.
I love P4P because it's so stupid.
:beat:
Listen, Shades, I think outside the box. One day you'll realise Fenster is a genius :cool:
You guys are Just sucking JMM Dick too much!!! JMM's just beat a Young Fat & inexperienced Juan Diaz who was schooled already by Not so Great Campbell. It's no Bragging rights!! LOok at the majority of Predictions before the fight?? JMM was the Clear Favorite. That's how I Predicted anyway. I Picked JMM by 10 rd TKO & giving only about 3 rds Max to Diaz.
Diaz is not a Step up for JMM. I considered it a notch higher than Pac's win over the other Diaz(David). BUt Pac showed a lot more with the DLH DOMINATION! It's a step up fight for Pac the reason he's 2-1 underdog into the fight. JMM didn't Dominate the light punching Juan. You have to remember that JMM lose some rds. Compared to Pac who never lose a RD against David Diaz & DLH.
So you guys JMM Fans needs to chill out. JMM is a little bit behind on Bragging rights. Calling Floyd was the right step for JMM & I will support him for that fight. BUT I have advise for JMM, "DON'T OVER PRICE YOURSELF THIS TIME!!!".
Are you sure Eastside banned you for being right? I don't see how you can get on other people for nuthugging when you are doing it yourself. Like PAC you just fear Mighty Mike.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacdbest2
killer, it ain't worth it, I think we've established that Pac-fans are incapable of deciphering irony. aww fuck it let's keep at it anyway.;DQuote:
Originally Posted by killersheepAre you sure Eastside banned you for being right? I don't see how you can get on other people for nuthugging when you are doing it yourself. Like PAC you just fear Mighty Mike.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacdbest2
& it is a shame you're so brutally attacking the internationally recognized reputation of pacdbest2, he's clearly an unbiased boxing fan with no affiliation to any particular fighter, a sharp almost Nostradamus like mind, and a fantastic literary expert on grammar & where to best use capital letters. shame on you killersheep, shame on you! :cool:
I think people are getting a little carried way here. It was a fantastic fight and Marquez did brilliantly to fight his way back into the fight and get the knockout but it doesn't jump him above the man who beat him just three fights or so ago.
Plus apart from knocking him out didn't Nate Campbell beat Juan Diaz more convincingly than Marquez?
The knockout was stunning but Marquez was getting pummeled in those early rounds whereas Nate just dominated Juan Diaz from the get go.
And Juan Diaz wasn't even in the top 10 p4p so how can Marquez become number 1 now?
Margarito's win over Cotto was bigger, as was in turn, Mosely's win over Margarito, why isn't Mosely number 1? (And no I don't think Mosely is p4p number 1 just making a point, Mosely's KO over Margarito was a far bigger shock than Marquez beating Diaz)
Marquez was I believe at least, the betting favourite over Diaz and he won in fine style after being dominated.
But he didn't look unbeatable at least not early and I don't see how that destruction was better than the slaughter Pacquaio put on Oscar.
And if you are going to try and take away Manny's credit by saying Oscar was weight drained then what about B Hop? Both his biggest wins in recent times over Pavlik and Tarver coincided with his opponents putting on career worst performances yet nobody takes his credit away.
Manny is number 1 going into his fight with Hatton.
Your mom.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Thank you Master Bilbo for enlightening the hordes of delusional Mighty Mike bandwagoners... You're the real MASTER... ;)
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacdbest2
I'm with you, I think JMM should NOT challenge PAC anymore (well he called out PBF instead of PAC, that's a good sign) for there's a greater chance that he will be KO'ed this time around specially at higher weights, like for example 140 lbs.
JMM faced life and death in his last 2 fights against Casa and Juan Diaz while PAC had an easy time slaying giants like David Diaz and Hoya... The added beatings JMM received from Casa and JuanD softened his body more and facing PAC for the 3rd time will finally make his body crumble to pieces...
.
You know, I like Pac... but some of you guys tend to get a little carried away. (See below)...
Even after all that, I think it's a pretty close call between Pac and JMM for #1 p4p. I could see arguments either way. But to just dismiss JMM's claims is just not right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacdbest2
I'm not dismissing JMM's Achievement. I rated him as No 2 P4P. But Those guys rating him as no 1 were all wrong! Pac has done more PERIOD!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanYou know, I like Pac... but some of you guys tend to get a little carried away. (See below)...
Even after all that, I think it's a pretty close call between Pac and JMM for #1 p4p. I could see arguments either way. But to just dismiss JMM's claims is just not right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacdbest2
Well, in all honesty, it's hard for me to be unbiased on this one. You see... Pac went to straight to #1 p4p in MY book when he beat the shit out of De La Hoya. But in all fairness, De La Hoya WAS a shot fighter by that time. I guess the only way to settle this argument once and for all would be to have Pac-JMM III, but hopefully at a lower weight than 140, where both are at their peak.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacdbest2I'm not dismissing JMM's Achievement. I rated him as No 2 P4P. But Those guys rating him as no 1 were all wrong! Pac has done more PERIOD!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanYou know, I like Pac... but some of you guys tend to get a little carried away. (See below)...
Even after all that, I think it's a pretty close call between Pac and JMM for #1 p4p. I could see arguments either way. But to just dismiss JMM's claims is just not right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacdbest2
Pacdbest2 it takes 2 to negotiate a fight and Pac was just as responsible as JMM for the delay in the rematch. JMM was the title holder at that time so he had an excuse for wanting the larger purse. Just like Pac now holds that right based on the win in their last fight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaddoBoxerQuote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Thank you Master Bilbo for enlightening the hordes of delusional Mighty Mike bandwagoners... You're the real MASTER... ;)
.
Very nice how you fail to admit how shot a boxer ODLH was/is in order to solidify your Pac hugging. Bhop also benefited in similar fashion by choosing plodding stylistic fighters and fighting them after they either exited the buffet line or liposuction treatment (lol)
What? Before that fight I reasoned out that PAC has a chance to defeat Hoya coz PAC has speed, quickness, youth, stamina and heart in his favor and adding Hoya is old and partially shot... But many laughed and totally write off Manny coz they said Hoya is just too big for PAC... They're saying PAC only accepted the fight because of the huge money... That's my story before that fight...Quote:
Originally Posted by Addicted to_boxingQuote:
Originally Posted by SaddoBoxerQuote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Thank you Master Bilbo for enlightening the hordes of delusional Mighty Mike bandwagoners... You're the real MASTER... ;)
.
Very nice how you fail to admit how shot a boxer ODLH was/is in order to solidify your Pac hugging. Bhop also benefited in similar fashion by choosing plodding stylistic fighters and fighting them after they either exited the buffet line or liposuction treatment (lol)
To be fair, before the fight I said it was pointless because if ODLH won it would be because he was just too big, and if PAC won it was because ODLH was too old. Guess what, PAC weighed more on fight night.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaddoBoxerWhat? Before that fight I reasoned out that PAC has a chance to defeat Hoya coz PAC has speed, quickness, youth, stamina and heart in his favor and adding Hoya is old and partially shot... But many laughed and totally write off Manny coz they said Hoya is just too big for PAC... They're saying PAC only accepted the fight because of the huge money... That's my story before that fight...Quote:
Originally Posted by Addicted to_boxingQuote:
Originally Posted by SaddoBoxer
Very nice how you fail to admit how shot a boxer ODLH was/is in order to solidify your Pac hugging. Bhop also benefited in similar fashion by choosing plodding stylistic fighters and fighting them after they either exited the buffet line or liposuction treatment (lol)
I'm not a nut hugger of any fighter. You can argue how shot Oscar was all you like but he had a better recent resume than both Casamayor and Juan Diaz going into the Pacquaio fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Addicted to_boxingQuote:
Originally Posted by SaddoBoxerQuote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Thank you Master Bilbo for enlightening the hordes of delusional Mighty Mike bandwagoners... You're the real MASTER... ;)
.
Very nice how you fail to admit how shot a boxer ODLH was/is in order to solidify your Pac hugging. Bhop also benefited in similar fashion by choosing plodding stylistic fighters and fighting them after they either exited the buffet line or liposuction treatment (lol)
Oscar's previous 3 fights were a dominating brutal beatdown of Ricardo Mayorga who gave Shane Mosely 10 times more trouble than Margarito did, a split decision loss to the world's greatest p4p and undefeated fighter and an easy routine win over Steve Forbes.
Casamayor had lost virtually every single round to Santa Cruz in possible the worst robbery of the last decade, and had then been battered about the ring by Michael Katsidis before finally pulling out a stoppage. He hadn't looked good in about 5 years.
Juan Diaz had already been completely beaten down and dominated by veteran Nate Campbell prior to coming in to the Marquez fight.
So there's no question of saying Oscar was more 'shot' going into the fight with Pacquaio as his recent performances had been better than both Casa and Juan Diaz.
Furthermore whether you like it or not Pacquaio was given the victory of Juan Manuel Marquez last year, who also has a loss recorded against him over Chris John.
Therefore it's simply impossible to make a claim that Marquez should be the p4p number 1 fighter in the world unless you think your own subjective opinion on who wins a very close fight means more than an officially sanctioned result.
Anyone who tries to argue that the Ring Magazine should have Marquez as number 1 in the world I just cannot take seriously.
Marquez is the P4P No 1 as far as I'm concerned. He has proven himself as good as Manny Pac and he has cleaned out 135 the way it should be done.
I'm sorry Bilbo but I dont agree with your logic... JMM is a 35 year old fighter with 16 years experience and many of wars, he just absolutely crushed in brutal fashion a peak prime 135 pound relentless pressure fighting whirlwind who 3 fights ago was considered toast of the division even though Casamayor got a XMAS present against Santa Cruz...
a year ago 99% considered Diaz the Champ of the division, Marquez beat him at his own game knocked him down 2x and sparked him out cold... Diaz has never been stopped before.
Against Casamoyar a 1st ballot Hall Of Famer and can argue his resume is as good as Delahoya's in terms of who he's fought and beat... JMM stopped him, 1st man ever to do that too...
So JMM moves up in weight like Pac, Beats the ring #1 champ, Pac fought a pathetic title holder, Pac fights a zombie version of Delahoya, JMM beats the former #1-2 fighter at 135 in Diaz.
The proof is in the puddind
JMM is the real McCoy, no doubt about it#1 unless Pac can beat Hatton, if not JMM stays #1
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
I completely agree that JMM is the real McCoy he is an awesome fighter no doubt, but you can't put him at number 1 in the p4p rankings off the back of that win in place of the guy who holds a win over him just a couple fights ago.
And everything you said about Diaz applies pretty much to De La Hoya. Oscar had never been beaten up, only stopped once bymiddleweight king B Hop and had just lost a split decision to the p4p's best.
Marquez knocked Diaz out but he wasn't the first to beat him, Nate Campbell dominated Juan Diaz from the first bell and beat him far easier than Marquez did.
Unless you believe Nate is a top 10 p4p fighter your argument holds no logic to me.
Yes Marquez is great, yes he's unquestionably number 2 in the world but he can't leapfrog a man who beat him a year ago and then leapt not one, not two, but three weight classes and dominated and destroyed a living legend in De La Hoya.
Imo you are only detracting from Marquez's brilliant acomplishments by trying to make claims that cannot be backed up.
Marquez lost to Pacquaio in an extremely close fight hence he cannot be p4p number 1 in the world until he either avenges that defeat or Manny loses.
That's just the way boxing works. Manny defeated a fighter in Oscar that no boxing expert in the world expected him to do, whilst Marquez won a fight with Juan Diaz in which he was the slight favourite going in anyway seeing as Diaz had already been completely manhandled by a 36 veteran only two fights before.
If Manny loses to Hatton I'd have no problem putting Marquez as number 1 in the world but until then Manny is still the man.
I should add here that imo it's emotion that is causing people to react like this.
MArquez was getting overwhelmed in the early rounds by Diaz and so it made his comeback and subsuequent destruction of Diaz that much sweeter, it also happened to be a hugely competitive and exciting fight.
Pacquaio on the other hand completely outclassed and dominated Oscar from the very first bell so people are less impressed and just conclude that Oscar was weight drained and shot.
That's not fair imo, what more could Manny have done? He totally owned Oscar, beat him down and made him quit on his stool, there's simply nothing more he could have done to win more impressively hence how in the world can he drop DOWN from number one in the world?
Pac has not lived up to quality of Competiton.. Usually you have dogged Delahoya time and time again, so I find it weird that you are over hyping manny's win over him, especially at 147 were Delahoya hadnt fought in 10 years and ended up weighing 2 lbs less than Pac going into the ring:confused:
Manny was weight 147 fight night when he was at 130, so its not like uncharted waters for him, DLH only shot was going to be weight advantage EVERYONE guessed Oscar was going to weigh 157-160 that night, even his former trainer Steward said that was routine when he fought 147 10 years ago...
JMM beating Casamayor was just as impressive as Pac over Delahoya, compare resumes and activity levels of those 2 and Id give joel the edge. Casamayor wasnt a cash cow like DLH so you wouldnt think of them being comparable career wise, but they are.
Diaz vs Diaz, not even a comparison... a split desicion lost to campbell certainly pails in comparison to a brutal KO from accumulation..
In a 3 fight vacuum, I see it as Pac had a controversial desicion that over 80% of boxinf writers and analysts gave the nod to JMM, couple that with JMM level of competition over the next 2 fights eclipses Pac by a landslide... That circus win over a freeze dried Delahoya isint better than JMM moving up in weight, beating the ring Champion of the 135 pound beating then #2 guy both by Brutal KO...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Im also of the opinion that pacquiao deserves to be ranked number 1 not on who is the better fighter as even after 2 fights the jury is well out on that, but what pacman has acheived in the sport.
But marquez did to a very very good fighter what no man has got anywhere near to doing yet and though naturally being a hatton fan i hate when people claim (insert name) beat certain fighters because they were shot (in rickys case castillo, tszyu) de-la hoya was a shadow of the man that dominated at 147 a decade or so back and only put on 2pounds between the weigh in and the fight which pretty much suggests something was very wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
It has nothing to do with me either liking or disliking a fighter it's all about the difference between objectivity and subjectivity.
I am objective, Pacquaio was the officially declared winner of the fight between him and Marquez and won by decisive knockout over 6 weight world champ and first ballot Hall of Famer Oscar De La Hoya and moved up 3 weight classes to do so.
These results mean that objectively speaking Pacman is p4p number 1 in the world.
You are expressing nothing more than your opinion. In your opinion, the fight between Marquez and Pacquaio should have gone to Marquez, and again in your opinion Manny's win over De La Hoya wasn't as impressive as Marquez's own victory over Juan Diaz.
So what you are in effect claiming, is that it better to use your opinon, to evaluate the merits of respective fighter achievements than it is to go judge acomplishments by actual official fight results.
This is just an illogical stance.
How do you suppose to convince the Ring Magazine that instead of basing their rankings on the official fight outcomes and traditional longstanding rating criteria in favour of basing their rankings on the subjective opinion of casual fans in internet boxing forums?
How is more accurate or good for boxing would it be if the Ring were able to pick and choose which judging decisions they agreed with or not, and which fighter's in their subjective opinion had the harder fight on the night against certain opposition?
It would descend the whole p4p ratings into a farce.
Manny beat Juan Manuel Marquez in a close fight, and then moved up 3 weight classes to beat 6 weight world champ and boxing legend Oscar De La Hoya.
Marquez lost to Manny Pacquaio in a close fight then moved up one weight class and defeated a young exciting former champion in Juan Diaz.
Those are the facts, any subjective embelishments you wish to add or subtract from those facts remain just your opinion, which has no more merit than the opinion of anyone else.
Rankings need to be based on objectivity not subjectivity.
Silly sod. In boxing, "facts" are often bullshit.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
It has nothing to do with me either liking or disliking a fighter it's all about the difference between objectivity and subjectivity.
I am objective, Pacquaio was the officially declared winner of the fight between him and Marquez and won by decisive knockout over 6 weight world champ and first ballot Hall of Famer Oscar De La Hoya and moved up 3 weight classes to do so.
These results mean that objectively speaking Pacman is p4p number 1 in the world.
You are expressing nothing more than your opinion. In your opinion, the fight between Marquez and Pacquaio should have gone to Marquez, and again in your opinion Manny's win over De La Hoya wasn't as impressive as Marquez's own victory over Juan Diaz.
So what you are in effect claiming, is that it better to use your opinon, to evaluate the merits of respective fighter achievements than it is to go judge acomplishments by actual official fight results.
This is just an illogical stance.
How do you suppose to convince the Ring Magazine that instead of basing their rankings on the official fight outcomes and traditional longstanding rating criteria in favour of basing their rankings on the subjective opinion of casual fans in internet boxing forums?
How is more accurate or good for boxing would it be if the Ring were able to pick and choose which judging decisions they agreed with or not, and which fighter's in their subjective opinion had the harder fight on the night against certain opposition?
It would descend the whole p4p ratings into a farce.
Manny beat Juan Manuel Marquez in a close fight, and then moved up 3 weight classes to beat 6 weight world champ and boxing legend Oscar De La Hoya.
Marquez lost to Manny Pacquaio in a close fight then moved up one weight class and defeated a young exciting former champion in Juan Diaz.
Those are the facts, any subjective embelishments you wish to add or subtract from those facts remain just your opinion, which has no more merit than the opinion of anyone else.
Rankings need to be based on objectivity not subjectivity.
Things that supposedly happened looking at the paper results, did not actually happen. You read too much into official verdicts rather that the way things really were. It's like reading history off of a census registrar.
JT is perfectly right to argue the way he does IMO.
Newsflash dude, PFP is not based on any other thing except opinion..
I also stated JMM beating Casamayor was just as good maybe even better that Pac/DLH. Marquez moved up in weight to beat THE RING champion at 135(Casamayor) who had a resume comparably to Delahoya's!!!!
Casamayor was fighting at that weight comfortably for years and is active compared to a part time shell of a fighter who hadnt fought 147 for a friggin decade... Why cant you get that through your head?? name me a fighter who dropped down in weight after 10 years and was successful beating a guy 5 years younger in his prime considered #1 in the world... Oscar's only chance would have been to cut to 147, rehydrate to 160... There isint an fan or expert in the world that didnt see that as the winning equation....
Pac was bigger than Delahoya, Pac had rehydrated to 147 plenty before when he fought at 130.... So why is that such a monumental achievement beating a guy you who you were faster, stronger, bigger, younger in your prime, out of his prime??? Explain Bilbo please!!!! I dont care about that 6 division champion crap all irrelevant, I care for the here and now, what happened in December because thats what matters....
By that logic of the past, than JMM is even better, because he beat Casamayor who beat Campbell and Campbell beat Diaz... So JMM has wins over both Diaz and Casamayor, by KO to boot
As far as the Diaz's go Jmm's victory over a prime young A rated fighter in Juan is more impressive than Pac's handpicked mediocre win over David Diaz...
Facts may be bullshit in your opinon Miles but they are still the official decision!Quote:
Originally Posted by milesSilly sod. In boxing, "facts" are often bullshit.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
It has nothing to do with me either liking or disliking a fighter it's all about the difference between objectivity and subjectivity.
I am objective, Pacquaio was the officially declared winner of the fight between him and Marquez and won by decisive knockout over 6 weight world champ and first ballot Hall of Famer Oscar De La Hoya and moved up 3 weight classes to do so.
These results mean that objectively speaking Pacman is p4p number 1 in the world.
You are expressing nothing more than your opinion. In your opinion, the fight between Marquez and Pacquaio should have gone to Marquez, and again in your opinion Manny's win over De La Hoya wasn't as impressive as Marquez's own victory over Juan Diaz.
So what you are in effect claiming, is that it better to use your opinon, to evaluate the merits of respective fighter achievements than it is to go judge acomplishments by actual official fight results.
This is just an illogical stance.
How do you suppose to convince the Ring Magazine that instead of basing their rankings on the official fight outcomes and traditional longstanding rating criteria in favour of basing their rankings on the subjective opinion of casual fans in internet boxing forums?
How is more accurate or good for boxing would it be if the Ring were able to pick and choose which judging decisions they agreed with or not, and which fighter's in their subjective opinion had the harder fight on the night against certain opposition?
It would descend the whole p4p ratings into a farce.
Manny beat Juan Manuel Marquez in a close fight, and then moved up 3 weight classes to beat 6 weight world champ and boxing legend Oscar De La Hoya.
Marquez lost to Manny Pacquaio in a close fight then moved up one weight class and defeated a young exciting former champion in Juan Diaz.
Those are the facts, any subjective embelishments you wish to add or subtract from those facts remain just your opinion, which has no more merit than the opinion of anyone else.
Rankings need to be based on objectivity not subjectivity.
Things that supposedly happened looking at the paper results, did not actually happen. You read too much into official verdicts rather that the way things really were. It's like reading history off of a census registrar.
JT is perfectly right to argue the way he does IMO.
Ignoring the fact that in this instance the Pacquaio Marquez fight was extremely close and in no way shape or form a robbery or wrong decision, just a fight that could have gone either way, please can you give any evidence to substaniate your frankly ridiculous idea?
Is Nikolay Valuev the current WBA heavyweight world champ? Yes he is. Did most people think Evander Holyfield beat him? Yes they did. Does this mean Evander is the WBA champ? No he isn't.
The official result IS what counts.
You may disagree with it, you may even think its a robbery, but a serious rating system like that put in place by the Ring Magazine MUST adhere to the official results, else it has no credibility at all. It's merely subjective opinion.
And the Pacquaio Marquez fight was a fight that could have gone either way, in the event the man from the Phillipines won so the Ring have NO CHOICE but to make him p4p number 1 in the world.
Your opinon has no merit whatsoever.
Mick provided a revealing stat, that over 80% of boxing writers gave Marquez the nod over PAC... so yea I would consider it a questionable desicionQuote:
Originally Posted by BilboFacts may be bullshit in your opinon Miles but they are still the official decision!Quote:
Originally Posted by milesSilly sod. In boxing, "facts" are often bullshit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Things that supposedly happened looking at the paper results, did not actually happen. You read too much into official verdicts rather that the way things really were. It's like reading history off of a census registrar.
JT is perfectly right to argue the way he does IMO.
Ignoring the fact that in this instance the Pacquaio Marquez fight was extremely close and in no way shape or form a robbery or wrong decision, just a fight that could have gone either way, please can you give any evidence to substaniate your frankly ridiculous idea?
Is Nikolay Valuev the current WBA heavyweight world champ? Yes he is. Did most people think Evander Holyfield beat him? Yes they did. Does this mean Evander is the WBA champ? No he isn't.
The official result IS what counts.
You may disagree with it, you may even think its a robbery, but a serious rating system like that put in place by the Ring Magazine MUST adhere to the official results, else it has no credibility at all. It's merely subjective opinion.
And the Pacquaio Marquez fight was a fight that could have gone either way, in the event the man from the Phillipines won so the Ring have NO CHOICE but to make him p4p number 1 in the world.
Your opinon has no merit whatsoever.
Everything you said is just your opinion JT, Pacquaio BEAT Marquez, so he's p4p number 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
You can argue as much as you like that you think he shouldn't have won it but the FACT is that he did.
That's why the Ring will have Pacquaio as number 1 in the world because their rankings are an attempt at restoring objectivity and credibility to boxing and not allowing personal subjective opinon to hold sway.
You say the rankings are based on opinion, in large case the Ring magazines are not.
Do you think that in order to have Manny as number 1 you have to agree that he deserved to win the fight with Marquez? Or that he would win a rematch? Or that Juan Diaz was a better opponent than Oscar De La Hoya?
No you don't have to agree with ANY of that but Manny still HAS to be number 1 because he BEAT Juan Manuel Marquez according to the OFFICIAL result.
I have no problem with you thinking Marquez should have won the fight against Pacquio, I have no problem with you thinking his performances since have been better and that he fought better opposition.
But the ONLY way he gets to become p4p number 1 is if Manny loses or retires, that's just the way it works.
I agree with Bilbo in some ways. I haven't read anything he's posted on this page because he's so long winded but the earlier stuff I agreed with. Anyway its kind of pointless to argue about, there's no one guy that's so far ahead that he's almost an obvious choice, its just opinion.
Addicted to Boxing- Why was it Pacquaio's fault as much as JMM's that the rematch didn't happen earlier. Everything I've ever read about it had Nacho Beristain negotiating his way out of the fight. Clearly JMM wasn't scared but I've always heard it was Nacho's fault, so enlighten us.
Nothing you have said convinces me otherwise. Except that you are a silly bugger who likes stats. And in the boxing world stats can be manipulated. Marquez still has claim as the best fighter in the world. Pac really isn't though, IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboFacts may be bullshit in your opinon Miles but they are still the official decision!Quote:
Originally Posted by milesSilly sod. In boxing, "facts" are often bullshit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Things that supposedly happened looking at the paper results, did not actually happen. You read too much into official verdicts rather that the way things really were. It's like reading history off of a census registrar.
JT is perfectly right to argue the way he does IMO.
Ignoring the fact that in this instance the Pacquaio Marquez fight was extremely close and in no way shape or form a robbery or wrong decision, just a fight that could have gone either way, please can you give any evidence to substaniate your frankly ridiculous idea?
Is Nikolay Valuev the current WBA heavyweight world champ? Yes he is. Did most people think Evander Holyfield beat him? Yes they did. Does this mean Evander is the WBA champ? No he isn't.
The official result IS what counts.
You may disagree with it, you may even think its a robbery, but a serious rating system like that put in place by the Ring Magazine MUST adhere to the official results, else it has no credibility at all. It's merely subjective opinion.
And the Pacquaio Marquez fight was a fight that could have gone either way, in the event the man from the Phillipines won so the Ring have NO CHOICE but to make him p4p number 1 in the world.
Your opinon has no merit whatsoever.
So the Ring should just post their opinions right?Quote:
Originally Posted by milesNothing you have said convinces me otherwise. Except that you are a silly bugger who likes stats. And in the boxing world stats can be manipulated. Marquez still has claim as the best fighter in the world. Pac really isn't though, IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboFacts may be bullshit in your opinon Miles but they are still the official decision!Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
Ignoring the fact that in this instance the Pacquaio Marquez fight was extremely close and in no way shape or form a robbery or wrong decision, just a fight that could have gone either way, please can you give any evidence to substaniate your frankly ridiculous idea?
Is Nikolay Valuev the current WBA heavyweight world champ? Yes he is. Did most people think Evander Holyfield beat him? Yes they did. Does this mean Evander is the WBA champ? No he isn't.
The official result IS what counts.
You may disagree with it, you may even think its a robbery, but a serious rating system like that put in place by the Ring Magazine MUST adhere to the official results, else it has no credibility at all. It's merely subjective opinion.
And the Pacquaio Marquez fight was a fight that could have gone either way, in the event the man from the Phillipines won so the Ring have NO CHOICE but to make him p4p number 1 in the world.
Your opinon has no merit whatsoever.
So after the Hopkins Calzaghe you would have thought it ok had they decided that Hopkins should have won the fight and so made him number 2 in the world whilst Calzaghe really lost they dumped him out of the top 10?
That would be fine right because it's just opinion that counts. :rolleyes:
What if the Ring editor was one of the minority who felt Oscar beat Floyd Mayweather so the Ring Rankings reflected that with Oscar as p4p number 1 and Floyd dropped to fourth?
Or should the Ring reverse only the decisions that you also disagreed with?
Totally irrelevant. We are talking Pac/ Marquez here. But you choose to interpret the data how you choose.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboSo the Ring should just post their opinions right?Quote:
Originally Posted by milesNothing you have said convinces me otherwise. Except that you are a silly bugger who likes stats. And in the boxing world stats can be manipulated. Marquez still has claim as the best fighter in the world. Pac really isn't though, IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
So after the Hopkins Calzaghe you would have thought it ok had they decided that Hopkins should have won the fight and so made him number 2 in the world whilst Calzaghe really lost they dumped him out of the top 10?
That would be fine right because it's just opinion that counts. :rolleyes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by milesTotally irrelevant. We are talking Pac/ Marquez here. But you choose to interpret the data how you choose.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboSo the Ring should just post their opinions right?Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
So after the Hopkins Calzaghe you would have thought it ok had they decided that Hopkins should have won the fight and so made him number 2 in the world whilst Calzaghe really lost they dumped him out of the top 10?
That would be fine right because it's just opinion that counts. :rolleyes:
How is that irelevent? You are making an argument that the Ring Magazine should completely change their precedent and from henceforth decide to rate opponents purely on their subjective opinion on who won a fight regardless of official results. So what happens when they decide that a result was wrong in a fight where you didn't think it was?
If the editor of the Ring Rankings decided that actually Oscar beat Floyd Mayweather and so made him number 1 what would be your take on that?
To say its irrelevent is to completely miss the point. Either the Ring rankings should be objective and based around official fight results or else they should be free to make up the list any way they feel with no regard for objective ranking.
You are arguing for nothing more than your personal opinion, but when trying to create a legitimate, credible p4p ranking system like the Ring Magazine has for many years then personal opinion cannot be the driving force.
If however you just want your own p4p list, like Setanta or Moono then go for it, put whoever you want as number 1, Pacquaio, Marquez or Mike Arnoutis, it's entirely up to you.
All I'm saying is that all rankings are open for interpretation. There is no accurate ranking, you should be open to that. A magazine interpretation is just one of many. Individual opinions mean just as much sometimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by milesTotally irrelevant. We are talking Pac/ Marquez here. But you choose to interpret the data how you choose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
How is that irelevent? You are making an argument that the Ring Magazine should completely change their precedent and from henceforth decide to rate opponents purely on their subjective opinion on who won a fight regardless of official results. So what happens when they decide that a result was wrong in a fight where you didn't think it was?
If the editor of the Ring Rankings decided that actually Oscar beat Floyd Mayweather and so made him number 1 what would be your take on that?
To say its irrelevent is to completely miss the point. Either the Ring rankings should be objective and based around official fight results or else they should be free to make up the list any way they feel with no regard for objective ranking.
You are arguing for nothing more than your personal opinion, but when trying to create a legitimate, credible p4p ranking system like the Ring Magazine has for many years then personal opinion cannot be the driving force.
If however you just want your own p4p list, like Setanta or Moono then go for it, put whoever you want as number 1, Pacquaio, Marquez or Mike Arnoutis, it's entirely up to you.
The Ring rankings arn't just a magazine though as they have immense prestige in the world of boxing even taking precedent over the alphabet belts.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesAll I'm saying is that all rankings are open for interpretation. There is no accurate ranking, you should be open to that. A magazine interpretation is just one of many. Individual opinions mean just as much sometimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by miles
How is that irelevent? You are making an argument that the Ring Magazine should completely change their precedent and from henceforth decide to rate opponents purely on their subjective opinion on who won a fight regardless of official results. So what happens when they decide that a result was wrong in a fight where you didn't think it was?
If the editor of the Ring Rankings decided that actually Oscar beat Floyd Mayweather and so made him number 1 what would be your take on that?
To say its irrelevent is to completely miss the point. Either the Ring rankings should be objective and based around official fight results or else they should be free to make up the list any way they feel with no regard for objective ranking.
You are arguing for nothing more than your personal opinion, but when trying to create a legitimate, credible p4p ranking system like the Ring Magazine has for many years then personal opinion cannot be the driving force.
If however you just want your own p4p list, like Setanta or Moono then go for it, put whoever you want as number 1, Pacquaio, Marquez or Mike Arnoutis, it's entirely up to you.
Especially in the last few years we've seen many fights announced as being for the Ring Championship, or the fighter being regarded by the Ring Magazine as p4p one of the best in the world.
It DOES has authority and significance and in that sense is an official ranking system, unlike for example the Boxing Talk rankings list or BBC's p4p lists which are generally shit.
Setanta for example have David Haye in their top 10, and Chris John at 8 presumably becuase they had the rights to screen his fight with Rocky Juarez.
The Ring rankings though are respected and carry weigh within the boxing world and hence cannot be based on mere personal opinion.
If you are talking about any other ranking body I couldn't care less who they have in their top 10 but the Ring magazine's rankings are supposed to restore credibility and objectivity to the question of 'who are boxing's best?'.
Mighty Mike without a doubt, no P4P list can be taken seriously without him at its pinnacle.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by milesTotally irrelevant. We are talking Pac/ Marquez here. But you choose to interpret the data how you choose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
How is that irelevent? You are making an argument that the Ring Magazine should completely change their precedent and from henceforth decide to rate opponents purely on their subjective opinion on who won a fight regardless of official results. So what happens when they decide that a result was wrong in a fight where you didn't think it was?
If the editor of the Ring Rankings decided that actually Oscar beat Floyd Mayweather and so made him number 1 what would be your take on that?
To say its irrelevent is to completely miss the point. Either the Ring rankings should be objective and based around official fight results or else they should be free to make up the list any way they feel with no regard for objective ranking.
You are arguing for nothing more than your personal opinion, but when trying to create a legitimate, credible p4p ranking system like the Ring Magazine has for many years then personal opinion cannot be the driving force.
If however you just want your own p4p list, like Setanta or Moono then go for it, put whoever you want as number 1, Pacquaio, Marquez or Mike Arnoutis, it's entirely up to you.
I do agree with Bilbo though, whilst I do think that Marquez is #1, the fact remains that The Ring should only do these rankings on actual fight results, although it does make exceptions for bizarre decisions that are basically robberies (see Humberto Soto & Librado Andrade's ratings actually going up after their fights with Lorenzo & Bute). However, even though I thought JMM won, there is no way that fight was a robbery, it was much too close for that. I do believe the rankings are done by committee anyway so that should make sure that the system is fair. Although anyone who somehow thought ODLH actually won against PBF, clearly doesn't actually know shit about boxing. If someone like that was in charge of The Ring then I think its legitimacy would be damaged. I do think JMM is #1, but for me I cant see how someone could complain about Pacquiao being #1.
Man i love this forum...
I am a die-hard pacfan (which pains me to admit that on this forum)
I read posts constantly, i just don't hit the reply button enough..
On Topic:
I have to go with Bilbo on this one, and not because i am a Pac fan. If the shoe was on the other foot and Marquez squeeked out that split decision during their last encounter and was ranked P4P #1. No matter how much i thought Pac won the fight i would have no basis saying Pacman deserves to be #1. Regardless of who we feel won a fight. The Rankings have to have some type of boundries. The case of Marg/Cotto/Mosely doesn't apply here. Its all speculation when it comes to Pac/JMM and the opponents they have faced. Neither party has faced the same opposition besides MAB. And some have MAB beating JMM. That is exactly why you can't use speculation on P4P when the two fighters you are comparing HAVE fought one another and one of those fighters has the "W" on his record. Whether you agree with it or not.
It all boils down to JMM "technically" lost to Pac. Putting JMM at #2 - Case Closed
Fuck the Ring.
We used to have our own Saddo P4P rankings. Wacko updated it regularly - unfortunately the rankings went with Wacko.
Someone restart the Saddo rankings. Lets see who the REAL fans think are on top P4P :cool: