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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drago
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hornfinger
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Andre
How does god cause miscarriges? Of course it has nothing to do with women abusing their bodies whilst pregnant.
There are plenty of rescourses to make sure all the people have water, however it is the blind greed of multi national corperations that prevent it
God didn't cause the Holocaust the Nazis did
The reson why so many die in natural disasters is because others have the 'I'm alright jack' attitude and refuse to pledge time and money to help.
Alot of things that God is blamed for are actually caused by or could be prevented by humans. People just use God's 'nastiness' as a scape goat for there own selfish behavior.
God said 'love thy neighbour'. If we all actually did that we wouldn't have any where near the problems we do.
my neighbors a cnt tho:mad:
Mine is too,but he makes all the others around here look so much better in reflection.
I love boiling water too for so many reasons, but not poured on me ;).
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Just a mile east of my house there is the East Ridge of the continental Divide. Beautiful, especially in the mornings with the sun coming up, or with storm clouds hovering about the mountain. Just south of me are the Highland mountains, over 10,000 feet. The sight of those mountainbs, covered in snow, with the early morning sun reflecting off of them is the most inspiring sight that I am aware of. i live with this wonderful jackass of a dog (Kimberly) and she never lets me be unhappy.
I don't think any of that is accidental, I believe that there is a creator. But if he bothers himself with all this petty, nonsensical, human bullshit, he's a pretty sorry sort to be calling himself "GOD".
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Alright, gentlemen, I'm not going to debate whether God exists or not 'cause I know it will get nowhere. All I can say is that He either exists or not; that makes it 50-50, even. But with an even-steven chance, don't you think it's better to be on the safe side? Nuff of that...
Let's discuss something different but related.
Why is it that at the dawn of civilization, all tribes, as we call them, developed certain rituals or practices mostly religious in nature? For example, why did almost all tribes in the world develop some form of rituals like dancing & chantings? Why did most of them offer sacrifices? And as Adam and Eve had done, why did they start to cover themself and sex suddenly becomes something to be ashamed of? which is contrary to the evolutionary principle of 'let's go and multiply with abandon'?
It's a fact that when people engage in chanting-dancing rituals, which is usually their way to communicate with their Gods, their mind is brought into a sem-trance state or the alpha mode, as scientists classify them according to the brain-wave pattern. It's the same mode as when people go into deep prayer or meditation. But more intriguing is it's the same mode or state of mind when great discoveries were made, taking the classic example of how Isaac Newton discovered his gravity theory:
'...whilst he was musing in a garden it came into his thought that the power of gravity...'
So you see fellas, there is something there when people go into alpha state of mind. The early humans believed it to be the way to communicate with God. The Hindu's and the Buddhist's, and meditators like us believe it's the way to tap into the 'Universal Mind' which is a storehouse of all knowledge of this universe...
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
If I built a treehouse for my kids, I'd let them do what they wanted with it within reason. They start breaking it up or fighting with one another over it their ass gets ejected. I wouldnt try and wipe them out with a flood or owt, just a bit of time on the naughty step should do it.
God can do anything, he must have a naughty step?
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People needed an explanation and a purpose.
It's human nature, not a sign of a greater power.
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Memphis
If I built a treehouse for my kids, I'd let them do what they wanted with it within reason. They start breaking it up or fighting with one another over it their ass gets ejected. I wouldnt try and wipe them out with a flood or owt, just a bit of time on the naughty step should do it.
God can do anything, he must have a naughty step?
Naughty step I like that analogy ;D.
But people have misinterpreted the fact that consequences come from actions and have instead thrown even that responsibility over to a God they do or dont believe in as a punisher and vengeful prick.
Recon planet Earth and the 3rd dimension can be what ever you you make it.(that is proven just look around). people who have nothing can end up with bliss and a very full life). Others born into everything they could wish for can end up in their own hell and then there is everything and everyone in between.
Earth can even be the naughty step. But if it is, you put yourself there.
This is real ground here and what we want, we get. You have created your reality yourself from the way you acted and thought in the past. (past lives included).
Unfortunately we (in the greater % of people) in our hearts want a Godless human run world.
All the mis forms, derangements and derailments are for the most part all our own doing through evolving the way of thought and greed above feeling and compassion.
God isnt a Man or a woman God is both and also every single atom in every single dimension expanding and at times contracting and even dieing off at times in the worse way for the sake of greater experience. We are also great but we are just a ripple in the whole event you can be the ripple that fades or the whole ocean, its still up to you,you can be a pure ripple or a polluted one too.
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Scrap
God is old, must be, they in South America dug into a hillside, and found Human Footprints at the side of Dinasours. Between 100 and 135 million years old, is that interesting or what. ;D
Modern man/"humans" are thought to have only been around for something like 150,000 to 250,000 years. Our "hominid"/apelike ancestry goes back something like 4-5 million years, so there's no way that man walked with the dinosaurs or that "human" footprints could be 100 and 135 million years old. That's total nonsense.
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
I've never, at least in my adult life, had any belief in the existence of "god". Gods/religions are man created concepts, designed to "guide" you though life, thanks, but no thanks, I can think just fine for myself.
Take Jesus for example, who if he actually existed (which I don't believe he did) was just a man, no more "special" than billions of other men, past and present.
It may sound pretentious and sacrilegious of me to a Christian, but why would I want to think like Jesus did or pattern my life after a schizophrenic holy-man who's probably a fictive character in a religious novel?
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
I've never, at least in my adult life, had any belief in the existence of "god". Gods/religions are man created concepts, designed to "guide" you though life, thanks, but no thanks, I can think just fine for myself.
Take Jesus for example, who if he actually existed (which I don't believe he did) was just a man, no more "special" than billions of other men, past and present.
It may sound pretentious and sacrilegious of me to a Christian, but why would I want to think like Jesus did or pattern my life after a schizophrenic holy-man who's probably a fictive character in a religious novel?
I get not believing Jesus was the son of god but history is pretty set that a man named Jesus of Nazareth did in fact walk the Earth and was crucified.
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
VictorCharlie
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
I've never, at least in my adult life, had any belief in the existence of "god". Gods/religions are man created concepts, designed to "guide" you though life, thanks, but no thanks, I can think just fine for myself.
Take Jesus for example, who if he actually existed (which I don't believe he did) was just a man, no more "special" than billions of other men, past and present.
It may sound pretentious and sacrilegious of me to a Christian, but why would I want to think like Jesus did or pattern my life after a schizophrenic holy-man who's probably a fictive character in a religious novel?
I get not believing Jesus was the son of god
but history is pretty set that a man named Jesus of Nazareth did in fact walk the Earth and was crucified.
I've done a lot of research on the actual existence of Jesus, the reality is, his alleged existence isn't even close to becoming a forgone conclusion. My guess is Jesus was a composite of rabbis/holy-men that festered during that period in history. One thing that is certain, the "Jesus" character described in the "New Testament", written 50 to 300 years after his alleged death by unknown authors, is pure religious fiction and/or a holy fairytale.
BTW, Nazareth might not have even existed during the time "Jesus" was alleged to have "walked the earth".
http://nobeliefs.com/exist.htm
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
VictorCharlie
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
I've never, at least in my adult life, had any belief in the existence of "god". Gods/religions are man created concepts, designed to "guide" you though life, thanks, but no thanks, I can think just fine for myself.
Take Jesus for example, who if he actually existed (which I don't believe he did) was just a man, no more "special" than billions of other men, past and present.
It may sound pretentious and sacrilegious of me to a Christian, but why would I want to think like Jesus did or pattern my life after a schizophrenic holy-man who's probably a fictive character in a religious novel?
I get not believing Jesus was the son of god
but history is pretty set that a man named Jesus of Nazareth did in fact walk the Earth and was crucified.
I've done a lot of research on the actual existence of Jesus, the reality is, his alleged existence isn't even close to becoming a forgone conclusion. My guess is Jesus was a composite of rabbis/holy-men that festered during that period in history. One thing that is certain, the "Jesus" character described in the "New Testament", written 50 to 300 years after his alleged death by unknown authors, is pure religious fiction and/or a holy fairytale.
BTW, Nazareth might not have even existed during the time "Jesus" was alleged to have "walked the earth".
Did Jesus exist?
The reason you cant find him by that name is because it wasnt his birth name.
(Some dick heads changed it).
It was Hebrew for a start well Aramaic then Hebrew.
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
i have never doubted gods existance ,
ive always thought he is fiction.
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
No I don't ever doubt God's existence. I am 100% convinced he does not exist. I do not doubt this fact, I do not question it. I would find it a massive hindrance in living a good life to constantly ruminate on the unintelligible and the unprovable. I find even the concept of allocating any importance or time to the worshipping of, or the communion with, a non-existent entity quite baffling. I am also often offended by the view of those that believe in God, that atheists, are some how less spiritual or incapable of living a fully realised and meaningful life. For me the reality of a limited existence, for a finite period of time, on a randomly populated planet,due to a chance collision of DNA material from two similarly randomly occurring individuals makes this opportunity much more awe inspiring. How can you have more reverence for everything around you and feel more inspired by it when you live in a mythical bubble that disconnects you from it. Every second spent on unverifiable speculation is a second wasted. So no, personally I do not spend a nanosecond on doubting God's existence,I consider his absence to be irrefutable and carry on.
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Andre
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
VictorCharlie
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
I've never, at least in my adult life, had any belief in the existence of "god". Gods/religions are man created concepts, designed to "guide" you though life, thanks, but no thanks, I can think just fine for myself.
Take Jesus for example, who if he actually existed (which I don't believe he did) was just a man, no more "special" than billions of other men, past and present.
It may sound pretentious and sacrilegious of me to a Christian, but why would I want to think like Jesus did or pattern my life after a schizophrenic holy-man who's probably a fictive character in a religious novel?
I get not believing Jesus was the son of god
but history is pretty set that a man named Jesus of Nazareth did in fact walk the Earth and was crucified.
I've done a lot of research on the actual existence of Jesus, the reality is, his alleged existence isn't even close to becoming a forgone conclusion. My guess is Jesus was a composite of rabbis/holy-men that festered during that period in history. One thing that is certain, the "Jesus" character described in the "New Testament", written 50 to 300 years after his alleged death by unknown authors, is pure religious fiction and/or a holy fairytale.
BTW, Nazareth might not have even existed during the time "Jesus" was alleged to have "walked the earth".
Did Jesus exist?
The reason you cant find him by that name is because it wasnt his birth name.
(Some dick heads changed it).
It was Hebrew for a start well Aramaic then Hebrew.
It's not just the name Andre, I believe the "Jesus" character in the New Testament is pure fiction.
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greenbeanz
No I don't ever doubt God's existence. I am 100% convinced he does not exist. I do not doubt this fact, I do not question it. I would find it a massive hindrance in living a good life to constantly ruminate on the unintelligible and the unprovable. I find even the concept of allocating any importance or time to the worshipping of, or the communion with, a non-existent entity quite baffling. I am also often offended by the view of those that believe in God, that atheists, are some how less spiritual or incapable of living a fully realised and meaningful life. For me the reality of a limited existence, for a finite period of time, on a randomly populated planet,due to a chance collision of DNA material from two similarly randomly occurring individuals makes this opportunity much more awe inspiring. How can you have more reverence for everything around you and feel more inspired by it when you live in a mythical bubble that disconnects you from it. Every second spent on unverifiable speculation is a second wasted. So no, personally I do not spend a nanosecond on doubting God's existence,I consider his absence to be irrefutable and carry on.
Great post Beanz.
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
VictorCharlie
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
I've never, at least in my adult life, had any belief in the existence of "god". Gods/religions are man created concepts, designed to "guide" you though life, thanks, but no thanks, I can think just fine for myself.
Take Jesus for example, who if he actually existed (which I don't believe he did) was just a man, no more "special" than billions of other men, past and present.
It may sound pretentious and sacrilegious of me to a Christian, but why would I want to think like Jesus did or pattern my life after a schizophrenic holy-man who's probably a fictive character in a religious novel?
I get not believing Jesus was the son of god
but history is pretty set that a man named Jesus of Nazareth did in fact walk the Earth and was crucified.
I've done a lot of research on the actual existence of Jesus,
the reality is, his alleged existence isn't even close to becoming a forgone conclusion. My guess is Jesus was a composite of rabbis/holy-men that festered during that period in history. One thing that is certain, the "Jesus" character described in the "New Testament", written 50 to 300 years after his alleged death by unknown authors, is pure religious fiction and/or a holy fairytale.
BTW, Nazareth might not have even existed during the time "Jesus" was alleged to have "walked the earth".
Did Jesus exist?
I dont' really have a dog in this fight but lets be serious for a minute. Regardless of your beliefs just about every single Christian, Muslim and Jew believe that Jesus was an actual man that walked this Earth. That is an overwhelming majority of the planets population that believe in his mere existence. Foregone conclusion? Maybe not and I don't know that that there will ever be but Jesus is definitely winning the popularity vote.
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
VictorCharlie
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
VictorCharlie
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
I've never, at least in my adult life, had any belief in the existence of "god". Gods/religions are man created concepts, designed to "guide" you though life, thanks, but no thanks, I can think just fine for myself.
Take Jesus for example, who if he actually existed (which I don't believe he did) was just a man, no more "special" than billions of other men, past and present.
It may sound pretentious and sacrilegious of me to a Christian, but why would I want to think like Jesus did or pattern my life after a schizophrenic holy-man who's probably a fictive character in a religious novel?
I get not believing Jesus was the son of god
but history is pretty set that a man named Jesus of Nazareth did in fact walk the Earth and was crucified.
I've done a lot of research on the actual existence of Jesus,
the reality is, his alleged existence isn't even close to becoming a forgone conclusion. My guess is Jesus was a composite of rabbis/holy-men that festered during that period in history. One thing that is certain, the "Jesus" character described in the "New Testament", written 50 to 300 years after his alleged death by unknown authors, is pure religious fiction and/or a holy fairytale.
BTW, Nazareth might not have even existed during the time "Jesus" was alleged to have "walked the earth".
Did Jesus exist?
I dont' really have a dog in this fight but lets be serious for a minute. Regardless of your beliefs just about every single Christian, Muslim and Jew believe that Jesus was an actual man that walked this Earth.
That is an overwhelming majority of the planets population that believe in his mere existence. Foregone conclusion? Maybe not and I don't know that that there will ever be but Jesus is definitely winning the popularity vote.
Being serious: this is an "argument from numbers" typically called ad populum, or an appeal to popularity. Since most people in general believe jesus existed, and most Christians, Muslims and Jews believe that Jesus was an actual man who walked this Earth, it therefore only makes sense that jesus existed, literally and historically. Millions also believed that the earth was flat, or that the earth was the center of the Universe, does that make it a fact? I think not. :)
Billions past and present believe that "Jesus" was the "son of god", a man, or a man-god that actually existed. There is however a large number of secular theologians and biblical scholars (including me) who've found "Jesus" to be historically non-existent.
When it comes to "Jesus" and the "New Testament", I take all that happy horseshit with a grain of salt, read and learn:
http://nobeliefs.com/exist.htm
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Mars Ex, for Mans Thumb to be as it is took 4million years to develope, to what it is. They are finding things, Artifacts 200 million years old. Also the Footprint was of a man Humanoid 9 ft tall, in tests it was proved thats what it was, also finding numerous others, we dont know half of it ;D
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
"There is however a large number of secular theologians and biblical scholars (including me) who've found "Jesus" to be historically non-existent." What exactly is a large number? Whatever that number is, is it also safe to say that an even larger number believe him to have actually existed? I'm no self proclaimed expert on this topic but it would seem that if more secular theologians and biblical scholars believed that then it would be a more widely held belief versus a small percentage and even more so in the intellectual circles. I'm agnostic and have done a fair amount of reading from both sides of the street on Christianity and Jesus particularly and can't say I've read a book from the secular side denying he even existed. I've read a lot with differing opinions on the details and timeline of his life but none that out and out denied him to even have existed. To believe he never lived is to then believe that he was created by a group of people as a imaginary figure head that then spawned one of the largest religions in history. More so that the authors of all the letters written to the different churches of the day chronicling his life were complicit in the fraud. I think it is rather easy to dismiss a man for the lack of record of his life when his familiarity came well after his death. Not to mention its not like we can head over to a public records depository from 2k years ago and furthermore that there is no records of probably more 99% of the people that lived and died during the time Jesus was supposed to be alive. Dismissing the beliefs of the Muslim and Jewish religions acknowledgement of Jesus as simply a popularity vote fails to take into account that they more than anyone would benefit from factual proof that he never walked this Earth and state it daily. IMHO it almost takes more of a degree of faith to believe that the man that spawned one of the largest religions in the world was actually just a conspiracy created by a group of people than to even acknowledge he did in fact walk this Earth at one point.
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
VictorCharlie
"There is however a large number of secular theologians and biblical scholars (including me) who've found "Jesus" to be historically non-existent." What exactly is a large number? Whatever that number is, is it also safe to say that an even larger number believe him to have actually existed? I'm no self proclaimed expert on this topic but it would seem that if more secular theologians and biblical scholars believed that then it would be a more widely held belief versus a small percentage and even more so in the intellectual circles. I'm agnostic and have done a fair amount of reading from both sides of the street on Christianity and Jesus particularly and can't say I've read a book from the secular side denying he even existed. I've read a lot with differing opinions on the details and timeline of his life but none that out and out denied him to even have existed. To believe he never lived is to then believe that he was created by a group of people as a imaginary figure head that then spawned one of the largest religions in history. More so that the authors of all the letters written to the different churches of the day chronicling his life were complicit in the fraud. I think it is rather easy to dismiss a man for the lack of record of his life when his familiarity came well after his death. Not to mention its not like we can head over to a public records depository from 2k years ago and furthermore that there is no records of probably more 99% of the people that lived and died during the time Jesus was supposed to be alive. Dismissing the beliefs of the Muslim and Jewish religions acknowledgement of Jesus as simply a popularity vote fails to take into account that they more than anyone would benefit from factual proof that he never walked this Earth and state it daily. IMHO it almost takes more of a degree of faith to believe that the man that spawned one of the largest religions in the world was actually just a conspiracy created by a group of people than to even acknowledge he did in fact walk this Earth at one point.
Charlie, my argument is, there's virtually no secular historical evidence confirming that the jesus depicted in the "gospels" and/or New Testament is anything other than a fabricated character in a religious text/novel. Frankly, I couldn't give a fuck less, what christians, muslims, jews, or anyone else chooses to believe, I don't buy any of that bullshit.
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
....
I don't doubt God's existence anymore. I believe we have a mighty creator.
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Scrap
Mars Ex, for Mans Thumb to be as it is took 4million years to develope, to what it is. They are finding things, Artifacts 200 million years old. Also the Footprint was of a man Humanoid 9 ft tall, in tests it was proved thats what it was, also finding numerous others, we dont know half of it ;D
So much more that is beyond mental comprehension.
In the scale of ourselves to the Universe we are millions times smaller than a microbe is to us! And yet people think "they know" that there is no others out there and the same team of thinkers also claim there is no intelligence behind the balance and timing.They cannot see that there are other balances and other timings out there and within.
People who have insight go within on their search and they find something that people who can only look outwards claim isnt there.
'As above so below' were the wisest words ever written on Earth(For an inquisitive mind).
You get what you look for and you choose your own point of view and the direction you lok in and which way you head;so against the bible and other crap including controlled materialistic thought only; We all do our own saving by our own direction and actions, no one else is magically coming to do it for us whether we believe in them or not.
This is the truth that allows material thinkers to justify it against the false church of man and its changed writings. Those types who run a huge percentage of the worlds people through both man made religions do so for material gain and power over others, so they hide the real truth from all.
Trouble is, the real way has now been blocked twice in two directions, they have been very smart.
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
VictorCharlie
"There is however a large number of secular theologians and biblical scholars (including me) who've found "Jesus" to be historically non-existent." What exactly is a large number? Whatever that number is, is it also safe to say that an even larger number believe him to have actually existed? I'm no self proclaimed expert on this topic but it would seem that if more secular theologians and biblical scholars believed that then it would be a more widely held belief versus a small percentage and even more so in the intellectual circles. I'm agnostic and have done a fair amount of reading from both sides of the street on Christianity and Jesus particularly and can't say I've read a book from the secular side denying he even existed. I've read a lot with differing opinions on the details and timeline of his life but none that out and out denied him to even have existed. To believe he never lived is to then believe that he was created by a group of people as a imaginary figure head that then spawned one of the largest religions in history. More so that the authors of all the letters written to the different churches of the day chronicling his life were complicit in the fraud. I think it is rather easy to dismiss a man for the lack of record of his life when his familiarity came well after his death. Not to mention its not like we can head over to a public records depository from 2k years ago and furthermore that there is no records of probably more 99% of the people that lived and died during the time Jesus was supposed to be alive. Dismissing the beliefs of the Muslim and Jewish religions acknowledgement of Jesus as simply a popularity vote fails to take into account that they more than anyone would benefit from factual proof that he never walked this Earth and state it daily. IMHO it almost takes more of a degree of faith to believe that the man that spawned one of the largest religions in the world was actually just a conspiracy created by a group of people than to even acknowledge he did in fact walk this Earth at one point.
Charlie, my argument is, there's virtually no secular
historical evidence confirming that the jesus depicted in the "gospels" and/or New Testament is anything other than a fabricated character in a religious text/novel. Frankly, I couldn't give a fuck less, what christians, muslims, jews, or anyone else chooses to believe, I don't buy any of that bullshit.
What kind of evidence would convince you though?
It's an historical fact that enough people believed not only that Jesus did exist, but that they also saw him killed and then raised again. So strong was their belief in having witnessed this they happily went to their deaths, being stoned, crucifed, ripped apart by horses and suffering other unimaginable tortures, in order to proclaim the truth of Jesus' death and resurrection.
The fact that the Christian church exists IS proof that Jesus existed. If he didn't, why did his followers all die for this belief?
It's a truly baffling anti religious mindset that tries to deny something that clearly happened as the historical ramifications were immense.
It's as absurd as suggesting William the Conqueror never existed and trying to explain the Battle of Hastings without him.
You simply cannot reasonably argue the birth of the church, under the most intense persecution and in the most violent manner, without accepting they had a founder.
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Andre
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
VictorCharlie
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
I've never, at least in my adult life, had any belief in the existence of "god". Gods/religions are man created concepts, designed to "guide" you though life, thanks, but no thanks, I can think just fine for myself.
Take Jesus for example, who if he actually existed (which I don't believe he did) was just a man, no more "special" than billions of other men, past and present.
It may sound pretentious and sacrilegious of me to a Christian, but why would I want to think like Jesus did or pattern my life after a schizophrenic holy-man who's probably a fictive character in a religious novel?
I get not believing Jesus was the son of god
but history is pretty set that a man named Jesus of Nazareth did in fact walk the Earth and was crucified.
I've done a lot of research on the actual existence of Jesus, the reality is, his alleged existence isn't even close to becoming a forgone conclusion. My guess is Jesus was a composite of rabbis/holy-men that festered during that period in history. One thing that is certain, the "Jesus" character described in the "New Testament", written 50 to 300 years after his alleged death by unknown authors, is pure religious fiction and/or a holy fairytale.
BTW, Nazareth might not have even existed during the time "Jesus" was alleged to have "walked the earth".
Did Jesus exist?
The reason you cant find him by that name is because it wasnt his birth name.
(Some dick heads changed it).
It was Hebrew for a start well Aramaic then Hebrew.
It's not just the name Andre, I believe the "Jesus" character in the New Testament is pure fiction.
I too believe that the story is now changed and totally wrong and fiction but for the reason of deception.
I know the character you speak of, and he didnt get all the deep wisdom that is hidden within some scripture just from the Emerald tablet of Thoth Hermes. The deeper wisdom through love was actually lived out and written down.
Unfortunately it (like scripture) and the first movement, was got to and it is still being controlled as are the masses through it. So to call it all bullshit from an analytical point I dont blame you at all.
But I digress.
Its a hell of a subject :-)
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
VictorCharlie
"There is however a large number of secular theologians and biblical scholars (including me) who've found "Jesus" to be historically non-existent." What exactly is a large number? Whatever that number is, is it also safe to say that an even larger number believe him to have actually existed? I'm no self proclaimed expert on this topic but it would seem that if more secular theologians and biblical scholars believed that then it would be a more widely held belief versus a small percentage and even more so in the intellectual circles. I'm agnostic and have done a fair amount of reading from both sides of the street on Christianity and Jesus particularly and can't say I've read a book from the secular side denying he even existed. I've read a lot with differing opinions on the details and timeline of his life but none that out and out denied him to even have existed. To believe he never lived is to then believe that he was created by a group of people as a imaginary figure head that then spawned one of the largest religions in history. More so that the authors of all the letters written to the different churches of the day chronicling his life were complicit in the fraud. I think it is rather easy to dismiss a man for the lack of record of his life when his familiarity came well after his death. Not to mention its not like we can head over to a public records depository from 2k years ago and furthermore that there is no records of probably more 99% of the people that lived and died during the time Jesus was supposed to be alive. Dismissing the beliefs of the Muslim and Jewish religions acknowledgement of Jesus as simply a popularity vote fails to take into account that they more than anyone would benefit from factual proof that he never walked this Earth and state it daily. IMHO it almost takes more of a degree of faith to believe that the man that spawned one of the largest religions in the world was actually just a conspiracy created by a group of people than to even acknowledge he did in fact walk this Earth at one point.
Charlie, my argument is, there's virtually no secular
historical evidence confirming that the jesus depicted in the "gospels" and/or New Testament is anything other than a fabricated character in a religious text/novel. Frankly, I couldn't give a fuck less, what christians, muslims, jews, or anyone else chooses to believe, I don't buy any of that bullshit.
What kind of evidence would convince you though?
It's an historical fact that enough people believed not only that Jesus did exist, but that they also saw him killed and then raised again. So strong was their belief in having witnessed this they happily went to their deaths, being stoned, crucifed, ripped apart by horses and suffering other unimaginable tortures, in order to proclaim the truth of Jesus' death and resurrection.
The fact that the Christian church exists IS proof that Jesus existed. If he didn't, why did his followers all die for this belief?
It's a truly baffling anti religious mindset that tries to deny something that clearly happened as the historical ramifications were immense.
It's as absurd as suggesting William the Conqueror never existed and trying to explain the Battle of Hastings without him.
You simply cannot reasonably argue the birth of the church, under the most intense persecution and in the most violent manner, without accepting they had a founder.
People throughout history have been willing to die for all manner of bizarre beliefs this does not lead any credence to their beliefs only to their misplaced sincerity. In fact it does not even prove all of their sincerity, some could well be fabricated accounts as are many of the myths relating to the martyrdom of saints. Many Pagans, Jews, Muslims and Atheists have been tortured, skinned alive, burnt and murdered BY Christians, does that mean all their beliefs are grounded in historically irrefutable truths? The true birth of the Christian church happened under the Roman emperor Constantine 300 years after the death of Jesus. The kind of evidence that would convince non-believers would be non-biblical and around the time of Jesus life not 30 years after his death. There is plenty of historical evidence that William the Conqueror existed including eyewitness accounts written while he was alive, whereas the evidence for Jesus is all written by those attaching themselves to his cult and writing years after his death. Through various accounts we have a very clear picture of why the Battle of Hastings occurred unlike the disciples who can not agree on many of the simple details that supposedly happened to Jesus.
-
Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greenbeanz
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
VictorCharlie
"There is however a large number of secular theologians and biblical scholars (including me) who've found "Jesus" to be historically non-existent." What exactly is a large number? Whatever that number is, is it also safe to say that an even larger number believe him to have actually existed? I'm no self proclaimed expert on this topic but it would seem that if more secular theologians and biblical scholars believed that then it would be a more widely held belief versus a small percentage and even more so in the intellectual circles. I'm agnostic and have done a fair amount of reading from both sides of the street on Christianity and Jesus particularly and can't say I've read a book from the secular side denying he even existed. I've read a lot with differing opinions on the details and timeline of his life but none that out and out denied him to even have existed. To believe he never lived is to then believe that he was created by a group of people as a imaginary figure head that then spawned one of the largest religions in history. More so that the authors of all the letters written to the different churches of the day chronicling his life were complicit in the fraud. I think it is rather easy to dismiss a man for the lack of record of his life when his familiarity came well after his death. Not to mention its not like we can head over to a public records depository from 2k years ago and furthermore that there is no records of probably more 99% of the people that lived and died during the time Jesus was supposed to be alive. Dismissing the beliefs of the Muslim and Jewish religions acknowledgement of Jesus as simply a popularity vote fails to take into account that they more than anyone would benefit from factual proof that he never walked this Earth and state it daily. IMHO it almost takes more of a degree of faith to believe that the man that spawned one of the largest religions in the world was actually just a conspiracy created by a group of people than to even acknowledge he did in fact walk this Earth at one point.
Charlie, my argument is, there's virtually no secular
historical evidence confirming that the jesus depicted in the "gospels" and/or New Testament is anything other than a fabricated character in a religious text/novel. Frankly, I couldn't give a fuck less, what christians, muslims, jews, or anyone else chooses to believe, I don't buy any of that bullshit.
What kind of evidence would convince you though?
It's an historical fact that enough people believed not only that Jesus did exist, but that they also saw him killed and then raised again. So strong was their belief in having witnessed this they happily went to their deaths, being stoned, crucifed, ripped apart by horses and suffering other unimaginable tortures, in order to proclaim the truth of Jesus' death and resurrection.
The fact that the Christian church exists IS proof that Jesus existed. If he didn't, why did his followers all die for this belief?
It's a truly baffling anti religious mindset that tries to deny something that clearly happened as the historical ramifications were immense.
It's as absurd as suggesting William the Conqueror never existed and trying to explain the Battle of Hastings without him.
You simply cannot reasonably argue the birth of the church, under the most intense persecution and in the most violent manner, without accepting they had a founder.
People throughout history have been willing to die for all manner of bizarre beliefs this does not lead any credence to their beliefs only to their misplaced sincerity. In fact it does not even prove all of their sincerity, some could well be fabricated accounts as are many of the myths relating to the martyrdom of saints. Many Pagans, Jews, Muslims and Atheists have been tortured, skinned alive, burnt and murdered BY Christians, does that mean all their beliefs are grounded in historically irrefutable truths? The true birth of the Christian church happened under the Roman emperor Constantine 300 years after the death of Jesus. The kind of evidence that would convince non-believers would be non-biblical and around the time of Jesus life not 30 years after his death. There is plenty of historical evidence that William the Conqueror existed including eyewitness accounts written while he was alive, whereas the evidence for Jesus is all written by those attaching themselves to his cult and writing years after his death. Through various accounts we have a very clear picture of why the Battle of Hastings occurred unlike the disciples who can not agree on many of the simple details that supposedly happened to Jesus.
Tell us a few then. What other massive worldwide faiths and movements have people sacrificed themselves to proclaim that were founded on absolutely nothing at all?
Please tell me the scenario of how this worked. Ok, so Jesus didn't exist. He never was. So why did he have followers? Or did his first followers not exist either?
It's a completely ludicrous logic you are using. Anyway, as you said above, this kind of worldwide faith movement without a founder happens all the time so just remind me of the other ones.
Why did Tacitus a Roman Historian, and Josephus, a Jew mention this non existant man in their works?
-
Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
VictorCharlie
.
Charlie, my argument is, there's virtually no secular
historical evidence confirming that the jesus depicted in the "gospels" and/or New Testament is anything other than a fabricated character in a religious text/novel. Frankly, I couldn't give a fuck less, what christians, muslims, jews, or anyone else chooses to believe, I don't buy any of that bullshit.
What kind of evidence would convince you though?
It's an historical fact that enough people believed not only that Jesus did exist, but that they also saw him killed and then raised again. So strong was their belief in having witnessed this they happily went to their deaths, being stoned, crucifed, ripped apart by horses and suffering other unimaginable tortures, in order to proclaim the truth of Jesus' death and resurrection.
The fact that the Christian church exists IS proof that Jesus existed. If he didn't, why did his followers all die for this belief?
It's a truly baffling anti religious mindset that tries to deny something that clearly happened as the historical ramifications were immense.
It's as absurd as suggesting William the Conqueror never existed and trying to explain the Battle of Hastings without him.
You simply cannot reasonably argue the birth of the church, under the most intense persecution and in the most violent manner, without accepting they had a founder.
It's pretty obvious that you've bought it all hook, line and sinker Bilbo. :biteit:
It's also obvious that you're oblivious to the fact that there's not the slightest bit of physical evidence to support a historical Jesus.
I hope this helps.
-
Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
VictorCharlie
"There is however a large number of secular theologians and biblical scholars (including me) who've found "Jesus" to be historically non-existent." What exactly is a large number? Whatever that number is, is it also safe to say that an even larger number believe him to have actually existed? I'm no self proclaimed expert on this topic but it would seem that if more secular theologians and biblical scholars believed that then it would be a more widely held belief versus a small percentage and even more so in the intellectual circles. I'm agnostic and have done a fair amount of reading from both sides of the street on Christianity and Jesus particularly and can't say I've read a book from the secular side denying he even existed. I've read a lot with differing opinions on the details and timeline of his life but none that out and out denied him to even have existed. To believe he never lived is to then believe that he was created by a group of people as a imaginary figure head that then spawned one of the largest religions in history. More so that the authors of all the letters written to the different churches of the day chronicling his life were complicit in the fraud. I think it is rather easy to dismiss a man for the lack of record of his life when his familiarity came well after his death. Not to mention its not like we can head over to a public records depository from 2k years ago and furthermore that there is no records of probably more 99% of the people that lived and died during the time Jesus was supposed to be alive. Dismissing the beliefs of the Muslim and Jewish religions acknowledgement of Jesus as simply a popularity vote fails to take into account that they more than anyone would benefit from factual proof that he never walked this Earth and state it daily. IMHO it almost takes more of a degree of faith to believe that the man that spawned one of the largest religions in the world was actually just a conspiracy created by a group of people than to even acknowledge he did in fact walk this Earth at one point.
Charlie, my argument is, there's virtually no secular
historical evidence confirming that the jesus depicted in the "gospels" and/or New Testament is anything other than a fabricated character in a religious text/novel. Frankly, I couldn't give a fuck less, what christians, muslims, jews, or anyone else chooses to believe, I don't buy any of that bullshit.
What kind of evidence would convince you though?
It's an historical fact that enough people believed not only that Jesus did exist, but that they also saw him killed and then raised again. So strong was their belief in having witnessed this they happily went to their deaths, being stoned, crucifed, ripped apart by horses and suffering other unimaginable tortures, in order to proclaim the truth of Jesus' death and resurrection.
The fact that the Christian church exists IS proof that Jesus existed. If he didn't, why did his followers all die for this belief?
It's a truly baffling anti religious mindset that tries to deny something that clearly happened as the historical ramifications were immense.
It's as absurd as suggesting William the Conqueror never existed and trying to explain the Battle of Hastings without him.
You simply cannot reasonably argue the birth of the church, under the most intense persecution and in the most violent manner, without accepting they had a founder.
It's pretty obvious that you've bought it all hook, line and sinker Bilbo. :biteit::biteit:
It's also obvious that you're oblivious to the fact that there's not the slightest bit of physical evidence to support a historical Jesus.
I hope this helps.
Bought what hook, line and sinker? I've said nothing about the divinity of Christ here, His mission, the accuracy of the Gospels. I'm just using simple logic to prove that He must have existed.
Please give me a single example in human history of a movement that is grounded in actual history not having a founder.
-
Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Charlie, my argument is, there's virtually no secular historical evidence confirming that the jesus depicted in the "gospels" and/or New Testament is anything other than a fabricated character in a religious text/novel. Frankly, I couldn't give a fuck less, what christians, muslims, jews, or anyone else chooses to believe, I don't buy any of that bullshit.
What kind of evidence would convince you though?
It's an historical fact that enough people believed not only that Jesus did exist, but that they also saw him killed and then raised again. So strong was their belief in having witnessed this they happily went to their deaths, being stoned, crucifed, ripped apart by horses and suffering other unimaginable tortures, in order to proclaim the truth of Jesus' death and resurrection.
The fact that the Christian church exists IS proof that Jesus existed. If he didn't, why did his followers all die for this belief?
It's a truly baffling anti religious mindset that tries to deny something that clearly happened as the historical ramifications were immense.
It's as absurd as suggesting William the Conqueror never existed and trying to explain the Battle of Hastings without him.
You simply cannot reasonably argue the birth of the church, under the most intense persecution and in the most violent manner, without accepting they had a founder.
It's pretty obvious that you've bought it all hook, line and sinker Bilbo. :biteit::biteit:
It's also obvious that you're oblivious to the fact that there's not the slightest bit of physical evidence to support a historical Jesus.
I hope this helps.
Bought what hook, line and sinker? I've said nothing about the divinity of Christ here, His mission, the accuracy of the Gospels. I'm just using simple logic to prove that He must have existed.
Please give me a single example in human history of a movement that is grounded in
actual history not having a founder.
Don't you find it a bit odd that "the founder" of Christianity never actually wrote anything himself? And don't you find it a bit suspicious that virtually nothing was written about the alleged Jesus during his lifetime? Here's a dude who's alleged to have spoke to multitudes of followers all over the "holyland", but no contemporary author writes a fucking word about him? Give a break man...
Oh, and Bilbo, please tell me who all these "eyewitnesses" are, fictitious characters in the gospels?
PS. Clue: an eyewitness is someone who witnesses an event, et al, it becomes "hearsay" when someone else writes about what an "eyewitness" has alleged to have seen (but didn't write about themselves) 50 to 100 years later.
-
Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Charlie, my argument is, there's virtually no secular historical evidence confirming that the jesus depicted in the "gospels" and/or New Testament is anything other than a fabricated character in a religious text/novel. Frankly, I couldn't give a fuck less, what christians, muslims, jews, or anyone else chooses to believe, I don't buy any of that bullshit.
What kind of evidence would convince you though?
It's an historical fact that enough people believed not only that Jesus did exist, but that they also saw him killed and then raised again. So strong was their belief in having witnessed this they happily went to their deaths, being stoned, crucifed, ripped apart by horses and suffering other unimaginable tortures, in order to proclaim the truth of Jesus' death and resurrection.
The fact that the Christian church exists IS proof that Jesus existed. If he didn't, why did his followers all die for this belief?
It's a truly baffling anti religious mindset that tries to deny something that clearly happened as the historical ramifications were immense.
It's as absurd as suggesting William the Conqueror never existed and trying to explain the Battle of Hastings without him.
You simply cannot reasonably argue the birth of the church, under the most intense persecution and in the most violent manner, without accepting they had a founder.
It's pretty obvious that you've bought it all hook, line and sinker Bilbo. :biteit::biteit:
It's also obvious that you're oblivious to the fact that there's not the slightest bit of physical evidence to support a historical Jesus.
I hope this helps.
Bought what hook, line and sinker? I've said nothing about the divinity of Christ here, His mission, the accuracy of the Gospels. I'm just using simple logic to prove that He must have existed.
Please give me a single example in human history of a movement that is grounded in
actual history not having a founder.
Don't you find it a bit odd that "the founder" of Christianity never actually wrote anything himself? And don't you find it a bit suspicious that virtually nothing was written about the alleged Jesus during his lifetime? Here's a dude who's speaking to the multitudes all over the holyland, but no contemporary author writes a fucking word about him? Give a break man...
Oh, and Bilbo, please tell me who all these "eyewitnesses" are, fictitious characters in the gospels?
Why is it odd that there were no writings? He wasn't a nobleman of aristocratic birth. He didn't hold a high office during his earthly life, he was a travelling preacher and healer of the sick. The imperial powers and those of importance would have largely disregarded him during his life. He mixed with the downtrodden, coomon folk, the kinds that don't generally leave much in the way of historical record.
What do you think of the writings of Socrates? He musn't have existed either seeing as nithing remains and we only have the records of his followers.
What about Pythagorus?
It's very common in the ancient world for there to be no information and writings from a great historical figure. Their work is remembered and passed down by their followers and later historians.
This doesn't mean it's not authentic. They are still the product of the world they lived in, and cannot simply be invented.
If, as you suggest Jesus didn't exist then why did people believe he did 40 years later? How did his followers, or whoever wanted to create this ruse manage to invent a figure who performed miracles throughout Israel with thousands of witnesses, and place him 40 years previously when there would still be people alive from that time to challenge it?
If you have any understanding at all of Jewish history, you would know that they take their history very very seriously indeed. At that time all the Jewish people could trace their ancestory back to one of the twelve tribes, they were meticulous. You could no more invent an historical figure back then than you could now.
Imagine somebody trying to invent a great figure now from 1970 and giving them a back story and claiming a huge national impact. How could it happen? :confused:
Jesus' sayings and teachings were passed on orally, just as virtually all sayings and the like were back then. It was an ancient, rural community, they had no ipads, internet, typwriters,or even paper. There was no printing press. Writings were written down on massive scrolls and parchments, an expensive and arduous undertaken.
The fact that his story was deemed so important tthat it was written down (and not by one person but many seperately) attests to the impact that the man had.
To say that because he left no written evidence therefore he didn't exist is simply an idiotic conclusion. You might just as well say the same about a tyrannosaur.
-
Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Charlie, my argument is, there's virtually no secular historical evidence confirming that the jesus depicted in the "gospels" and/or New Testament is anything other than a fabricated character in a religious text/novel. Frankly, I couldn't give a fuck less, what christians, muslims, jews, or anyone else chooses to believe, I don't buy any of that bullshit.
What kind of evidence would convince you though?
It's an historical fact that enough people believed not only that Jesus did exist, but that they also saw him killed and then raised again. So strong was their belief in having witnessed this they happily went to their deaths, being stoned, crucifed, ripped apart by horses and suffering other unimaginable tortures, in order to proclaim the truth of Jesus' death and resurrection.
The fact that the Christian church exists IS proof that Jesus existed. If he didn't, why did his followers all die for this belief?
It's a truly baffling anti religious mindset that tries to deny something that clearly happened as the historical ramifications were immense.
It's as absurd as suggesting William the Conqueror never existed and trying to explain the Battle of Hastings without him.
You simply cannot reasonably argue the birth of the church, under the most intense persecution and in the most violent manner, without accepting they had a founder.
It's pretty obvious that you've bought it all hook, line and sinker Bilbo. :biteit::biteit:
It's also obvious that you're oblivious to the fact that there's not the slightest bit of physical evidence to support a historical Jesus.
I hope this helps.
Bought what hook, line and sinker? I've said nothing about the divinity of Christ here, His mission, the accuracy of the Gospels. I'm just using simple logic to prove that He must have existed.
Please give me a single example in human history of a movement that is grounded in
actual history not having a founder.
Don't you find it a bit odd that "the founder" of Christianity never actually wrote anything himself? And don't you find it a bit suspicious that virtually nothing was written about the alleged Jesus during his lifetime? Here's a dude who's alleged to have spoke to multitudes of followers all over the "holyland", but no contemporary author writes a fucking word about him? Give a break man...
Oh, and Bilbo, please tell me who all these "eyewitnesses" are, fictitious characters in the gospels?
PS. Clue: an eyewitness is someone who witnesses an event, et al, it becomes "hearsay" when someone else writes about what an eyewitness alleges to have seen (but didn't write about themselves) 50 to 100 years later.
Let's just look at this bit to see how silly it is.
Could you invent a character now from 50 years ago? Forget about television and written evidence, just imagine you live in a small isolated village with no tv, no radio, no written records, just people's memories.
Now imagine that you want to invent a miraculous man who 50 years ago came into the village and healed everybody, claimed to be God, was crucified and rose from the dead.
He's not real, you've just made him up now but you want everyone to believe it.
Now there will be people in that village who have lived there for 50 years. They will also have had children and grandchildren, and presumably uf they witnessed such things then they would most definitely have passed this information on to their own children right?
So how would it have been forgotten in the 50 years from when it happened to when you made up the story?
You can't make up history and then retroactively transplant it back in time, because if he really did perform miracles in Gallilee for example it's a fair bet that 50 years later people would remember them!
Seriously can you not see how retarded this idea of yours is?
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Seriously can you not see how retarded this idea of yours is?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So anyone one that doesn't agree with you is silly and retarded? And here I thought that miles was the only condescending, know it all, asshole on this forum. - debate/discussion over.
-
Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Quote:
Seriously can you not see how retarded this idea of yours is?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So anyone one that doesn't agree with you is silly and retarded? And here I thought that miles was the only condescending, know it all, asshole on this forum. - debate/discussion over.
It's not about agreeing with me. Claiming Jesus never existed is like me saying dinosaurs never existed. It IS moronic.
Just think it through logically.
The Jews were no friends of the Christians, who they saw as an heretical cult. They also lived in Israel for hundreds of years, and most were not very socially mobile, thus living in villages for generations.
How is it possible for someone to invent a character 50/60 years previously,make grandiose claims of miraculous healings, thousands of followers, a public execution and then a claimed resurrection and then place him in the very villages that these Jews are living.
Do you not think that some of them might go 'Hang on a minute, we are living here at the time, this bloke never came around our way!'.
Again I ask you, if they made him up 50 years later, why did the Jewish people collude in this grand delusion and seemingly accept that this man really did live, even though presumably nobody had any memory of him whatsoever? :confused:
If this really is the extent of your though on this matter, then I repeat it is retarded.
No offence of course.
The birth of the Christian church is proof positive of the existence of the historical figure of Christ. It simply never would have got off the ground had the whole story been fabricated out of thin air.
Now I'm not saying anything concerning the Bible being true, or the gospels accurately portraying him, that is a matter of faith. But it cannot seriously be debated that he didn't exist at all.
-
Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Quote:
Seriously can you not see how retarded this idea of yours is?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So anyone one that doesn't agree with you is silly and retarded? And here I thought that miles was the only condescending, know it all, asshole on this forum. - debate/discussion over.
It's not about agreeing with me. Claiming Jesus never existed is like me saying dinosaurs never existed. It IS moronic.
Just think it through logically.
The Jews were no friends of the Christians, who they saw as an heretical cult. They also lived in Israel for hundreds of years, and most were not very socially mobile, thus living in villages for generations.
How is it possible for someone to invent a character 50/60 years previously,make grandiose claims of miraculous healings, thousands of followers, a public execution and then a claimed resurrection and then place him in the very villages that these Jews are living.
Do you not think that some of them might go 'Hang on a minute, we are living here at the time, this bloke never came around our way!'.
Again I ask you, if they made him up 50 years later, why did the Jewish people collude in this grand delusion and seemingly accept that this man really did live, even though presumably nobody had any memory of him whatsoever? :confused:
If this really is the extent of your though on this matter, then
I repeat it is retarded.
No offence of course.
The birth of the Christian church is proof positive of the existence of the historical figure of Christ. It simply never would have got off the ground had the whole story been fabricated out of thin air.
Now I'm not saying anything concerning the Bible being true, or the gospels accurately portraying him, that is a matter of faith. But it cannot seriously be debated that he didn't exist at all.
Right, and I hope you're not offended that i've put your pretentious/arrogant ass on ignore.
-
Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Quote:
Seriously can you not see how retarded this idea of yours is?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So anyone one that doesn't agree with you is silly and retarded? And here I thought that miles was the only condescending, know it all, asshole on this forum. - debate/discussion over.
It's not about agreeing with me. Claiming Jesus never existed is like me saying dinosaurs never existed. It IS moronic.
Just think it through logically.
The Jews were no friends of the Christians, who they saw as an heretical cult. They also lived in Israel for hundreds of years, and most were not very socially mobile, thus living in villages for generations.
How is it possible for someone to invent a character 50/60 years previously,make grandiose claims of miraculous healings, thousands of followers, a public execution and then a claimed resurrection and then place him in the very villages that these Jews are living.
Do you not think that some of them might go 'Hang on a minute, we are living here at the time, this bloke never came around our way!'.
Again I ask you, if they made him up 50 years later, why did the Jewish people collude in this grand delusion and seemingly accept that this man really did live, even though presumably nobody had any memory of him whatsoever? :confused:
If this really is the extent of your though on this matter, then
I repeat it is retarded.
No offence of course.
The birth of the Christian church is proof positive of the existence of the historical figure of Christ. It simply never would have got off the ground had the whole story been fabricated out of thin air.
Now I'm not saying anything concerning the Bible being true, or the gospels accurately portraying him, that is a matter of faith. But it cannot seriously be debated that he didn't exist at all.
Right, and I hope you're not offended that i've put your pretentious/arrogant ass on ignore.
Not offended at all, another one bites the dust.
-
Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Quote:
Seriously can you not see how retarded this idea of yours is?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So anyone one that doesn't agree with you is silly and retarded? And here I thought that miles was the only condescending, know it all, asshole on this forum. - debate/discussion over.
It's not about agreeing with me. Claiming Jesus never existed is like me saying dinosaurs never existed. It IS moronic.
Just think it through logically.
The Jews were no friends of the Christians, who they saw as an heretical cult. They also lived in Israel for hundreds of years, and most were not very socially mobile, thus living in villages for generations.
How is it possible for someone to invent a character 50/60 years previously,make grandiose claims of miraculous healings, thousands of followers, a public execution and then a claimed resurrection and then place him in the very villages that these Jews are living.
Do you not think that some of them might go 'Hang on a minute, we are living here at the time, this bloke never came around our way!'.
Again I ask you, if they made him up 50 years later, why did the Jewish people collude in this grand delusion and seemingly accept that this man really did live, even though presumably nobody had any memory of him whatsoever? :confused:
If this really is the extent of your though on this matter, then I repeat it is retarded.
No offence of course.
The birth of the Christian church is proof positive of the existence of the historical figure of Christ. It simply never would have got off the ground had the whole story been fabricated out of thin air.
Now I'm not saying anything concerning the Bible being true, or the gospels accurately portraying him, that is a matter of faith. But it cannot seriously be debated that he didn't exist at all.
The Jewish religion was originally against the Desposni. When Rome took over the practices from those who had been taught by the Desposni, then they were called Christian. They never took over the Desposni, as they went underground the Roman Church then took over and sculptured their way: Pauline Christianity.
Desposyni Church | Welcome
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
VictorCharlie
"There is however a large number of secular theologians and biblical scholars (including me) who've found "Jesus" to be historically non-existent." What exactly is a large number? Whatever that number is, is it also safe to say that an even larger number believe him to have actually existed? I'm no self proclaimed expert on this topic but it would seem that if more secular theologians and biblical scholars believed that then it would be a more widely held belief versus a small percentage and even more so in the intellectual circles. I'm agnostic and have done a fair amount of reading from both sides of the street on Christianity and Jesus particularly and can't say I've read a book from the secular side denying he even existed. I've read a lot with differing opinions on the details and timeline of his life but none that out and out denied him to even have existed. To believe he never lived is to then believe that he was created by a group of people as a imaginary figure head that then spawned one of the largest religions in history. More so that the authors of all the letters written to the different churches of the day chronicling his life were complicit in the fraud. I think it is rather easy to dismiss a man for the lack of record of his life when his familiarity came well after his death. Not to mention its not like we can head over to a public records depository from 2k years ago and furthermore that there is no records of probably more 99% of the people that lived and died during the time Jesus was supposed to be alive. Dismissing the beliefs of the Muslim and Jewish religions acknowledgement of Jesus as simply a popularity vote fails to take into account that they more than anyone would benefit from factual proof that he never walked this Earth and state it daily. IMHO it almost takes more of a degree of faith to believe that the man that spawned one of the largest religions in the world was actually just a conspiracy created by a group of people than to even acknowledge he did in fact walk this Earth at one point.
Charlie, my argument is, there's virtually no secular
historical evidence confirming that the jesus depicted in the "gospels" and/or New Testament is anything other than a fabricated character in a religious text/novel. Frankly, I couldn't give a fuck less, what christians, muslims, jews, or anyone else chooses to believe, I don't buy any of that bullshit.
What kind of evidence would convince you though?
It's an historical fact that enough people believed not only that Jesus did exist, but that they also saw him killed and then raised again. So strong was their belief in having witnessed this they happily went to their deaths, being stoned, crucifed, ripped apart by horses and suffering other unimaginable tortures, in order to proclaim the truth of Jesus' death and resurrection.
The fact that the Christian church exists IS proof that Jesus existed. If he didn't, why did his followers all die for this belief?
It's a truly baffling anti religious mindset that tries to deny something that clearly happened as the historical ramifications were immense.
It's as absurd as suggesting William the Conqueror never existed and trying to explain the Battle of Hastings without him.
You simply cannot reasonably argue the birth of the church, under the most intense persecution and in the most violent manner, without accepting they had a founder.
Obviously something massive went down, otherwise we would not have the dates as BC and AD.
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
VictorCharlie
"There is however a large number of secular theologians and biblical scholars (including me) who've found "Jesus" to be historically non-existent." What exactly is a large number? Whatever that number is, is it also safe to say that an even larger number believe him to have actually existed? I'm no self proclaimed expert on this topic but it would seem that if more secular theologians and biblical scholars believed that then it would be a more widely held belief versus a small percentage and even more so in the intellectual circles. I'm agnostic and have done a fair amount of reading from both sides of the street on Christianity and Jesus particularly and can't say I've read a book from the secular side denying he even existed. I've read a lot with differing opinions on the details and timeline of his life but none that out and out denied him to even have existed. To believe he never lived is to then believe that he was created by a group of people as a imaginary figure head that then spawned one of the largest religions in history. More so that the authors of all the letters written to the different churches of the day chronicling his life were complicit in the fraud. I think it is rather easy to dismiss a man for the lack of record of his life when his familiarity came well after his death. Not to mention its not like we can head over to a public records depository from 2k years ago and furthermore that there is no records of probably more 99% of the people that lived and died during the time Jesus was supposed to be alive. Dismissing the beliefs of the Muslim and Jewish religions acknowledgement of Jesus as simply a popularity vote fails to take into account that they more than anyone would benefit from factual proof that he never walked this Earth and state it daily. IMHO it almost takes more of a degree of faith to believe that the man that spawned one of the largest religions in the world was actually just a conspiracy created by a group of people than to even acknowledge he did in fact walk this Earth at one point.
Charlie, my argument is, there's virtually no secular
historical evidence confirming that the jesus depicted in the "gospels" and/or New Testament is anything other than a fabricated character in a religious text/novel. Frankly, I couldn't give a fuck less, what christians, muslims, jews, or anyone else chooses to believe, I don't buy any of that bullshit.
Could one not also state that there is no secular historical evidence confirming he didn't exist? Also you didn't answer my question. What percentage of historians believe Jesus to be a fictional character?
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Seriously, your putting Bilbo on ignore for calling you a retard? You got to have thicker skin man and you didn't even attempt to refute his points. Mars got owned in the argument and is taking his toys and going home. :lolhaha:
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Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
VictorCharlie
Seriously, your putting Bilbo on ignore for calling you a retard? You got to have thicker skin man and you didn't even attempt to refute his points. Mars got owned in the argument and is taking his toys and going home. :lolhaha:
I'll have a discussion with anybody about anything as long they don't start debating like a condescending douche. When they do that ends it, I'm not gonna debate some blithering, insulting jack-off.
FYI, I was born in post war Japan 1948 and spent the first 18 years of my life on military bases, I joined the military in 1967 during the VietNam war and got out in 1971. I'm not going to bore you with the rest of my life's story, but I can promise you this soldier boy, having thin skin ain't one of my fucking problems. So take your toys, and stick 'um up yer ass.
