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Interesting post by Cressa121 on the "Dempsey; 3 years without a fight" thread regarding the effectiveness of plaster of Paris handwraps. Apparently, in an experiment in 1964, it was determined that after a few punches the plaster would crumble inside the gloves and do more damage to the guy throwing the punches than to the guy catching them.
Well...Maybe he knew he wouldn't beat Mosley and after toiling and scratching and clawing his way to the peak of career feared losing it to the point of taking drastic and dispicable means to hold onto it :cwm13: Hey man just a spin as none of us will ever know. Then again he ripped Sebastian Lujans ear off his head and he looks exactly like Cotto so who knows. Wraps or not he wasn't beating Mosley....he wasn't hitting Mosley and Shane was hammering that nail from the very beginning.
I'm glad they are making rematch. Give Cotto a shot to erase the ghosts. Both have been in the meat grinder and busted up badly since. I can't get past the added weight helping Cotto more in power but styalistcally I think we'll see a repeat of first fight. Can see Cotto standng in more and again taking damage sheely on volume and angles Tony has, then looking for backfoot and being square on ropes. As much as some say Cotto being busted up badly translates to Tony having loaded wraps...should Cotto take same damage does it mean he was clean? He's already done the damage to career, wears a scarlet letter and something tells me it wont change any minds one way or the other. If Margarito and camp thinks a rematch win erases all doubts they are kidding themselves.
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Originally Posted by Spicoli
I thought I'd bold that particular part. I'm of the opinion that when you've been caught cheating once, it casts reasonable doubts over previous fights as well. The damage to Cotto's face was too extensive. He had been cut before, but never busted up that bad. And this from relatively few rounds, as Cotto was easily dominating the first half of the fight. Margarito should thank his lucky stars he's been allowed anywhere near a boxing ring. Regardless of the outcome, Margarito is scarred for life.
.....I would ask how that study was conducted. Because if that was "fact" then why would trainers continue to load their fighters wraps???Quote:
Originally Posted by greynotsoold
I'm sure what they use now for paris is a whole lot different from when they used in 1964, as well as no trainer would make the wrap out of plaster. I would think you're going to use the plaster at your knuckle guards only and use the gauze to in case the plaster so that it stays hard while you're destroying someones face.Quote:
Originally Posted by greynotsoold
I also completely agree w/another poster saying that the confidence you have knowing you're a cheater and that once the bricks harden, you'll be able to defeat your opponent, so you'll be WAY more willing to take a punch of 20, so that you can give 5 that feel like 100.
Some may disagree, but to those that disagree, I'd have to ask if you've actually laced up before and got in the ring? If you have, you know that this boxing or combat sport is 80% mental. If your confidence screams "I rule the world" and you're able to deliver a shocking hit, you're going to win a lot of fights.
How do the wraps harden in the time between being applied and the fight starting?
Paris/Casts tend to get compared to concrete, simply because it has the same characteristics. Both are powdery in it's "natural" state, once mixed an applied, it will be like water(think bruce lee), it can bend and adapt. Once this stuff dries over time, it hardens. So what you have in the beginning process of wrapping a guys hand is a plaster substance, similar to paper mache. You line your fighters knuckles up, wrap plaster so it cushions your fighters hand(like bushings on a car) and in a way that the hardened material is closer to the skin of the glove.Quote:
Originally Posted by greynotsoold
When you think about the thought process that would go into doing such a thing, it's disgusting. I hate margarito and top rank for letting that POS back into the boxing world.
The test was to do with the Dempsey-Willard fight and Doc Kearns' explanation as to how he'd loaded Dempsey's wraps. Here's the excerpt from the article:Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong.....I would ask how that study was conducted. Because if that was "fact" then why would trainers continue to load their fighters wraps???Quote:
Originally Posted by greynotsoold
I think with Margarito it was small blocks of plaster that were in his wraps, not the wraps themselves that were hardened, or am I wrong there? Also, in the Boxing Illustrated test the time the plaster had to properly harden was short, to try and replicate Kearns' recollection. With Margarito the blocks would have had longer to harden so my be less susceptible to crumble? I'm not that clued up on the make up of plaster of paris, so I don't know whether it would always crumble or the length of time it has to harden has a bearing on whether it does crumble or not. I think what carpetrepairhouston posted is right, that they'd be loaded differently now in comparison to 1919.Quote:
According to Kearns this is how he loaded Dempsey’s gloves, “I quickly wound on Dempsey’s bandages under Moynahan’s vigilant inspection. After I finished with the wrappings I turned to Jimmy DeForest, my trainer, and pointed to the water bucket. “Give me that sponge well soaked with water”, I ordered, “I want to keep the kids hands cool.” The sponge, dripping with water, made a sloshing sound as I clamped it to the bandages on Dempsey’s hands. In a moment they were drenched through. “Now the talcum powder,” I directed DeForest, and he passed me the innocent looking can. I sprinkled the contents heavily over the bandages.” Moyhanan made no comment. Dempsey, who was entirely innocent of what had happened, stood there in almost a stupor. I had to smile as a call came to enter the ring.”
That is how Kearns said he loaded Dempsey’s gloves without the fighter knowing anything about it. But is such a thing possible? One must first ask is it possible for Dempsey to have entered into the ring without gloves, which the film and still photos clearly prove, and the referee and principles not noticing the hardening substance on his hand wraps? More importantly is plaster of paris a good and efficient way to load a pair of gloves?
Boxing Illustrated conducted an experiment to test whether it was possible to use plaster of paris successfully under fighting conditions. The results were reported in the May 1964 issue of BI, pp 20-24, 66. Hugh Benbow and Perry Payne (manager and trainer of Cleveland Williams) used plaster of paris on Cleveland's hands and reenacted what Kearns said occurred in Dempsey's dressing room. After 35 minutes of toasting to reenact the 114-degree heat of Toledo that day, Cleveland Williams hit the heavy bag five times. Benbow examined the wraps and found that the plaster had cracked and crumbled. "This stuff." said Cleve, "wouldn't do anybody any good."
The Boxing Illustrated test proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the plaster of paris would not have held up after the first punch, it would have crumbled and left chunks in his mitts and every punch thereafter would have been quite painful and there is little doubt he would have broken his hands. The inventor of the product issued a statement as to the impossibility of using plaster of paris without breaking all the bones in the hands. Dempsey’s hands were not broken and he continued to punch with authority with both hands. This alone dispels the idea that Dempsey’s gloves were loaded with plaster of paris.
On to the main question from the thread, I want to believe Margarito is innocent and hadn't used them before, but that would be naive. Just because its the first time he was caught doesn't mean its the first time he'd tried it. I guess only he and his trainer will know for certain whether it was an innocent mix up or they'd tried it before, but I find it hard to believe that he'd choose to load his gloves for the first time against a 38 year old Shane Mosley when he'd just been in with an unbeaten, prime fighter who had recently beaten Mosley.
I think this is the most important part of any debate or conversation with Margo and the wraps. Why wait this long?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cressa121
That's something that has me wondering: if, in fact, this is happening, how widespread is it? It was, what, nearly 30 years between the Resto and Margarito episodes? Were these the only two, and they got caught, or, as seems to be somewhat of a consensus here, Margarito has been doing it all along, was he the only one? I'd bet that over the course of his career he has had more than one trainer, so was it his idea? Did these guys do it with other fighters before and after Margarito?Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong.....I would ask how that study was conducted. Because if that was "fact" then why would trainers continue to load their fighters wraps???Quote:
Originally Posted by greynotsoold
In years around this, I've seen trainers pull all kinds of things to give their fighters advantages (real or perceived) even in sparring sessions. There are a ton of less than scrupulous characters around so I guess anything is possible.
I wonder what the opinions would be if Margarito once again beat Cotto the very same way:confused:.
The problem now becomes, other than Rito fanboys, almost everyone know's Cotto is a battered woman right now. He fights for the check and what's left of his ego, but you can see he's no where what he was before the assault. Freddie, Mike Tyson, and others see that Cotto hasn't been the same, I think this fight is pointless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chino
Cotto wins, really doesn't prove anything because then they'll say "well duh, it's the same fight just w/o the cheating"
Cotto loses, then "well he was damaged goods anyway"
Rito Wins "cotto was damaged goods and it still doesn't give him the "approval""
Rito Loses see first comment.
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Originally Posted by carpetrepairhoustonThe problem now becomes, other than Rito fanboys, almost everyone know's Cotto is a battered woman right now. He fights for the check and what's left of his ego, but you can see he's no where what he was before the assault. Freddie, Mike Tyson, and others see that Cotto hasn't been the same, I think this fight is pointless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chino
Cotto wins, really doesn't prove anything because then they'll say "well duh, it's the same fight just w/o the cheating"
Cotto loses, then "well he was damaged goods anyway"
Rito Wins "cotto was damaged goods and it still doesn't give him the "approval""
Rito Loses see first comment.
Good point, I suppose we can only hope Margarito breaks his hand. ;)
We use plaster of paris or casting plaster at work .(both same thing) Goes off naturally in about 20 min.Quote:
Originally Posted by greynotsoold
If you stir the crap out of it,it goes off hard in 10 minutes when it broke down it would form a support between the knuckles even when damp and would add to the weight of punch a bit too.
If you want it to go off real slow you piss in it, if you want it to go off faster you put alkaline in it like white cement powder then it goes off in about 5 minutes.
I'm hoping Cotto gets injured during training camp and retires for good. I'm a huge fan and watching him fight now just bothers me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre
Yep be terrible to see him retire mid fight, broken.
I wouldnt like to be in Miguels shoes (physiologically) building up for this fight.
Thats kinda short changing Cotto yeh. I think he genuinely wants revenge and is not just scalping for a payday. Do you mean Mike Tysons ringside interview 3 sheets to the wind about Cotto and Mayorga being "not the same"? Talk about stones in a glass house ehh Mike ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by carpetrepairhoustonThe problem now becomes, other than Rito fanboys, almost everyone know's Cotto is a battered woman right now. He fights for the check and what's left of his ego, but you can see he's no where what he was before the assault. Freddie, Mike Tyson, and others see that Cotto hasn't been the same, I think this fight is pointless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chino
Cotto wins, really doesn't prove anything because then they'll say "well duh, it's the same fight just w/o the cheating"
Cotto loses, then "well he was damaged goods anyway"
Rito Wins "cotto was damaged goods and it still doesn't give him the "approval""
Rito Loses see first comment.
Boxing is a sport that even at its safest is still dangerous and can casue death.
With this in mind only in the fucked up sport of boxing would sombody be alowed to fight again after getting caught doing what AM did.His opponents could and still might have long term damage because of his action.
Margrito is a selfish prick who in my eyes at least has got away with assualt using a weapon.
I voted not sure. I think he did, but, I'm not sure.
I think if Cotto wins whether he boxes or slugs it out it is going to be a huge deal just because of how he lost the first fight.....if Margarito wins then of course the excuses come out but if Cotto wins its a huge huge deal.
I don't get why people say Cotto is so washed up....under Manny he's going to take a while to adjust. I for one would rather he take another fight before the Margarito rematch just so he gets fully used to Manny as his trainer.
Good morning/afternoon gentlemen. Evening to the Brits. This seemed as good a thread as any to make my first post. Nice site. Lots of boxing savvy people here. Excuse my long winded first post. Although there is no physical evidence glove specific on the question of whether he cheated or not prior to the Shane incident, there is physical evidence imo symbiotic somewhat with the circumstantial. It’s certainly not hard to formulate the theory that he did. The conclusion I have drawn is that he most certainly did.
I first took notice and started to wonder after the fight with Lujan. How do you rip a man’s ear off? Fluke accident? I think not and given what has taken place since my cynicism would seem justified. The second Santo’s fight was quite a set back, I believe Lujan was the guinea pig of sorts and that’s when they started to cheat. In my opinion somebody dropped the ball not asking to check his wraps after seeing that kind of physical damage. His ear was physical evidence that something was amuck Can’t say too much about the first Cintron fight other than Cintron was never hurt in his entire career prior to that if I recall correctly.
When you jump ahead to the Williams fight there is not anything that stands out really except that Margarito could have came out bare knuckle and that would have been a tough fight for him given Williams style and physical attributes. The second Cintron fight does not say much as it was a body shot.
Move ahead to Cotto and the first mistake was not having anyone from his corner watching Margarito’s wraps and let’s face it, outside a few strict State Commissions, the signing off on wraps is pretty lax on this side of the pond. Half these people that are certified to do so probably attended a few classes and watched a few power point presentations and got the certificate. They merely go through the motions when they are watching. In the end, Cotto looked like he had been beaten half to death with a meat tenderizer. You simply do not see that kind of physical damage to a face all that often.
With Shane good ole Richardson being at the right place at the right time as he was with Tito. In the end one is left with a question which has been alluded to in this very thread. Why would they attempt to cheat on a washed up Shane and not a prime Cotto?
Resto never fought again and spent three years in jail and Lewis a buck and a half in the joint and was banished from ever being in someone’s corner again. Margarito is making millions dollars after getting caught attempting to do the same thing Resto did.
Thanks for hearing me out.
IamInuit: great first post! welcome to the forums!
:army:Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuit