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You're right Gary Lockett, Marco Antonio Rubio & Miguel Espino are far more worthy fights than Oscar De La Hoya at 154, Ricky Hatton & Juan Manuel Marquez :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
No one would give him shit about having an easy fight if he hadn't bailed on 3 in the past 6 months only to decide to fight a guy off the contender.
That not's entirely fair either. Prior to Lockett, he fought JT twice and the second time he went up five pounds to 165. He made a title defense against Gary Lockett and then he went up ten pounds to fight a top five p4p boxer in Bernard Hopkins. Since Hopkins, he only fought once against a top ten middleweight even if Rubio isn't a tremendous talent. I'll give him the pass on Espino if he fights a Williamsesque caliber fighter next. But, it's the last pass.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinYou're right Gary Lockett, Marco Antonio Rubio & Miguel Espino are far more worthy fights than Oscar De La Hoya at 154, Ricky Hatton at 147 & Juan Manuel Marquez at 147:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
No one would give him shit about having an easy fight if he hadn't bailed on 3 in the past 6 months only to decide to fight a guy off the contender.
Who had Rubio as a Top 10 Middleweight? I'm pretty sure The Ring didn't at the time. I give him a lot of respect for fighting Taylor, but let's be honest they picked Hopkins as a mark because a lot of people thought he looked past it in the Calzaghe fight, including those of us who thought he edged the fight. There is no excuse for the likes of Lockett, Rubio & Espino, not when there have been guys like Abraham & Williams begging him for a fight. I don't know if it's him or Top Rank but these guys don't want to risk him against Sergio Mora for christsakes.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratThat not's entirely fair either. Prior to Lockett, he fought JT twice and the second time he went up five pounds to 165. He made a title defense against Gary Lockett and then he went up ten pounds to fight a top five p4p boxer in Bernard Hopkins. Since Hopkins, he only fought once against a top ten middleweight even if Rubio isn't a tremendous talent. I'll give him the pass on Espino if he fights a Williamsesque caliber fighter next. But, it's the last pass.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinYou're right Gary Lockett, Marco Antonio Rubio & Miguel Espino are far more worthy fights than Oscar De La Hoya at 154, Ricky Hatton at 147 & Juan Manuel Marquez at 147:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
No one would give him shit about having an easy fight if he hadn't bailed on 3 in the past 6 months only to decide to fight a guy off the contender.
As for your points on Mayweather, I can't see how anyone can complain about Hatton. He was undefeated, already a world champion at the weight & Mayweather was coming down from LMW. I mean seriously? Would you expect him to come down 2 divisions? Marquez, I was not happy about, but if it was just a comeback fight then I would consider him more of a threat at the weight than Hlatshwayo or someone like that. But he will fight the Pacquiao/Cotto winner, if he doesn't I will be berating him as much as anyone.
I hear ya. I was responding to this part: "I've been critical of Williams of late, for dragging Martinez up to 160..." I agree there is a lot of BSing, but as I said it goes with the territory. I maintain that it would not have made any sense not make Martinez come up. You've got to try for every advantage and let egos take a back seat. Look what happened when ODLH wanted to make sure nobody would think he was picking on a smaller (Pac) man and didn't even rehydrate after weigh-in, and no I'm not saying he would have won, but still...Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinRead what I wrote. My problem is with them saying that they have to feed him big meals multiple times a day just to not go under the weight. If that was really the case they could easily have made 154. I have no problem with the fight being at 160 as long as it means they stop calling him a welterweight & acting like he's out of his weightclass he isn't. The way they act it wouldn't be busting his balls to make the weight because he's not a NATURAL middleweight. The evidence would seem to suggest he is. I just want them to cut the shit, I know he's a popular fighter, I like him a lot, but that doesn't mean he gets a pass on talking shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myk_Myk
Rantcatrat, Martinez is 5' 11", started at WW, and moved up to LM. Clottey is 5' 8", started at LW, and moved up to WW. It would have been unrealistic to ask Clottley to come up to 160. Obviously it wasn't for Martinez, as he took the fight!
There is an excuse for all of the fighters except Espino. Rubio was definitely a top ten middleweight at the time in Ring Magazine and it was immediately following Pavlik's horrible showing against Hopkins. I'm not saying Rubio was top level talent, but he was top ten and it is fair to expect an easier fight after a fighter loses for the first time. Would you expect Arreola to fight Vlad after losing to Vitali? Locket was the gimme fight he had after fighting Miranda and Taylor twice. There is nothing wrong with one easy fight per four fights. I'll admit there is no real excuse for Espino. My guess is the rumors about Pavlik's unfocused behavior are somewhat true and he needed a gimme fight to get him focused. However, that's still not an excuse. Listen, if Pavlik doesn't fight a tough fight after this Espino fight, I'll write him off.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinWho had Rubio as a Top 10 Middleweight? I'm pretty sure The Ring didn't at the time. I give him a lot of respect for fighting Taylor, but let's be honest they picked Hopkins as a mark because a lot of people thought he looked past it in the Calzaghe fight, including those of us who thought he edged the fight. There is no excuse for the likes of Lockett, Rubio & Espino, not when there have been guys like Abraham & Williams begging him for a fight. I don't know if it's him or Top Rank but these guys don't want to risk him against Sergio Mora for christsakes.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratThat not's entirely fair either. Prior to Lockett, he fought JT twice and the second time he went up five pounds to 165. He made a title defense against Gary Lockett and then he went up ten pounds to fight a top five p4p boxer in Bernard Hopkins. Since Hopkins, he only fought once against a top ten middleweight even if Rubio isn't a tremendous talent. I'll give him the pass on Espino if he fights a Williamsesque caliber fighter next. But, it's the last pass.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin
As for your points on Mayweather, I can't see how anyone can complain about Hatton. He was undefeated, already a world champion at the weight & Mayweather was coming down from LMW. I mean seriously? Would you expect him to come down 2 divisions? Marquez, I was not happy about, but if it was just a comeback fight then I would consider him more of a threat at the weight than Hlatshwayo or someone like that. But he will fight the Pacquiao/Cotto winner, if he doesn't I will be berating him as much as anyone.
Martinez is a career 154 guy. He has fought at 154 since the early 2000's. Fighting at 160 is definitely an advantage for Paul - that we can both agree on. We can also both give Martinez big time props for taking this fight at 160 because he's a 154 guy. Also, the fact that Martinez started at welterweight and is now fighting Paul at middleweight is even more testiment to the fact that the fight being at 160 is a big advantage for Paul.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myk_MykI hear ya. I was responding to this part: "I've been critical of Williams of late, for dragging Martinez up to 160..." I agree there is a lot of BSing, but as I said it goes with the territory. I maintain that it would not have made any sense not make Martinez come up. You've got to try for every advantage and let egos take a back seat. Look what happened when ODLH wanted to make sure nobody would think he was picking on a smaller (Pac) man and didn't even rehydrate after weigh-in, and no I'm not saying he would have won, but still...Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinRead what I wrote. My problem is with them saying that they have to feed him big meals multiple times a day just to not go under the weight. If that was really the case they could easily have made 154. I have no problem with the fight being at 160 as long as it means they stop calling him a welterweight & acting like he's out of his weightclass he isn't. The way they act it wouldn't be busting his balls to make the weight because he's not a NATURAL middleweight. The evidence would seem to suggest he is. I just want them to cut the shit, I know he's a popular fighter, I like him a lot, but that doesn't mean he gets a pass on talking shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myk_Myk
Rantcatrat, Martinez is 5' 11", started at WW, and moved up to LM. Clottey is 5' 8", started at LW, and moved up to WW. It would have been unrealistic to ask Clottley to come up to 160. Obviously it wasn't for Martinez, as he took the fight!
I'm not sure you understood the point I was making about Clottey. Williams offered to fight Clottey at 154 (not 160) after the Pavlik fight fell through. Clottey didn't accept the fight at 154. Clearly, Williams could have been able to make 154 if he offered to fight Clottey at 154 during the same time period. Yet, Williams wouldn't fight Martinez at 154? You pointed out the reason in your post - because it is to Paul's advantage to fight Martinez at 160 rather than 154.
No I understood perfectly. My point is it would have been pointless to offer Clottey a fight at 160; which is evidenced by the fact that he didn't even take the fight at 154. I'm sure Williams could have come down to 154 to fight either man. And I'm sure the Williams camp felt more comfortable about coming down to 154 for Clottey (who would have had to come up even then) than for the rangier framed Martinez; who has been at 154, as you said, since 200. The fact that Martinez did agree to come up to 160, proves that the Williams camp knows how play their cards, and my whole point is that he shouldn't be disparaged for doing so, excepting all the BS from his camp we've already discussed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
As for Pavlik it certainly does look bad, but then again on the surface of it, he had to fight to keep his belts. That article Diane posted makes it sound like they're still waiting for his hand to heal and even his camp looks to be unsure about his state. We'll just have to see what happens after this fight. If he and Williams both win, there should be no more excuses.
If Pavlik wasn't gonna be 100% for a Dec 5th fight with Williams then I'm happy it got scrapped. Win, lose or draw I want no excuses. I'm assuming when he steps in the ring on Dec 19 he'll be at about 70% to 80% which is more than enough to beat Espino but not Williams. He needs to get healthy first. I have no doubts if they win their next match they'll be sharing a ring come March/April.
On a side note, as a Pavlik fan I didn't like the idea of him having just one fight after the Hopkins debacle then jumping back into another super fight. Especially with that one fight coming way back in February. He needed 2-3 fights to get his confidence back IMO.
Damn BHop took Pavliks heart and mind because at 1 point he was taking on all comers from Taylor twice and Miranda, when he was considered dangerous and stepped up to fight the Executioner. Now he is taking on pretenders in what could be considered an even worst title reign then Taylor's. I hope he gets himself together before its too late because he is still young and talented.