Re: The Case Against Julio Cesar Chavez
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ElTerribleMorales
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Originally Posted by
milmascaras1
titofan,
your outrageous denial of chavez' accomplishments borders on lunacy! and for the millionth time, you keep harping about chavez' 40 bums. did you or did you not know that most of the all-time greats also had their big share of bums as well? why are you only targeting chavez' record? look at some of the all-time greats, like joe louis, henry armstrong, rocky marciano, and many, many others...these guys built part of their impressive records on alot of bums with losing records.
here is what i found out of chavez' record, after he won his first world title, he fought one fighter with a losing record. this is far, far less than many of the great fighters of yesteryear. but you seem to be silent on this, i wonder why?
look, you want the truth? i'll give you the god damned truth, the truth of the matter is this, the only reason why you tend to belittle chavez' accomplishments is because he has accomplished more than all your PR champions in history! i'm sorry to tell you the truth but it just had to be said, right here, right now.
i mean the envy you, morales and other PR's have for chavez is just really sad.
the way you can't get PR out your mouth says it all, i know you wish you were a part of this great island but well you're not, Titofan and me haven't disputed any of Chavez SR's accomplishments, he's a sure fire HOF'er, but just as OTHER BIGGER NAME FIGHTERS tend to be overrated well Chavez as well is overrated a hell of a lot of times
do i agree with the original post in this thread? no, using that type of deducing you can make ANY GREAT fighter look like shit when all the FACTS prove otherwise
just cause someone does guzzle down YOUR favorite fighters balls doesn't mean that their envious, but you get pissy and have a little bitch fit everytime someone doesn't agree with you, hell the whole Chavez JR thread is proof of that, Jr is utter shit and will only reach B level success, that's MY OPINION, and it's not due to envy it's because the pussy doesn't step it up at all, he fought one of the crappiest Middleweight's in the last 10 yrs (when you can't get by an ancient Campas well you know you're crap), and now he's fighting one of the smallest fighters to come out of The Pretender (and the same dude who was stomped out by Cotto in 5, hell he was even dropped by jabs), you bitch about Donaire always fighting smaller guys, yet you're ok with Chavez Jr doing the same exact thing, actually hold that, Donaire's at least fighting decent guys in Maldonado and Concepcion, unlike Chavez Jr, both guys need to pick it up but at least one guy is in talks of fighting with one of the best Bantams in the world (Montiel) and the other is fighting a bum (Gomez), you're the most biased poster on here who can never see past a fucking flag
Donaire had a good amateur career. Chavez Jr didn't.
Not to mention Donaire is foolishly place on some p4p lists. More is expected of him as he's suppose to be justifying that standing. He hasn't even come close to doing that. Bad comparison/example
i agree with you completely, Donaire shouldn't be on the p4p list, his biggest win was against Darchinyan when Darchinyan himself didn't have the biggest wins of his career, but it's kinda ridiculous to keep using lack of amateur experience as an excuse for a guy to keep fighting the same level of tomato cans (granted that Chavez Jr has now jumped from fighting C Level fighters to B- Level fighters)
Re: The Case Against Julio Cesar Chavez
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ElTerribleMorales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ElTerribleMorales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
milmascaras1
titofan,
your outrageous denial of chavez' accomplishments borders on lunacy! and for the millionth time, you keep harping about chavez' 40 bums. did you or did you not know that most of the all-time greats also had their big share of bums as well? why are you only targeting chavez' record? look at some of the all-time greats, like joe louis, henry armstrong, rocky marciano, and many, many others...these guys built part of their impressive records on alot of bums with losing records.
here is what i found out of chavez' record, after he won his first world title, he fought one fighter with a losing record. this is far, far less than many of the great fighters of yesteryear. but you seem to be silent on this, i wonder why?
look, you want the truth? i'll give you the god damned truth, the truth of the matter is this, the only reason why you tend to belittle chavez' accomplishments is because he has accomplished more than all your PR champions in history! i'm sorry to tell you the truth but it just had to be said, right here, right now.
i mean the envy you, morales and other PR's have for chavez is just really sad.
the way you can't get PR out your mouth says it all, i know you wish you were a part of this great island but well you're not, Titofan and me haven't disputed any of Chavez SR's accomplishments, he's a sure fire HOF'er, but just as OTHER BIGGER NAME FIGHTERS tend to be overrated well Chavez as well is overrated a hell of a lot of times
do i agree with the original post in this thread? no, using that type of deducing you can make ANY GREAT fighter look like shit when all the FACTS prove otherwise
just cause someone does guzzle down YOUR favorite fighters balls doesn't mean that their envious, but you get pissy and have a little bitch fit everytime someone doesn't agree with you, hell the whole Chavez JR thread is proof of that, Jr is utter shit and will only reach B level success, that's MY OPINION, and it's not due to envy it's because the pussy doesn't step it up at all, he fought one of the crappiest Middleweight's in the last 10 yrs (when you can't get by an ancient Campas well you know you're crap), and now he's fighting one of the smallest fighters to come out of The Pretender (and the same dude who was stomped out by Cotto in 5, hell he was even dropped by jabs), you bitch about Donaire always fighting smaller guys, yet you're ok with Chavez Jr doing the same exact thing, actually hold that, Donaire's at least fighting decent guys in Maldonado and Concepcion, unlike Chavez Jr, both guys need to pick it up but at least one guy is in talks of fighting with one of the best Bantams in the world (Montiel) and the other is fighting a bum (Gomez), you're the most biased poster on here who can never see past a fucking flag
Donaire had a good amateur career. Chavez Jr didn't.
Not to mention Donaire is foolishly place on some p4p lists. More is expected of him as he's suppose to be justifying that standing. He hasn't even come close to doing that. Bad comparison/example
i agree with you completely, Donaire shouldn't be on the p4p list, his biggest win was against Darchinyan when Darchinyan himself didn't have the biggest wins of his career, but it's kinda ridiculous to keep using lack of amateur experience as an excuse for a guy to keep fighting the same level of tomato cans (granted that Chavez Jr has now jumped from fighting C Level fighters to B- Level fighters)
On the job training is all it was. You don't like hearing about it cuz it don't suit you. But think about it. Your son and your nephew both turn pro. Your son never fought as an amateur. Your nephew on the other hand had over 100 amateur fights in different places in the world. The 2 opponents are 16-3 and 2-23. You gonna put your son in with the 16-3 fighter? No your not. Your nephew is more experience and better equipped to fight him. Your son gets the 2-23 fighter. Cuz even though there both are turning pro at the same time. There not equipped the same. You can't match them up the same.
Re: The Case Against Julio Cesar Chavez
JCC is an atg, sure he had a few bums on his resume here and there even after a certain point, but again who doesn't? Duran is 1 of my favorite fighters ever, but after he was LW champ, he still fought some guys with shit records. After the Buchannan fight for the LW title he fought a guy that was 11-3-1 and then fought a guy that was 12-10 before he fought De Jesus, he also had a few guys that were 0-3 and 0-2 a few times, and this is a prime Duran. Marvin Hagler had a very good amateur career, fought mostly bums with shit records for his first 49 fights before facing Anterfuomo. Some really atrocious records those fighters had, and Hagler is one of the top 3 fighters in my list.
So I don't know why people are pointing this out about JCC, it's not a big deal imo.
Re: The Case Against Julio Cesar Chavez
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
JCC is an atg, sure he had a few bums on his resume here and there even after a certain point, but again who doesn't? Duran is 1 of my favorite fighters ever, but after he was LW champ, he still fought some guys with shit records. After the Buchannan fight for the LW title he fought a guy that was 11-3-1 and then fought a guy that was 12-10 before he fought De Jesus, he also had a few guys that were 0-3 and 0-2 a few times, and this is a prime Duran. Marvin Hagler had a very good amateur career, fought mostly bums with shit records for his first 49 fights before facing Anterfuomo. Some really atrocious records those fighters had, and Hagler is one of the top 3 fighters in my list.
So I don't know why people are pointing this out about JCC, it's not a big deal imo.
This. I find a lot of people like to glorify the records of older fighters while more recent guys get given a lot of shit unfairly. An example would be seeing how the records of Oscar, Manny & Floyd actually stack up against those legends of the past, when you actually look at it they've got resumes that do stack up, it just doesn't suit their detractors to ackowledge it. I'll disagree about Hagler, I think he fought pretty damn good opp on the way up against guys who nobody wanted to fight, but his resume is not the beast many claim it to be if you consider that his most notable wins were against smaller guys coming up.
The rest I agree with. Even though I feel JCC gets a little overrated by some, he was actually a tremendously skilled fighter with his head movement & his work on the inside, it's just against quicker opposition (i.e. the Taylor & Oscar fights, the main ones people have seen) this wasn't always so apparent. It's like the idea that Duran was some face-first brawling pressure fighter that gets pushed around because people have only seen the Leonard & Hearns fights :rolleyes:
As for the OP, not a 1st ballot Hall of Famer, get a grip. More than anyone else on this year's ballot (& I include Tyson in that), he deserves the first vote. Would you really have Kostya Tszyu in before him :-\:-X
Re: The Case Against Julio Cesar Chavez
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Manju
With JC Superstar back in the news as a 1st timer on the HOF ballet, I’d like to make the case against him. I think he deserves HOF status to be sure, but perhaps not on the first ballet. Here’s why.
The upper-echelon of the cream of the crop should be reserved for those who successfully fought other potential HOFers in their prime, i.e. those in similar weight-classes and on the 1b-4-1b lists of the day. If no such fighters were available, then of course the candidate should not be punished. But if they were and the boxer in question did not fight them, then that should be considered a demerit (unless its apparent the other fighter was doing the dodging). It is here that JCC falls short.
Let’s look at his best available completion.
1. Sweet Pea. He was the best fighter of the era and was of similar size to JCC. Chavez lost decisively. I know he benefited from the judges generosity, but history is another judge. Just as important, he never fought Pernell again. Suspicious.
2. Meldrick Taylor. JCC’s shining moment, imo. He showed his deceptive power, his chin, and won the fight morally (ie Meldrick was a beaten man). In a just world Taylor would’ve gotten the decision and then gotten KOed in an immediate rematch. But in what became a pattern, there was no immediate rematch (though I’m uncertain if JCC really did the dodging here) and the 2nd fight happened when Taylor was shot. So, JCCs best performance against a fellow great is arguably a loss.
3. Frankie Randall. Randall was not a lb-4-lber but he makes the list by virtue of being the first to officially beat Chavez. He was beating him again in the rematch when Chavez quit and got a gift. The 3rd match was not held until Randall was shot. Severe discredit is due here. Another decisive loss for Chavez.
4. ODLH. JCC is forgiven here b/c he was past his prime. But he was not that past his prime and he got whupped. Chavez appeared to quit in the 2nd fight. Another patern.
5. Azumah Nelson: Nelson was of similar size to JCC, was a great boxer-brawler, a 1b-4-1ber, and they never fought.
6. Buddy McGirt: like Nelson, similar size, great boxer, was considered formidable after schooling the great Simon Brown, but never got a shot at Chavez
7. Simon Brown: slightly bigger than the other guys but still within range of JCC. Never fought.
8, 9, and 10 : Norris, Trinidad, and Starling: JCC can be forgiven for not fighting these bigger guys. But he needed something on his resume, they were available, and they weren’t that much bigger.
So there you have it. These 10 boxers were better than any boxer JCC defeated. Those include Haugen (who had already lost to Paz twice and Camacho), Ramirez (already lost to Haugen) Roger Mayweather, Lockerage, and Camacho (all of whom had suffered loses prior). They were good fighters, and JCC dominated them. But they were not the best available.
Against the best available, JCC either lost, quit, was gifted, or did not fight.
That's fine piece of work.
Re: The Case Against Julio Cesar Chavez
morales,
where did i make a big deal about chavez having over 100 wins? i might has put it out there to show his overall career record, but i didn't make a great deal about it.
what i did do was show that before his first loss at 89-0-1, he had been a world champion for over nine years. he already had 23 successful world title defenses. how many people in history can claim this? what i did say was he holds the all-time record of 27 successful title defenses, most title fights (37), didn't lose until his 15th year as a pro, most title defenses at jr. welter (16).
and yet you chavez haters write him off as if he was some kind of overrated fighter.
again, name me any fighter alive today (active or retired), who can claim these accomplishments!
Re: The Case Against Julio Cesar Chavez
Quote:
Originally Posted by
milmascaras1
morales,
where did i make a big deal about chavez having over 100 wins? i might has put it out there to show his overall career record, but i didn't make a great deal about it.
what i did do was show that before his first loss at 89-0-1, he had been a world champion for over nine years. he already had 23 successful world title defenses. how many people in history can claim this? what i did say was he holds the all-time record of 27 successful title defenses, most title fights (37), didn't lose until his 15th year as a pro, most title defenses at jr. welter (16).
and yet you chavez haters write him off as if he was some kind of overrated fighter.
again, name me any fighter alive today (active or retired), who can claim these accomplishments!
so now a person is a "hater" when they state that a certain fighter is overrated....spoken like a true fanboy :rolleyes:
Re: The Case Against Julio Cesar Chavez
morales,
hey, i'm still waiting for you to give me the name(s) of fighters alive today who have done what chavez has done! tick-tock, tick-tock etc...
Re: The Case Against Julio Cesar Chavez
Let's forget the more than 100 fights, forget the fact he fought some guys who were not well-known, forget the fact that he is friendly nice guy or a complete jerk, etc. He is a Hall of Famer for the admirable accomplishments that have already been mentioned here. Don't know what is left to debate:confused:.
Re: The Case Against Julio Cesar Chavez
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Oh... I said two things. The other one is: 2) he's a jerk. A class-A, bonafide, 100% USDA jerk. Totally classless when he got whipped by Frankie Randall, and never giving any credit to anybody. AND... he's bringing Junior along the same way. He's the typical, over-bearing ex-fighter dad.
Those are my points, and nothing your stats say can change that.
Your hypocrisy is hilarious. Yes Chavez was all that you say. While I don't mind that in a fighter, you wanna dislike him for that, that's fine. You have that right. What's funny is you hold that against Chavez but not Duran. Duran is an ATG fighter. As well as an ATG jerk. I mean the guy wasn't just a sore loser. He was sore winner. Watch the lead up as well as the end of Duran-Leonard 1 for Duran's classy ways.
C'mon VD... you know better than that. When did I say Duran was a classy guy? Matter of fact, I hated his reaction to Sugar Ray after their first fight, and was overjoyed when Hearns savagely knocked him out. But there's a subtle difference between Duran and Chavez. Duran was just a wild animal, working himself into a hatred of any opponent they put in front of him, and doing his best to pummel them into a pulp. Although I don't excuse his reaction after the 1st Leonard fight, it could be said he was just too worked up when the final bell sounded to behave like a sportsman.
Chavez... on the other hand, always seemed to me to be calculatingly hypocritical and too much into his precious little "0", as well as his march toward 100 wins. He discredited his opponents, and... even after he started fighting world class opposition, managed to sprinkle in a few "debutantes" and palookas with losing records. And while I know every great fighter takes a breather every now and then, they're usually not as blatant about it as Chavez apparently was.
What I still don't get is this backlash about my dislike for the guy and his bloated record. Granted... I've never said he doesn't belong in the HOF or that he isn't an all-time great fighter. Just that his record was bloated, that's all. And the "lack of amateur experience" argument just doesn't cut it. Because while he's entitled to a learning curve, like all other fighters, the bums he was beating up on should not have counted on his professional record... simple as that.
Re: The Case Against Julio Cesar Chavez
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chino
Let's forget the more than 100 fights, forget the fact he fought some guys who were not well-known, forget the fact that he is friendly nice guy or a complete jerk, etc. He is a Hall of Famer for the admirable accomplishments that have already been mentioned here. Don't know what is left to debate:confused:.
well it's easy, milmascaras is in this thread, so he's not gonna be happy until everyone volunteers to teabag Chavez's nuts as he does :-X
