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Great post Bilbo !Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Lyle - would you rather watch a boring card of boxing with a suit on, or an exciting stacked UFC card in you jeans and t-shirt ?
I know which i would rather watch, but then you are a fan of the Klits, so i guess i've answered my question really ;D
I think that overall MMA has actually helped boxing in a lot of ways. Dana White (UFC's president) structured the UFC to avoid all of the things that are rotten with boxing today. Instead of paying $50 for one fight you want to watch, you get multiple big, relevant fights per card. In the UFC, the best are CONSTANTLY fighting the best. There is no "Well I want a 60/40 split" or any of that crap. If you are the champ, you are fighting the #1 contenders. There are no easy fights in the UFC anymore.
I think the level of compedition the UFC has brought has actually helped boxing. It has put a ton of pressure on promoters to make the BIG fights happen and give the consumer more bang for their buck.
Of course an MMA guy will never have the handskills of a pro boxer, but thats because a pro boxer trains his hands 100% of the time. The MMA guy has to learn boxing, muay thai (punching/kicking/kneeing/elbowing), wrestling, BJJ. He has to learn to attack from many different positions and, conversely, defend from many different positions and defend so many different types of attacks.
For people who don't believe MMA fighting requires much skill, believe me when I tell you that you are just seeing the tip of the iceberg. I remember thinking boxing was boring as hell when I was a kid. I didn't understand it, why were these guys dancing around and throwing weak-looking punches at each other (jabs)? Why didn't they just run out and KO each other? Obviously that kind of ignorance wears off when you watch and learn more about the sport. Same thing in this case. What looks like two men rolling around on the ground actually involves a plethora of technique, skill and know-how.
I have never seen the appeal of MMA and Toney's recent conversion upset me a bit. Boxing is a far finer sport but unfortunately is losing out because of egos and an unwillingless to just get it on and fight. We have the Mayweather/Pac and Klitschko/Haye fights as prime examples. Stylistically boxing is the ultimate in contact sports (for me anyway), but the fans keep on getting short changed. I can understand why people like Bilbo are moving more towards MMA, but it's something I don't want to move towards. But boxing is getting harder to simply sit back and enjoy 'coz the fights just aren't happening. And for sure the undercards usually suck.
It's a shame really as boxing fans deserve better. It's becoming evermore sidelined except for the big fights.
Matty, not all boxing cards are boring and not all MMA cards are exciting. I enjoy watching SKILL, so while I can appreciate a GSP or Anderson Silva or Machida...I would much rather watch skilled boxers.
Yea mate i know not ALL boxing cards are boring, and in same breath ALL UFC cards are not full of great action. I was just intrigued by you comment that you prefer boxing to be 'classy' rather than class-less, which is how ya described MMA.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
If the fans turned up to UFC events dressed in whistle & flutes would that make it classy then ?
No, if MMA fans dressed to the nines it wouldn't make them classy. My issue with mma being "classless" is basically the sport itself is (in my view) at odds with what I consider gentlemanly or "sporting"...ie the hitting opponents as they are on the ground already KO'd....that's out of line IMO
Ahh right, i did wonder what ya meant by it.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Yes i remember on a few occasions ya mentioning about striking downed opponents and how wrong that is. Yes i agree with not being able to kick someone in the head when they are on the floor and your standing ( which is not allowed in UFC ) although if someone can intelligently defend themselves whilst on the floor then crack on imo. When you watch it closely not many fighters will lunge in and strike willy-nilly a downed opponent. Reason being alot of these guys are skilled BJJ practitioners and end a fight with a submission move - ala Anderson Silva v Sonnen recently - So many will be careful.
I do take on board what ya saying though ;)
I grew up watching boxing when it was mainstream and on tv almost every week on wide world of sports, now you never see boxing on regular tv and most fights are PPV if they are decent fights.
Along with that, I along with millions of other boys in school I also wrestled and my kids wrestled, with that I have an appreciation of what MMA fighters do. How many kids boxed in JR high or high school. I would think the number of boxers in schools would be very low if any at all. Wrestling is a sport known by everyone world wide from kids to their siblings, parents and grandparents that can be viewed and appreciated by all.
With that stated I would bet that 95% + of the people on this board have never put on a boxing glove yet alone actually boxed anyone in their life, compare that to how many kids and families have organized wrestling in their background against how many kids and families have boxing in their backgrounds. MMA is far more universal then boxing ever was or will be and is much more entertaining then boxing in my opinion.
Cross over appeal and the fact that in boxing you don't get the best fighting the best on any kind of consistent basis is the reason MMA has come so far in such a short time.
I think someone in here said it best. It was mentioned that MMA hasn't overtaken boxing in the UK, but it is very popular amongst a young demographic. And I agree it's just a matter of time before MMA overtakes boxing in that country just like the US.
Boxing not being on network tv severely limits it's exposure, yes we have the internet, but you also must have it on network tv to reach a massive audience and interest potential fans, especially the young which will become your hardcore fanbase in the future.
In simple terms, boxing fucked up by going to HBO and Showtime primarily in the US, and now someone in this thread said it's not on network tv in the UK. Which really why boxing has fallen off the mainstream.
Agreed. Promoters are fucking themselves and the sport by taking short-sighted and exclusionary approaches to distribution for quick financial gains.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
Mma is no threat to boxing at all. No more than the ping pong people are worried about tennis. This whole mma vs boxing thing is simply retarded and a bunch of crap dana white and mma fans started to stir up buisness for themselves. Than being said ....boxings problem is that no matter what they do, how bad they screw us, how dumb they make us look as fans they rely on the true fans sticking with them no matter what. And sadley they are absolutly right. Mma is making an effort to gain new fans on top of the ones they already have while boxing says screw the fans yall ain't goin no where anyway. Look at all the catchweights, stupid belts, margo cheat supporters etc.....boxing can do no wrong and people will always dump thier money into thier pockets. In mma i doubt you would even see such garbage as jones/hopkins, chavez jr on ppv, margo/pac, haye/harrison etc.....and if you did it would be on free spike tv if anything. I don't see the dislike between the two sports really. I don't like mma but i definatly can see why those that do, do. (mma do do ? lol) ok bad joke. But do baseball fans constantly downgrade softball ? Football fans soccer ? Breakdancers talk shit about ballet ? So on and so forth.
Great poitn and agreed 100%.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFH
People don't know who today's boxers are outside of Floyd Mayweather and Manny Pacquaio. Its much easier to talk about MMA with people than it is to talk about boxing, because just about every male, whether they follow the sport religiously or have only seen a show or two, have fighters they like, dislike, ect. They have a certain emotional attachment to the different fighters.
And its not like MMA has better personalities. You have your standard "working class hero's", your flashy trash-talkers, your humble nice guys, your villains, ect, that you have in boxing. Just no exposure on the boxing side. If people have some level of emotional attachment to the characters in boxing, I believe the sport would be doing a lot better.
I'm sure everyone here can attest to the fact that your average male would have trouble naming a Heavyweight champion, or a boxing champion besides Floyd Mayweather.
Everyone has heard of Georges St. Pierre, Brock Lesnar and Anderson Silva.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mar;898388[B
I think this is completely wrong. Boxing IS at risk of losing something significant to MMA and that is the bragging rights of its fighters. If you ask the average American who is the baddest man on the planet, I would suggest more might now mention Brock Lesnar's name than either of the Klitschko's, that is a HUGE momentum shift in a few years when you consider boxing has always enjoyed the status of its best fighters being regarded as the baddest man.
That is simply no longer the case. Whether it is true or not, it is far easier for people to see guys like Anderson Silva, Brock Lesnar, Shane Carwin etc as unstoppable monsters as it is guys like Wlad, Vitali or even Floyd Mayweather imo.
Virtually everyone is now in agreement that in a real fight with no rules, a top MMA simply has more skills and too much against a top boxer. That is a HUGE factor working in their advantage in the long term.
It's still a developing sport but the potential for MMA is much greater. More varied action, a wider skill set, a more effective and well rounded fighting style. It really is analagous to chess vs draughts, pool vs snooker, Nascar vs Formula 1, where MMA is the most advanced of the two.
I'm not suggesting they are right now at that stage, but the potential is far greater. There is simply so much more going on in MMA. Nowadays a young kid wanting to learn to fight is probably as likely to want to learn mixed martial arts as they are boxing. In the future it could well overtake boxing. Why would you just want to use your fists and be a great boxer, when you could throw people, slam them, choke them out, break their arms and legs etc?
Kids will flock to this sport over the next 10-20 years and by around 2020 the best fighters will be mixed martial artists imo.
It's a huge threat to boxing in the longterm, even now the UFC has more stars than boxing, and that is alarming.
Chuck Liddel, Randy Coutoure, Rampage Jackson, Brock Lesnar, Anderson Silva, maybe even Forest Griffin are simply bigger household names than all but a handful of boxers.
Take away Floyd and Manny and who is bigger in boxing than Rampage Jackson and Brock?
Thats in just 10 years!
The big names in boxing are all gone, or are in their 40's, Jones Jr, Hopkins etc.
It's hard to see where the next boxing superstar is coming from, I certainly see nobody on the horizon.
To echo a few other posters.
1. Organization- MMA is more like a league with organization than boxing. The separate promoters and separate belts are ridiculous.
2. Skill set- if you have ever trained in boxing and mma you would clearly know you have a lot more to worry about learning in mma. Just try playing the video games of each. You have all the same ability to punch in mma as boxing, but then you still have to go to the ground, and kicks. No question which is more difficult.
3. Over promise under deliver- PBF is the king of shit talking without even trying to deliver what he says. He hypes by lying. ODH and PBF the whole time he was saying he was gonna ko ODH and he never took a risk or had it anywhere in his game plan. He flat out lied to get you to buy, when he clearly intended to box not brawl.
4. Advertising money- who is a regular boxing sponsor? Beer companies. The rest of the companies pretty much capatilize on a big event but nothing regular. UFC is a different story. They have lots of regulars and have even created their own industry of products related.
5. Younger generation- i'm a fan of both. When my daughters friends come around they don't even know who boxers are, but are familiar with UFC fighters.
As far as class. Are you serious? Boxing is classy? Sorry, im a fan but that's ridiculous. The promoter that made a million dollars from a hug fest is wearing a suit and that makes it classy? The announcing team for HBO wears suits so their classy? They have classy people that know nothing about their sport announcing so that rubs off on a sport where most of the high profile stars are known for being arrested?
Sorry that's a dumb argument.
As a boxing fan I will say I am very envious of the job Dana White has done marketing the UFC....granted he's scraped the bottom of the barrell with a couple of their sponsors, but he's pulled UFC out from the obscure into the mainstream and as far as "mainstream" goes it's hurting boxing just by making boxing look exclusive rather than inclusive.
Boxing left: NBC, USA, and hell these days the only place you can find it without ordering movie channels is ESPN.
Boxing is going to get humbled, but eventually someone will bring it back around for the masses, whether it's the Pac-Mayweather Mega Fight or a special exciting fighter, or what have you, the deal is boxing isn't going anywhere because of UFC/MMA it just looks bad in comparison. Right now I think boxing is just for more sophisticated fight fans (this is due partly to the UFC's broad marketing bringing in people who know fuck all about any fighting)
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
I agree boxing isn't going anywhere. And I mean that both ways. It's not going away and it's not getting bigger. Mega fights will come and go and boxing has a wider audience for that, but a mega fight brings casual fans that don't stick around. There are hardcore boxing fans which most of us on here are, and there's casual mega fight fans. You have to go out of your way to try to find boxing to watch, even with all the premium cable channels its on once or twice a month and the excitement level in the broadcasting for lower level fights is akin to watching golf.
It's not about whether mma is cause boxing to go extinct. Never happen. But mma is going to be more popular than boxing in the near future and just because of their organization they can keep what they develop. Boxing would have to completely be restructured to approach any sense of being mainstream. And that will not happen.
I was a boxer in my youth and at 34 now I must say that I stay up at nite to watch MMA shows (Strikeforce and UFC) but not boxing anymore...
I really get bored with boxing. Except for Pacquiao/Klitchko boxing becomes boring.
The number of bad decision, the world titles, the numerous weight classes...boxing is a mess. Who can follow it ? who can understand it ? who can still watch a sport with so many wrong decision ?
Have you noticed on how hard is it to have people fighting the best in their categories ?
UFC bring more clarity and better shows to the people. You can easily watch it and enjoy it even if you're not in the game period ! not in boxing anymore...
and the HBO saying : nobody knows the klitchko...yeah great, keep going on ! and in 10 years boxing will be done. continue to have 15 or 18 (I don't remember) weight classes in 4 majors leagues...it becomes ridiculous...
Besides that, boxing gyms are deserted, all the kids want BJJ practice coupled with some Thai Boxing...that's it.
mma is no threat to boxing
the mma scene right now is in a bad state
FEG is actually close to going out of business (they struck a deal with some chinese bank that is supposed to secure over 200 million in worldwide sponsorships/investments and the word on the street is if the bank doesnt come through FEG is done)
if strikeforce ended up unable to continue promoting fights on a national level and FEG went under the sport would be fucked
the UFC already pays fighters whatever it wants, but if there was literally nowhere else a fighter could make money...
there would be no reason for anyone to view mma as a good option (assuming they had potential to make money in any other sport)
hopefully FEG/strikeforce will be fine tho and none of this will even matter
When did this thread become so good! :D
I've never really thought of MMA bring a threat to boxing. Then I read this.
Now I'm still on the fence. If you read each post neutrally, each is not wrong and is a compelling argument.
Hmmm. I'm still unsure.
Yes I understand your point, I don't forget that Brock made 450.000$ the last time he fought which is ridiculous compared to Mayweather or Pacquiao.
nonetheless, I agree with you that if Dana doesn't increase the salary of the fighters, the show won't attract the next "athletes" of tomorrow.
May I just draw your attention to the fact that it IS the case with boxing. Boxing doesn't have the best athletes, they go in NFL or NBA period.
As far as I am concerned the UFC is what is making MMA so popular, but also IMO they will be what breaks MMA in the longrun. They can't afford to pay huge wages and have stacked cards, so at the minute they are getting away with low wages (in comparison to elite boxers) but having very stacked cards. But ODLH has already shown interest in putting MMA cards on and if promoters like that start dishing out boxing money then the UFC will lose the stars.Quote:
Originally Posted by SEB
Another thing that will be a downfall for the UFC is all this "you must work exclusively for the UFC" that Dana insists on. They could have signed Fedor last year if they had just let him continue his Sambo career outside of MMA but they wouldn't and in turn missed out on what would be the biggest HW fight in MMA history between him and Lesnar. Now that Fedor has lost too it will not have the same appeal even though I think he would destroy Werdum in a rematch.
I think in the longrun boxing will make a comeback and become the sport it was in the 90's again although it may never be the force of the 70's. It is back as the second most watched sport in the world again believe it or not too just not in the U.S or the U.K.
In an ideal world the likes of Mayweather and co could do with losing some of the greed for the good of their sport. I heard reports that there was the potential for Mayweather and Pac to make £60 million each if they fought this november. Now why not just accept a mere £25 million each and leave the extra £70 million to having an extra 7 world title bouts on the card? Hell, there is certainly enough world titles in boxing to have that capability.
As for the best athletes being in the NBA and NFL, I know nothing about either but I believe you probably right. Why would they come to boxing at the moment? The HW division is a mess and if you do beat the top men right now you've only done it in a "weak era". And then there is the fact that stepping into a boxing ring you are risking your life whereas in Basketball and football it would take a freak accident for someone to die and that could happen with any job.
I do feel that boxing will comeback though, it will just take a young, hungry, in shape and probably American HW to get the juices flowing again like Tyson did in the mid 80's after the dire early 80's and then the likes of the Evanders, Lennox's and Bowes will follow. We just need that fuel injection of excitement in the HW division and then the rest will follow.
I've come to the conclusion that boxing is just very special, very different from any other sport. No other sport could get away with what boxing does.
From the facts people have quoted, wrestling is the most popular pastime and people get bought up with it, yet boxing still outshines MMA, in both money made and the number of fans.
The money in boxing is simply incredible and the more exclusive it becomes, the more money there will be. Vegas will always love boxing and sponsors will always love to spend a fortune on it.
MMA won't overtake boxing and even if it did in terms of fan numbers, it still wouldn't be a threat to boxing as they could operate side by side.
Yes, we share the same hope...
It's not. Simple. Not in the long run. MMA will never have a Joe Louis, Muhammad Ali or Sugar Nicky V. ;)
My god this person is insane lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niko's Girl!
Who's Niko?Quote:
Originally Posted by Niko's Girl!
From other posts I've read I'm guessing....Valuev :-\Quote:
Originally Posted by PacstraightleftWho's Niko?Quote:
Originally Posted by Niko's Girl!
Frightening really isn't it???Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongFrom other posts I've read I'm guessing....Valuev :-\Quote:
Originally Posted by PacstraightleftWho's Niko?Quote:
Originally Posted by Niko's Girl!
I can feel a little bit of bile rising up in my throat after just figuring that Niko's girl meant Valuev. :-XQuote:
Originally Posted by El KabongFrom other posts I've read I'm guessing....Valuev :-\Quote:
Originally Posted by PacstraightleftWho's Niko?Quote:
Originally Posted by Niko's Girl!
i've almost completely switched to watching and following MMA now, too sick of the theatrics of boxing and right matchups not being made,
UFC gives me the fights i want to see
Boxing has fights i want to see which don't happen.
if mma is no threat then why are boxing fans on this thread already saying they prefer itQuote:
Originally Posted by Mar
if mma is for the younger audience than it stands to reason that boxing will lose out, as i have already stated its easier for a boxing fan to turn to mma than vice versa.
check this out for value for money!
just watched UFC 92
rampage jackson vs wandelirli silva
frank mir vs antonio rodrigo nogueira
Rashad evans vs forrest griffin
i mean what would that card be equivilant to in boxing terms?
....you can go back in history and find great boxing cards, hell Manny Pacquiao fought on the Lewis-Tyson undercard.
MMA will have big success early and begin to fade a bit, it won't go away but it's peaked right now IMO and it's going to have to use more gimmicks, expand their stable of fighters, pay their fighters more money....eventually the economy of the sport will end up hurting the product given to the fans....more will be at stake for the fighters, they may be less likely to engage, they'll have more fights in Texas (which means shitty decisions and poorly run shows) and the product is not always going to be perfect.
Boxing can still rely on 1 big match to sell a card right now....maybe the economy of our sport gets gut checked to where we're able to put some big time cards together and maybe Don King dies or retires or something and better matches start getting made.
Boxing won't go away...it's hibernating right now in the divisions north of 168 but it'll come back with a vengence.
GBP is the new King and Arum combined. There will always be a new King or Arum on the horizon.
What boxing needs to do is go back to network tv to reach a massive audience, for this massive audience will have young kids wanting to participate in the sport or new fans that are drawn to the sport. As I've said before, HBO and Showtime killed boxing as a mainstream sport in America.
i hope your right man cos i am pretty low on boxing @ the moment, man not one of my friends knows anything abt boxing & if i am @ the pub fkin know one knows abt boxing, if it was on uk free tv it could be big once again!Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Boxing HAS to make it back to regular TV....some of the ESPN fights have been pretty good.
I totally agree with you here Lyle. If all of a sudden you Americans had a young 20 year old IN SHAPE HW who had a record of something like 15-0 (15 KO's), was exciting to watch and was well handled and promoted (something like Tyson in the early days) then boxing would fly up the popularity ladder. And then if you add an inevitable Mayweather-Pacquiao fight It would totally sky rocket again. To me these two things are only are matter of time off coming around. Boxing has had numerous quiet patches before but has always recovered. How will MMA react when they have a quiet patch??Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
At the end of the day if I was a young athletic kid and I had the choice of chasing either MMA and earning $250,000 a fight or Boxing and having the potential of earning $40,000,000 a fight. I know which way I would go.
back to what lyle was saying, i think at thie moment ufc is probably at its best, it will prob be difficult to keep paying the fighters these low pay packets (in comparison to other sports) & when that happens the fight cards will not be as stacked.
the great thing with the ufc @ the moment is that there is only 5 weight catogaries meaning all the fighters cannot just jump to another division to dodge another fighter.
this is the situation @ the moment anyway i am sure that the ufc has plenty of time to fk it all up anyway.
i would rather be caught in an affliction shirt than a liverpool shirt (i couldnt resist that lyle ha ha)Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
boxers jump into other weight classes to avoid other boxers ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Drago
funny