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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
stebs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
No Contest
Even if they released the video footage of the secret mission, there would still be people saying it was fake. Just like we have never landed on the moon, those same types of people.(Bilbo)
That dead body would be in America right now if I was the President and there would be no doubt, he was the most wanted man in America and you just dump him in the sea for the sake of Islam law. I say bullshit and if indeed they did get him I doubt very much he was dumped in the sea.
I don't trust our ( US ) government or media and could care less about Islams religious law and I'm sure many Americans feel the same.
Well said, it seems the American point of view isn't that far away from my own after all.
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
therealremi
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AdamGB
and to answer your somewhat redundant question... armed Americans were there because they found and wanted to kill the bastard responsible for 9/11.
Quite simple really. I doubt they were all that worried about asking for permission (assuming they didn't have it) offending the Pakistanis by killing OSAMA BIN FUCKING LADEN. :rolleyes:
it was a small strike team in a couple of helicopters, they probably just flew over the border from afganistan... it's not like it was an entire battalion
I wouldn't like to live in a country where a bunch of ignorant rednecks lead by some Captain America can just fly over and do some killing.
I wonder what would the coverage of that raid be if they mistakenly blew up some innocent civilians.
If I were Pakistani president and Americans did that without my permission (and I would never give them permission) I would get very angry.
Very well said.
A little bit naughty, but beyond the rough and tumble there is a message.
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
therealremi
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AdamGB
and to answer your somewhat redundant question... armed Americans were there because they found and wanted to kill the bastard responsible for 9/11.
Quite simple really. I doubt they were all that worried about asking for permission (assuming they didn't have it) offending the Pakistanis by killing OSAMA BIN FUCKING LADEN. :rolleyes:
it was a small strike team in a couple of helicopters, they probably just flew over the border from afganistan... it's not like it was an entire battalion
I wouldn't like to live in a country where a bunch of ignorant rednecks lead by some Captain America can just fly over and do some killing.
I wonder what would the coverage of that raid be if they mistakenly blew up some innocent civilians.
If I were Pakistani president and Americans did that without my permission (and I would never give them permission) I would get very angry.
Think what you want, but I wouldn't call the U.S. Navy Seals or the U.S. military, a bunch of "ignorant rednecks", my guess is you live in a country that owes part of it's freedom to these "ignorant rednecks".
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
therealremi
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AdamGB
and to answer your somewhat redundant question... armed Americans were there because they found and wanted to kill the bastard responsible for 9/11.
Quite simple really. I doubt they were all that worried about asking for permission (assuming they didn't have it) offending the Pakistanis by killing OSAMA BIN FUCKING LADEN. :rolleyes:
it was a small strike team in a couple of helicopters, they probably just flew over the border from afganistan... it's not like it was an entire battalion
I wouldn't like to live in a country where a bunch of ignorant rednecks lead by some Captain America can just fly over and do some killing.
I wonder what would the coverage of that raid be if they mistakenly blew up some innocent civilians.
If I were Pakistani president and Americans did that without my permission (and I would never give them permission) I would get very angry.
I, on the other hand, am EXTREMELY pleased the last thing bin Laden saw on this earth were American volunteers who had come in the night to exact some tiny amount of justice for their fellow citizens.
It's also nice to know you you are comfortable harboring mass murderers. Nice ethics.
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
therealremi
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AdamGB
and to answer your somewhat redundant question... armed Americans were there because they found and wanted to kill the bastard responsible for 9/11.
Quite simple really. I doubt they were all that worried about asking for permission (assuming they didn't have it) offending the Pakistanis by killing OSAMA BIN FUCKING LADEN. :rolleyes:
it was a small strike team in a couple of helicopters, they probably just flew over the border from afganistan... it's not like it was an entire battalion
I wouldn't like to live in a country where a bunch of ignorant rednecks lead by some Captain America can just fly over and do some killing.
I wonder what would the coverage of that raid be if they mistakenly blew up some innocent civilians.
If I were Pakistani president and Americans did that without my permission (and I would never give them permission) I would get very angry.
For a start they reportedly gave permision... but that is irelvant... you are still completely missing the point.
If America didn't have permision then Pakistan would still be in no position to be 'very angry'. OSAMA HAS BEEN LIVING IN PAKISTAN... they are in no position to be angry with anybody... they either harboured him or at worst failed to locate him literally right under their own noses. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
Also... what innocent civilians were blown up? Please tell me... what? none... if you keep adding any hypothetical situation you want to your arguments to give them weight then we are going to be here all week
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
I, on the other hand, am EXTREMELY pleased the last thing bin Laden saw on this earth were American volunteers who had come in the night to exact some tiny amount of justice for their fellow citizens.
It's also nice to know you you are comfortable harboring mass murderers. Nice ethics.
If you are American, don't take my criticism of that particular aspect of that operation personal.
As far as Osama is concerned, all I (and probably most of us) know about him comes from mainstream media, where he was pictured as the most evil archenemy of humanity. I tend to distrust media. I know politicians feed on such things, they can go on and on about defending the country and do some very stupid things in the name of it.
So I would rather see Osama extracted by the Pakistani, then extradited (after presenting formal evidence), and then having a trial in the US. Now, tell me, does US justice system state that you can kill a suspect on the spot (if you can take him alive), just because he is presumed to be very evil? Maybe you can legally torture him as well, cause he is so evil?
I said I wouldn't give any permission to Americans for that raid, cause why would I deprive myself of the glory of capturing the most wanted man? Same thing happens when FBI and local police compete to make an arrest. Only here it is much more serious. If Pakistani gov weren't asked for permission then they should be very much offended. It's like the US gov doesn't know where US border ends. This doesn't help the image of USA in Arab world and for that reason alone, the Pakistani should have made the arrest.
Finally, I remember a very good scene from the TV series Criminal Minds: a captured terrorist asked FBI agent: "who in your opinion is the biggest enemy of USA?". The FBI agent replied: "Ignorance".
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Think what you want, but I wouldn't call the U.S. Navy Seals or the U.S. military, a bunch of "ignorant rednecks",
I'm not calling that all of US military - it's enough if a small percent is this way, and whoever meets them on their bad day is in trouble. The Generation Kill series illustrates what I mean.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
my guess is you live in a country that owes part of it's freedom to these "ignorant rednecks".
As a national of a country that was sold by FDR to Stalin at Yalta, I very much doubt that.
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
therealremi
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
I, on the other hand, am EXTREMELY pleased the last thing bin Laden saw on this earth were American volunteers who had come in the night to exact some tiny amount of justice for their fellow citizens.
It's also nice to know you you are comfortable harboring mass murderers. Nice ethics.
If you are American, don't take my criticism of that particular aspect of that operation personal.
As far as Osama is concerned, all I (and probably most of us) know about him comes from mainstream media, where he was pictured as the most evil archenemy of humanity. I tend to distrust media. I know politicians feed on such things, they can go on and on about defending the country and do some very stupid things in the name of it.
So I would rather see Osama extracted by the Pakistani, then extradited (after presenting formal evidence), and then having a trial in the US. Now, tell me, does US justice system state that you can kill a suspect on the spot (if you can take him alive), just because he is presumed to be very evil? Maybe you can legally torture him as well, cause he is so evil?
I said I wouldn't give any permission to Americans for that raid, cause why would I deprive myself of the glory of capturing the most wanted man? Same thing happens when FBI and local police compete to make an arrest. Only here it is much more serious. If Pakistani gov weren't asked for permission then they should be very much offended. It's like the US gov doesn't know where US border ends. This doesn't help the image of USA in Arab world and for that reason alone, the Pakistani should have made the arrest.
Finally, I remember a very good scene from the TV series Criminal Minds: a captured terrorist asked FBI agent: "who in your opinion is the biggest enemy of USA?". The FBI agent replied: "Ignorance".
Not personal at all.
1. Distrust the media all you want. Don't distrust what the man himself said or wrote. Read the various letters/manifestos he distributed where he justifies targeting civilians (among other things)
2. The idea the Pakistanis didn't know EXACTLY where he was just isn't credible. He was within a mile of their equivalent of West Point for God's sake. They had YEARS to bring him in and didn't.
3. In the US one can ABSOLUTELY legally kill a suspect if they resist arrest or threaten a cop. And Yes, I'm fine with that.
4. First off the Pakistani's aren't Arabs and secondly this is WAR, not some police situation. Ignoring borders kind of comes with the territory wouldn't you say?
5. Forgive me if I find that in one post you claim to distrust the media and then find wisdom in a TV show more than a little ironic.
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
therealremi
If you are American, don't take my criticism of that particular aspect of that operation personal....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
therealremi
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Think what you want, but I wouldn't call the U.S. Navy Seals or the U.S. military, a bunch of "ignorant rednecks",
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
my guess is you live in a country that owes part of it's freedom to these "ignorant rednecks".
As a national of a country that was sold by FDR to Stalin at Yalta, I very much doubt that.
You ask that the discussion not be taken at a personal level, yet, where you are coming from is purely, and exclusively, only from the same that you ask not to be of. Is not hate personal?
It is!, even if yours originate from an echo, from the distant past, like 1945 Yalta. -Roosevelt, Churchill, and Stalin.... Poland!
Chill man... let Americans, and freedom loving people of this earth enjoy this moment of retribution and glory. Peace.
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
therealremi
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Think what you want, but I wouldn't call the U.S. Navy Seals or the U.S. military, a bunch of "ignorant rednecks",
I'm not calling that all of US military - it's enough if a small percent is this way, and whoever meets them on their bad day is in trouble. The Generation Kill series illustrates what I mean.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
my guess is you live in a country that owes part of it's freedom to these "ignorant rednecks".
As a national of a country that was sold by FDR to Stalin at Yalta, I very much doubt that.
Generation Kill, thats where you are forming your opinion of the military?...Give me a break. Thats like saying the military is a bunch of loners and dark individuals, just watch Rambo that illustrates what I mean.
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
All the news is what affect did water boarding have and what did Pakistan know.
Just my opinion but I won't go into the water boarding, I believe Pakistan knew he was their and I believe Pakistan knew about the raid and may have given info to us. I don't think they can let out that Pakistan knew anything because the Muslims over their might revolt against their government like the rest of the middle east is doing right now.
This was tweeted live and in close proximity of Pakistan military installations, how could we do this with nothing coming from their military at all. Their playing stupid for their own protection. Personally I don't care if they knew or not but I believe they knew about it and helped in some way.
Remember the intelligence said they had no physical proof at all that he was there as they never seen him in person after having 24 hour surveillance for how long.?
It's just an opinion or thoughts, but makes some sense for why Pakistan would do this.
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
stebs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
No Contest
Even if they released the video footage of the secret mission, there would still be people saying it was fake. Just like we have never landed on the moon, those same types of people.(Bilbo)
That dead body would be in America right now if I was the President and there would be no doubt, he was the most wanted man in America and you just dump him in the sea for the sake of Islam law. I say bullshit and if indeed they did get him I doubt very much he was dumped in the sea.
I don't trust our ( US ) government or media and could care less about Islams religious law and I'm sure many Americans feel the same.
The dead body might be in America indeed but if it had been dumped in the sea I think most Americans would have no problem with that. What purpose would it serve to let everyone know that the body is in the US?
I don't believe everything the US government says and they do keep secrets but with regards to claiming that they killed OBL, I believe them 100%. I think this may be the reason they took the body with them, to verify the identify. They would not risk lying about this just to have someone come forward with proof to discredit it.
If you don't trust the US media then who do you trust to get the information from?
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
therealremi
I wouldn't like to live in a country where a bunch of ignorant rednecks lead by some Captain America can just fly over and do some killing.
This is better than living in a country where another country can just fly over your territory and there is nothing that your country can do about it. Not that I am condoning countries from encroaching in other nation's territories but this OBL situation is different. I don't even think you are proud of your country because you don't show it.
And your comment about 'ignorant rednecks' had been addressed by Mars_ax.
Quote:
I wonder what would the coverage of that raid be if they mistakenly blew up some innocent civilians.
I believe that they are aware of that risk and took it because the goal outweighted the risk. The US had been critized in the past, even by me, for operations involving the death of innocent civilians. I may have even criticized them in this operation if that happened but it DIDN'T.
Quote:
If I were Pakistani president and Americans did that without my permission (and I would never give them permission) I would get very angry.
This had already been answered by AdamGB. They are in no position to be very angry.
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AdamGB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
therealremi
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AdamGB
and to answer your somewhat redundant question... armed Americans were there because they found and wanted to kill the bastard responsible for 9/11.
Quite simple really. I doubt they were all that worried about asking for permission (assuming they didn't have it) offending the Pakistanis by killing OSAMA BIN FUCKING LADEN. :rolleyes:
it was a small strike team in a couple of helicopters, they probably just flew over the border from afganistan... it's not like it was an entire battalion
I wouldn't like to live in a country where a bunch of ignorant rednecks lead by some Captain America can just fly over and do some killing.
I wonder what would the coverage of that raid be if they mistakenly blew up some innocent civilians.
If I were Pakistani president and Americans did that without my permission (and I would never give them permission) I would get very angry.
For a start they reportedly gave permision... but that is irelvant... you are still completely missing the point.
If America didn't have permision then Pakistan would still be in no position to be 'very angry'. OSAMA HAS BEEN LIVING IN PAKISTAN... they are in no position to be angry with anybody... they either harboured him or at worst failed to locate him literally right under their own noses. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
Also... what innocent civilians were blown up? Please tell me... what? none... if you keep adding any hypothetical situation you want to your arguments to give them weight then we are going to be here all week
Well said.
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InTheNeutralCorner
Quote:
Originally Posted by
stebs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
No Contest
Even if they released the video footage of the secret mission, there would still be people saying it was fake. Just like we have never landed on the moon, those same types of people.(Bilbo)
That dead body would be in America right now if I was the President and there would be no doubt, he was the most wanted man in America and you just dump him in the sea for the sake of Islam law. I say bullshit and if indeed they did get him I doubt very much he was dumped in the sea.
I don't trust our ( US ) government or media and could care less about Islams religious law and I'm sure many Americans feel the same.
The dead body might be in America indeed but if it had been dumped in the sea I think most Americans would have no problem with that. What purpose would it serve to let everyone know that the body is in the US?
I don't believe everything the US government says and they do keep secrets but with regards to claiming that they killed OBL, I believe them 100%. I think this may be the reason they took the body with them, to verify the identify. They would not risk lying about this just to have someone come forward with proof to discredit it.
If you don't trust the US media then who do you trust to get the information from?
The media is big business. if you watch the news shows and switch from one channel to the next you can see the bias in there reports. I feel you have to double and triple check several sources and even then you have to come to your own conclusion.
I don't know what part of the world your in, could be here in America and if it is you know the Americans want the photo's put out for proof. With that said millions of Americans do not trust the media or government. I believe they got him but I still want to see it.
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
therealremi
As far as Osama is concerned, all I (and probably most of us) know about him comes from mainstream media, where he was pictured as the most evil archenemy of humanity. I tend to distrust media. I know politicians feed on such things, they can go on and on about defending the country and do some very stupid things in the name of it.
Who do you trust then with regards to information about OBL?
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
stebs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InTheNeutralCorner
Quote:
Originally Posted by
stebs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
No Contest
Even if they released the video footage of the secret mission, there would still be people saying it was fake. Just like we have never landed on the moon, those same types of people.(Bilbo)
That dead body would be in America right now if I was the President and there would be no doubt, he was the most wanted man in America and you just dump him in the sea for the sake of Islam law. I say bullshit and if indeed they did get him I doubt very much he was dumped in the sea.
I don't trust our ( US ) government or media and could care less about Islams religious law and I'm sure many Americans feel the same.
The dead body might be in America indeed but if it had been dumped in the sea I think most Americans would have no problem with that. What purpose would it serve to let everyone know that the body is in the US?
I don't believe everything the US government says and they do keep secrets but with regards to claiming that they killed OBL, I believe them 100%. I think this may be the reason they took the body with them, to verify the identify. They would not risk lying about this just to have someone come forward with proof to discredit it.
If you don't trust the US media then who do you trust to get the information from?
The media is big business. if you watch the news shows and switch from one channel to the next you can see the bias in there reports. I feel you have to double and triple check several sources and even then you have to come to your own conclusion.
I don't know what part of the world your in, could be here in America and if it is you know the Americans want the photo's put out for proof. With that said millions of Americans do not trust the media or government. I believe they got him but I still want to see it.
If you believe they got him then why would you still want to see it? I don't have any doubt that they got him so I don't need any proof. And I know of quite a number of Americans who don't care about the proof. You can see from the flag next to my name as to where I am.
I am aware that not everything that comes out of the media are true. You have to be selective as to what to believe in. But by saying that you don't trust the media means that you are suspicious of everything they come up with. You don't trust the media in general or just the US media?
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
[QUOTE=InTheNeutralCorner;966411]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
stebs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InTheNeutralCorner
Quote:
Originally Posted by
stebs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
No Contest
Even if they released the video footage of the secret mission, there would still be people saying it was fake. Just like we have never landed on the moon, those same types of people.(Bilbo)
That dead body would be in America right now if I was the President and there would be no doubt, he was the most wanted man in America and you just dump him in the sea for the sake of Islam law. I say bullshit and if indeed they did get him I doubt very much he was dumped in the sea.
I don't trust our ( US ) government or media and could care less about Islams religious law and I'm sure many Americans feel the same.
The dead body might be in America indeed but if it had been dumped in the sea I think most Americans would have no problem with that. What purpose would it serve to let everyone know that the body is in the US?
I don't believe everything the US government says and they do keep secrets but with regards to claiming that they killed OBL, I believe them 100%. I think this may be the reason they took the body with them, to verify the identify. They would not risk lying about this just to have someone come forward with proof to discredit it.
If you don't trust the US media then who do you trust to get the information from?
The media is big business. if you watch the news shows and switch from one channel to the next you can see the bias in there reports. I feel you have to double and triple check several sources and even then you have to come to your own conclusion.
I don't know what part of the world your in, could be here in America and if it is you know the Americans want the photo's put out for proof. With that said millions of Americans do not trust the media or government. I believe they got him but I still want to see it.
If you believe they got him then why would you still want to see it? I don't have any doubt that they got him so I don't need any proof. And I know of quite a number of Americans who don't care about the proof. You can see from the flag next to my name as to where I am.
I am aware that not everything that comes out of the media are true. You have to be selective as to what to believe in. But by saying that you don't trust the media means that you are suspicious of everything they come up with. Who don't you trust, the media in general or just the US media?
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InTheNeutralCorner
Quote:
Originally Posted by
therealremi
I wouldn't like to live in a country where a bunch of ignorant rednecks lead by some Captain America can just fly over and do some killing.
This is better than living in a country where another country can just fly over your territory and there is nothing that your country can do about it. Not that I am condoning countries from encroaching in other nation's territories but this OBL situation is different. I don't even think you are proud of your country because you don't show it.
And your comment about 'ignorant rednecks' had been addressed by Mars_ax.
Quote:
I wonder what would the coverage of that raid be if they mistakenly blew up some innocent civilians.
I believe that they are aware of that risk and took it because the goal outweighted the risk. The US had been critized in the past, even by me, for operations involving the death of innocent civilians. I may have even criticized them in this operation if that happened but it DIDN'T.
Quote:
If I were Pakistani president and Americans did that without my permission (and I would never give them permission) I would get very angry.
This had already been answered by AdamGB. They are in no position to be very angry.
Why is Osama Bin Laden different? Do you have specific evidence that he caused 9-11?
The man could have been captured and brought to trial and yet a bullet was put in his brain. Why should anyone be proud of being from such a trigger happy country with a gun in every home and seemingly in every country at the wink of a President? Who is next....Julian Assange? Am I number 20921 on the list? Where do you draw the line?
America had the opportunity to bring a wanted man to justice. They could have detained him and provided the evidence that he was the mastermind of all these terrorist acts, but instead they defaulted with the good old fashioned bullet to the head. It leaves more questions unanswered than ever. They might as well have let him live in peace where he was.
All this has done is make America look more morally devoid and the Muslim world more angry. It has been another bullet to the head of America if anything. Once again Bin Laden makes a mockery of America and their so called morality and justice.
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Not to damage any egos here Miles... but I wouldn't flatter yourself to think that you are on any list at all.
Billions of people on the planet and you're a teacher who makes some pretty generic points about the man... not 'Miles X'... :p
If there is a list, it's reserved for the big boys... of which you and I aren't.
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AdamGB
Not to damage any egos here Miles... but I wouldn't flatter yourself to think that you are on any list at all.
Billions of people on the planet and you're a teacher who makes some pretty generic points about the man... not 'Miles X'... :p
If there is a list, it's reserved for the big boys... of which you and I aren't.
Damn shame that, I was hoping I was at least in the top 100,000. It seems posts attacking America get you nowhere here. I need to find a new promoter.
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Why is Osama Bin Laden different? Do you have specific evidence that he caused 9-11?
Haven't you seen the videotape of OBL admitting to ordering what happened on 9-11? I am afraid that if you see that tape you might even question its authenticity.
Quote:
The man could have been captured and brought to trial and yet a bullet was put in his brain.
You are talking about an ideal society which is different from the real world. There has been no doubt that OBL is the mastermind behind the tragedy so the notion of innocent until proven guilty goes out the window. Whatever he did deserves the death penalty. Ideally, he should have been brought to trial (if he didn't resist) but I, like most of the Americans, has no complain about the outcome of the raid.
Quote:
Why should anyone be proud of being from such a trigger happy country with a gun in every home and seemingly in every country at the wink of a President? Who is next....Julian Assange? Am I number 20921 on the list? Where do you draw the line?
Every country has their flaws and misgivings. Not a lot of home here has a gun but every legal and responsible individuals has the freedom to own one. The President is not almighty, he can be impeached or voted out of office. And it's this country that has sacrificed a lot of it's citizen so that several countries remain free.
Quote:
America had the opportunity to bring a wanted man to justice. They could have detained him and provided the evidence that he was the mastermind of all these terrorist acts, but instead they defaulted with the good old fashioned bullet to the head. It leaves more questions unanswered than ever.
Like what questions?
Quote:
They might as well have let him live in peace where he was.
It's easy for you to say since it's not your country that lost thousands of lives. And he always remains a threat while alive. Did you think he will just fade in the sunset happy with what he did?
Quote:
All this has done is make America look more morally devoid and the Muslim world more angry. It has been another bullet to the head of America if anything. Once again Bin Laden makes a mockery of America and their so called morality and justice.
America already looked morally devoid and most of the Muslim world are already angry at this country no matter what it does. It had been a mockery even from its citizens that this country can not even locate Osama. This sends a message to the terrorist that they can run but they can not hide.
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InTheNeutralCorner
Quote:
Originally Posted by
therealremi
I wouldn't like to live in a country where a bunch of ignorant rednecks lead by some Captain America can just fly over and do some killing.
This is better than living in a country where another country can just fly over your territory and there is nothing that your country can do about it. Not that I am condoning countries from encroaching in other nation's territories but this OBL situation is different. I don't even think you are proud of your country because you don't show it.
And your comment about 'ignorant rednecks' had been addressed by Mars_ax.
Quote:
I wonder what would the coverage of that raid be if they mistakenly blew up some innocent civilians.
I believe that they are aware of that risk and took it because the goal outweighted the risk. The US had been critized in the past, even by me, for operations involving the death of innocent civilians. I may have even criticized them in this operation if that happened but it DIDN'T.
Quote:
If I were Pakistani president and Americans did that without my permission (and I would never give them permission) I would get very angry.
This had already been answered by AdamGB. They are in no position to be very angry.
Why is Osama Bin Laden different? Do you have specific evidence that he caused 9-11?
The man could have been captured and brought to trial and yet a bullet was put in his brain. Why should anyone be proud of being from such a trigger happy country with a gun in every home and seemingly in every country at the wink of a President? Who is next....Julian Assange? Am I number 20921 on the list? Where do you draw the line?
America had the opportunity to bring a wanted man to justice. They could have detained him and provided the evidence that he was the mastermind of all these terrorist acts, but instead they defaulted with the good old fashioned bullet to the head. It leaves more questions unanswered than ever. They might as well have let him live in peace where he was.
All this has done is make America look more morally devoid and the Muslim world more angry. It has been another bullet to the head of America if anything. Once again Bin Laden makes a mockery of America and their so called morality and justice.
1. Osama ADMITTED to ordering 9/11.
2. Guns are just a tool. In the US's case a tool that prevents us from being at the arbitrary whim of gov't. Fearing guns is silly. Who is next? Ayman Al-Zarwahiri for starters!
3.We DID bring him to justice. (I really hope we have him alive and are interrogating the shit out of him and his "death" is just a ploy).
4. Morally devoid????????? Really? For executing an admitted mass killer?
5. Screw the Muslim world and their anger. As near as I can figure there are two sorts of Muslims in the world at the moment. Those who are terrorists (or support them through money, intel etc) and those too cowed to do anything about it. When the Muslim world treats its terrorists the way the US treated Tim McVeigh (rather than naming their kids after them) I'll care about Muslim anger.
6. Anyone who doesn't think the execution of an admitted mass murderer isn't moral or just has a significant ethical problem.
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InTheNeutralCorner
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Why is Osama Bin Laden different? Do you have specific evidence that he caused 9-11?
Haven't you seen the videotape of OBL admitting to ordering what happened on 9-11? I am afraid that if you see that tape you might even question its authenticity.
Quote:
The man could have been captured and brought to trial and yet a bullet was put in his brain.
You are talking about an ideal society which is different from the real world. There has been no doubt that OBL is the mastermind behind the tragedy so the notion of innocent until proven guilty goes out the window. Whatever he did deserves the death penalty. Ideally, he should have been brought to trial (if he didn't resist) but I, like most of the Americans, has no complain about the outcome of the raid.
Quote:
Why should anyone be proud of being from such a trigger happy country with a gun in every home and seemingly in every country at the wink of a President? Who is next....Julian Assange? Am I number 20921 on the list? Where do you draw the line?
Every country has their flaws and misgivings. Not a lot of home here has a gun but every legal and responsible individuals has the freedom to own one. The President is not almighty, he can be impeached or voted out of office. And it's this country that has sacrificed a lot of it's citizen so that several countries remain free.
Quote:
America had the opportunity to bring a wanted man to justice. They could have detained him and provided the evidence that he was the mastermind of all these terrorist acts, but instead they defaulted with the good old fashioned bullet to the head. It leaves more questions unanswered than ever.
Like what questions?
Quote:
They might as well have let him live in peace where he was.
It's easy for you to say since it's not your country that lost thousands of lives. And he always remains a threat while alive. Did you think he will just fade in the sunset happy with what he did?
Quote:
All this has done is make America look more morally devoid and the Muslim world more angry. It has been another bullet to the head of America if anything. Once again Bin Laden makes a mockery of America and their so called morality and justice.
America already looked morally devoid and most of the Muslim world are already angry at this country no matter what it does. It had been a mockery even from its citizens that this country can not even locate Osama. This sends a message to the terrorist that they can run but they can not hide.
I will just respond to your points with numbers because I don't do multiple quotes.
1) I could tell you that I am Superman, you need more than that to go on in a court of law.
2) So, where is the hard evidence that you speak of? Going on your logic a lot of people need the death penalty including your own presidents. Bush is responsible for a lot more tragedy, no?
3) So Iraq was invaded with good justification because of it's obvious ties with Al Qaeda?
4) Such as the direct evidence linking him to 9-11?
5) Most countries have experienced terrorism in some some or other. The UK had its own experience with terrorism. It doesn't mean you shoot unarmed people in the head for justice.
6) Oh, the terrorists cannot hide? Get real, America has done nothing but expand it's invitation for hatred with the two wars. There is also Guantanamo bay, the torture, rendition etc. America has simply made itself even more maligned.
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
I will just respond to your points with numbers because I don't do multiple quotes.
1) I could tell you that I am Superman, you need more than that to go on in a court of law.
This is War, not some case of armed robbery. Local courts play no role, nor should they. The US, and indeed much of the world, recognized the legal distinction eons ago. I suppose you have a problem with the shooting down of Yamamoto's plane in 1943 too? Or the Brits own "shoot to kill" policy of the 1970's and 1980's with regard to the IRA?
2) So, where is the hard evidence that you speak of? Going on your logic a lot of people need the death penalty including your own presidents. Bush is responsible for a lot more tragedy, no?
Hard evidence? I went to over 30 funerals after 9/11, there was a giganctic hole put in the USS Cole etc. Bin Laden took credit for all of it. In time of war? That is MORE than enough. If you can't figuire out the moral difference between TARGETING civilians and unfortunate collateral damage? You have a significant ethical gap. it is like equating a guy who shoots up a schoolyard with a guy who runs over a child who chases a ball into the street while rushing his wife to the hospital because she's giving birth.
3) So Iraq was invaded with good justification because of it's obvious ties with Al Qaeda?
No Iraq was invaded because we had been at war with them for over a decade, Hussein continued to act aggressively, because the UN sanctions were a joke he was circumventing with enormous bribes and because our choice had basically come down to leaving him in power or taking him out. Did we (and everyone else BTW) think he had WMD's? Yup. But in reality that wasn't the core issue. Saddam was. I mean Brits have WMD's and I don't care. And yes Hussein had permitted multiple terrorists to use Iraq as a haven (look up Abu Nidal, Abu Abbas, Abdul Rahman Yassin and Ansar al-Islam for starters). For additional giggle points? Guess in which nation the courier who finally led us to bin Laden was first found and begun to be trailed?
4) Such as the direct evidence linking him to 9-11?
Like I said, this is War, not some episode of Law and Order.
5) Most countries have experienced terrorism in some some or other. The UK had its own experience with terrorism. It doesn't mean you shoot unarmed people in the head for justice.
Like hell it doesn't! You think the Brits have acted any differently? Look up Mairead Farrle, Sean Savage and Daniel McCann sometime and more generally the Brits "Shoot to kill" policy against the IRA.
6) Oh, the terrorists cannot hide? Get real, America has done nothing but expand it's invitation for hatred with the two wars. There is also Guantanamo bay, the torture, rendition etc. America has simply made itself even more maligned.
Yaaaaaaawn. Maligned by whom? Societies so savage they permit honor killings? Good! Societies so backwards they don't permit their women educations or to drive? Good! By people who have the ethical standards of a six year old who can't distinguish between crime and war nor between murder and collateral damage? Doesn't bother me in the least.
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
I will just respond to your points with numbers because I don't do multiple quotes.
1) I could tell you that I am Superman, you need more than that to go on in a court of law.
This is War, not some case of armed robbery. Local courts play no role, nor should they. The US, and indeed much of the world, recognized the legal distinction eons ago. I suppose you have a problem with the shooting down of Yamamoto's plane in 1943 too? Or the Brits own "shoot to kill" policy of the 1970's and 1980's with regard to the IRA?
2) So, where is the hard evidence that you speak of? Going on your logic a lot of people need the death penalty including your own presidents. Bush is responsible for a lot more tragedy, no?
Hard evidence? I went to over 30 funerals after 9/11, there was a giganctic hole put in the USS Cole etc. Bin Laden took credit for all of it. In time of war? That is MORE than enough. If you can't figuire out the moral difference between TARGETING civilians and unfortunate collateral damage? You have a significant ethical gap. it is like equating a guy who shoots up a schoolyard with a guy who runs over a child who chases a ball into the street while rushing his wife to the hospital because she's giving birth.
3) So Iraq was invaded with good justification because of it's obvious ties with Al Qaeda?
No Iraq was invaded because we had been at war with them for over a decade, Hussein continued to act aggressively, because the UN sanctions were a joke he was circumventing with enormous bribes and because our choice had basically come down to leaving him in power or taking him out. Did we (and everyone else BTW) think he had WMD's? Yup. But in reality that wasn't the core issue. Saddam was. I mean Brits have WMD's and I don't care. And yes Hussein had permitted multiple terrorists to use Iraq as a haven (look up Abu Nidal, Abu Abbas, Abdul Rahman Yassin and Ansar al-Islam for starters).
4) Such as the direct evidence linking him to 9-11?
Like I said, this is War, not some episode of Law and Order.
5) Most countries have experienced terrorism in some some or other. The UK had its own experience with terrorism. It doesn't mean you shoot unarmed people in the head for justice.
Like hell it doesn't! You think the Brits have acted any differently? Look up Mairead Farrle, Sean Savage and Daniel McCann sometime and more generally the Brits "Shoot to kill" policy against the IRA.
6) Oh, the terrorists cannot hide? Get real, America has done nothing but expand it's invitation for hatred with the two wars. There is also Guantanamo bay, the torture, rendition etc. America has simply made itself even more maligned.
Yaaaaaaawn. Maligned by whom? Societies so savage they permit honor killings? Good! Societies so backwards they don't permit their women educations or to drive? Good! By people who have the ethical standards of a six year old who can't distinguish between crime and war nor between murder and collateral damage? Doesn't bother me in the least.
I am about to respond but you beat me to it. Good points.
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InTheNeutralCorner
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
I will just respond to your points with numbers because I don't do multiple quotes.
1) I could tell you that I am Superman, you need more than that to go on in a court of law.
This is War, not some case of armed robbery. Local courts play no role, nor should they. The US, and indeed much of the world, recognized the legal distinction eons ago. I suppose you have a problem with the shooting down of Yamamoto's plane in 1943 too? Or the Brits own "shoot to kill" policy of the 1970's and 1980's with regard to the IRA?
2) So, where is the hard evidence that you speak of? Going on your logic a lot of people need the death penalty including your own presidents. Bush is responsible for a lot more tragedy, no?
Hard evidence? I went to over 30 funerals after 9/11, there was a giganctic hole put in the USS Cole etc. Bin Laden took credit for all of it. In time of war? That is MORE than enough. If you can't figuire out the moral difference between TARGETING civilians and unfortunate collateral damage? You have a significant ethical gap. it is like equating a guy who shoots up a schoolyard with a guy who runs over a child who chases a ball into the street while rushing his wife to the hospital because she's giving birth.
3) So Iraq was invaded with good justification because of it's obvious ties with Al Qaeda?
No Iraq was invaded because we had been at war with them for over a decade, Hussein continued to act aggressively, because the UN sanctions were a joke he was circumventing with enormous bribes and because our choice had basically come down to leaving him in power or taking him out. Did we (and everyone else BTW) think he had WMD's? Yup. But in reality that wasn't the core issue. Saddam was. I mean Brits have WMD's and I don't care. And yes Hussein had permitted multiple terrorists to use Iraq as a haven (look up Abu Nidal, Abu Abbas, Abdul Rahman Yassin and Ansar al-Islam for starters).
4) Such as the direct evidence linking him to 9-11?
Like I said, this is War, not some episode of Law and Order.
5) Most countries have experienced terrorism in some some or other. The UK had its own experience with terrorism. It doesn't mean you shoot unarmed people in the head for justice.
Like hell it doesn't! You think the Brits have acted any differently? Look up Mairead Farrle, Sean Savage and Daniel McCann sometime and more generally the Brits "Shoot to kill" policy against the IRA.
6) Oh, the terrorists cannot hide? Get real, America has done nothing but expand it's invitation for hatred with the two wars. There is also Guantanamo bay, the torture, rendition etc. America has simply made itself even more maligned.
Yaaaaaaawn. Maligned by whom? Societies so savage they permit honor killings? Good! Societies so backwards they don't permit their women educations or to drive? Good! By people who have the ethical standards of a six year old who can't distinguish between crime and war nor between murder and collateral damage? Doesn't bother me in the least.
I am about to respond but you beat me to it. Good points.
Don't let that stop you from jumping in! :)
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InTheNeutralCorner
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
I will just respond to your points with numbers because I don't do multiple quotes.
1) I could tell you that I am Superman, you need more than that to go on in a court of law.
This is War, not some case of armed robbery. Local courts play no role, nor should they. The US, and indeed much of the world, recognized the legal distinction eons ago. I suppose you have a problem with the shooting down of Yamamoto's plane in 1943 too? Or the Brits own "shoot to kill" policy of the 1970's and 1980's with regard to the IRA?
2) So, where is the hard evidence that you speak of? Going on your logic a lot of people need the death penalty including your own presidents. Bush is responsible for a lot more tragedy, no?
Hard evidence? I went to over 30 funerals after 9/11, there was a giganctic hole put in the USS Cole etc. Bin Laden took credit for all of it. In time of war? That is MORE than enough. If you can't figuire out the moral difference between TARGETING civilians and unfortunate collateral damage? You have a significant ethical gap. it is like equating a guy who shoots up a schoolyard with a guy who runs over a child who chases a ball into the street while rushing his wife to the hospital because she's giving birth.
3) So Iraq was invaded with good justification because of it's obvious ties with Al Qaeda?
No Iraq was invaded because we had been at war with them for over a decade, Hussein continued to act aggressively, because the UN sanctions were a joke he was circumventing with enormous bribes and because our choice had basically come down to leaving him in power or taking him out. Did we (and everyone else BTW) think he had WMD's? Yup. But in reality that wasn't the core issue. Saddam was. I mean Brits have WMD's and I don't care. And yes Hussein had permitted multiple terrorists to use Iraq as a haven (look up Abu Nidal, Abu Abbas, Abdul Rahman Yassin and Ansar al-Islam for starters).
4) Such as the direct evidence linking him to 9-11?
Like I said, this is War, not some episode of Law and Order.
5) Most countries have experienced terrorism in some some or other. The UK had its own experience with terrorism. It doesn't mean you shoot unarmed people in the head for justice.
Like hell it doesn't! You think the Brits have acted any differently? Look up Mairead Farrle, Sean Savage and Daniel McCann sometime and more generally the Brits "Shoot to kill" policy against the IRA.
6) Oh, the terrorists cannot hide? Get real, America has done nothing but expand it's invitation for hatred with the two wars. There is also Guantanamo bay, the torture, rendition etc. America has simply made itself even more maligned.
Yaaaaaaawn. Maligned by whom? Societies so savage they permit honor killings? Good! Societies so backwards they don't permit their women educations or to drive? Good! By people who have the ethical standards of a six year old who can't distinguish between crime and war nor between murder and collateral damage? Doesn't bother me in the least.
I am about to respond but you beat me to it. Good points.
Don't let that stop you from jumping in! :)
Nah, I don't want miles to think that we ganged up on him, that we're "expanding the invitation for hatred".
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InTheNeutralCorner
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InTheNeutralCorner
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
I will just respond to your points with numbers because I don't do multiple quotes.
1) I could tell you that I am Superman, you need more than that to go on in a court of law.
This is War, not some case of armed robbery. Local courts play no role, nor should they. The US, and indeed much of the world, recognized the legal distinction eons ago. I suppose you have a problem with the shooting down of Yamamoto's plane in 1943 too? Or the Brits own "shoot to kill" policy of the 1970's and 1980's with regard to the IRA?
2) So, where is the hard evidence that you speak of? Going on your logic a lot of people need the death penalty including your own presidents. Bush is responsible for a lot more tragedy, no?
Hard evidence? I went to over 30 funerals after 9/11, there was a giganctic hole put in the USS Cole etc. Bin Laden took credit for all of it. In time of war? That is MORE than enough. If you can't figuire out the moral difference between TARGETING civilians and unfortunate collateral damage? You have a significant ethical gap. it is like equating a guy who shoots up a schoolyard with a guy who runs over a child who chases a ball into the street while rushing his wife to the hospital because she's giving birth.
3) So Iraq was invaded with good justification because of it's obvious ties with Al Qaeda?
No Iraq was invaded because we had been at war with them for over a decade, Hussein continued to act aggressively, because the UN sanctions were a joke he was circumventing with enormous bribes and because our choice had basically come down to leaving him in power or taking him out. Did we (and everyone else BTW) think he had WMD's? Yup. But in reality that wasn't the core issue. Saddam was. I mean Brits have WMD's and I don't care. And yes Hussein had permitted multiple terrorists to use Iraq as a haven (look up Abu Nidal, Abu Abbas, Abdul Rahman Yassin and Ansar al-Islam for starters).
4) Such as the direct evidence linking him to 9-11?
Like I said, this is War, not some episode of Law and Order.
5) Most countries have experienced terrorism in some some or other. The UK had its own experience with terrorism. It doesn't mean you shoot unarmed people in the head for justice.
Like hell it doesn't! You think the Brits have acted any differently? Look up Mairead Farrle, Sean Savage and Daniel McCann sometime and more generally the Brits "Shoot to kill" policy against the IRA.
6) Oh, the terrorists cannot hide? Get real, America has done nothing but expand it's invitation for hatred with the two wars. There is also Guantanamo bay, the torture, rendition etc. America has simply made itself even more maligned.
Yaaaaaaawn. Maligned by whom? Societies so savage they permit honor killings? Good! Societies so backwards they don't permit their women educations or to drive? Good! By people who have the ethical standards of a six year old who can't distinguish between crime and war nor between murder and collateral damage? Doesn't bother me in the least.
I am about to respond but you beat me to it. Good points.
Don't let that stop you from jumping in! :)
Nah, I don't want miles to think that we ganged up on him, that we're "expanding the invitation for hatred".
LOL, fair enough. Among the many things in this world that baffle me is the notion that a nation should have a goal "to be liked." Like International Relations are some sort of popularity contest among High School cliques. Nations don't have long term friends, they have long term interests. The other is that it is somehow desireable to be approved of by thugs, dictators, tyrants, societies with stone-aged values or the faculty of Swarthmore College (known as "The Kremlin on the Krumm"). Here's one more. That people approve of the UN, an institution in whose General Assembly, the vote of a liberal democracy carries precisely the same weight as the vote of a murderous thug who arbitrarily kills and imprisons his own people. Like those two are morally equivalent and that equality represents some sort of admirable moral structure. Baffling.
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
I will just respond to your points with numbers because I don't do multiple quotes.
1) I could tell you that I am Superman, you need more than that to go on in a court of law.
This is War, not some case of armed robbery. Local courts play no role, nor should they. The US, and indeed much of the world, recognized the legal distinction eons ago. I suppose you have a problem with the shooting down of Yamamoto's plane in 1943 too? Or the Brits own "shoot to kill" policy of the 1970's and 1980's with regard to the IRA?
2) So, where is the hard evidence that you speak of? Going on your logic a lot of people need the death penalty including your own presidents. Bush is responsible for a lot more tragedy, no?
Hard evidence? I went to over 30 funerals after 9/11, there was a giganctic hole put in the USS Cole etc. Bin Laden took credit for all of it. In time of war? That is MORE than enough. If you can't figuire out the moral difference between TARGETING civilians and unfortunate collateral damage? You have a significant ethical gap. it is like equating a guy who shoots up a schoolyard with a guy who runs over a child who chases a ball into the street while rushing his wife to the hospital because she's giving birth.
3) So Iraq was invaded with good justification because of it's obvious ties with Al Qaeda?
No Iraq was invaded because we had been at war with them for over a decade, Hussein continued to act aggressively, because the UN sanctions were a joke he was circumventing with enormous bribes and because our choice had basically come down to leaving him in power or taking him out. Did we (and everyone else BTW) think he had WMD's? Yup. But in reality that wasn't the core issue. Saddam was. I mean Brits have WMD's and I don't care. And yes Hussein had permitted multiple terrorists to use Iraq as a haven (look up Abu Nidal, Abu Abbas, Abdul Rahman Yassin and Ansar al-Islam for starters). For additional giggle points? Guess in which nation the courier who finally led us to bin Laden was first found and begun to be trailed?
4) Such as the direct evidence linking him to 9-11?
Like I said, this is War, not some episode of Law and Order.
5) Most countries have experienced terrorism in some some or other. The UK had its own experience with terrorism. It doesn't mean you shoot unarmed people in the head for justice.
Like hell it doesn't! You think the Brits have acted any differently? Look up Mairead Farrle, Sean Savage and Daniel McCann sometime and more generally the Brits "Shoot to kill" policy against the IRA.
6) Oh, the terrorists cannot hide? Get real, America has done nothing but expand it's invitation for hatred with the two wars. There is also Guantanamo bay, the torture, rendition etc. America has simply made itself even more maligned.
Yaaaaaaawn. Maligned by whom? Societies so savage they permit honor killings? Good! Societies so backwards they don't permit their women educations or to drive? Good! By people who have the ethical standards of a six year old who can't distinguish between crime and war nor between murder and collateral damage? Doesn't bother me in the least.
But that was not the reason why we went to Afghanistan. Stop changing the goalposts. We went there to capture terrorists that we thought were being harboured in Afghanistan. If the pretext was to change Afghanistan politically then there should have been an open discussion and a case built up. As things stand we were trigger happy and invaded within weeks of 9-11. It was a mess and we were wrong.
You have to respect international law or else you just become a terrorist state yourself. America is a terrorist state.
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Miles I dare you to go to that bar with the Marines and start talking politics like you do on here. Triple dog dare you. If you dont have the balls to say the stuff your saying here in public, is anyone really supposed to take you serious? Actually I think your just trolling, you and Bilbo are troll kings. I would be certain of it but you guys post like paragraphs upon paragraphs of demented rambling. :bashtroll4cx4:
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
No Contest
Miles I dare you to go to that bar with the Marines and start talking politics like you do on here. Triple dog dare you. If you dont have the balls to say the stuff your saying here in public, is anyone really supposed to take you serious? Actually I think your just trolling, you and Bilbo are troll kings. I would be certain of it but you guys post like paragraphs upon paragraphs of demented rambling. :bashtroll4cx4:
I wouldn't talk politics with drunken people who earn their money from the military industrial complex. Their world view is bound to be quite different from my own. Of course they are going to think it right to assasinate people. Of course they are going to think it acceptable to invade countries illegally. You don't question, you just do, you are getting paid to follow orders. On the whole you are not dealing with intellectuals, you are dealing with relatively uneducated people who are being asked to carry out tasks come what may. That is a generalisation, there are exceptions, but is pretty much the norm.
There may be decent people, but it wouldn't be wise to denounce your government and society. You would likely be weeded out. Bradley Manning has been weeded out and is dealing with the consequences. It doesn't pay to be in the military and have an overriding sense of morality. You want to get paid, you just do your work.
I believe everything that I am saying on here. If there is a hole in any of my arguments then feel free to point them out to me. I don't say these things to be provocative, I say them because I look at the evidence and respond accordingly. I am not a troll, but do feel free to argue as I see fit. There are no restrictions and so I type at will. I'm just enjoying myself.
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Ok, fine but if you dont stand up for what you believe in even in the face of an ass kicking then you must not be that committed to your cause is what I'm saying. Shit you must be able to convince them with your dazzling intellect right, rationalize the shit out of them, even if yours is only a moral victory?
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
But that was not the reason why we went to Afghanistan. Stop changing the goalposts. We went there to capture terrorists that we thought were being harboured in Afghanistan. If the pretext was to change Afghanistan politically then there should have been an open discussion and a case built up. As things stand we were trigger happy and invaded within weeks of 9-11. It was a mess and we were wrong.
You have to respect international law or else you just become a terrorist state yourself. America is a terrorist state.
LOL, who is changing goalposts? The lack of clarity in your thinking is pretty funny. We ABSOLUTELY went to Afghanistan to change it politically. Here is the clincher statement by President Bush before Congress.
And tonight, the United States of America makes the following demands on the Taliban: Deliver to United States authorities all the leaders of al Qaeda who hide in your land. Release all foreign nationals, including American citizens, you have unjustly imprisoned. Protect foreign journalists, diplomats, and aid workers in your country. Close immediately and permanently every terrorist training camp in Afghanistan, and hand over every terrorist, and every person in their support structure, to appropriate authorities. Give the United States full access to terrorist training camps, so we can make sure they are no longer operating. These demands are not open to negotiation or discussion. The Taliban must act, and act immediately. They will hand over the terrorists, or they will share in their fate.
Pretty clear that the Taliban either acts or is stripped of power aka changing Afghanistan politically.
LOL at "Respect International Law or you are a terrorist state." Fishing inside a twelve mile limit doesn't make one a terrorist. Terrorism can be defined in a pretty straightforward manner. Intentionally targeting non-combatants with violence in forwarding a political goal.
Osama was a combatant, we sent in troops instead of simply bombing the place (clearly safer towards non-combatants). So it fails to meet a reasonable definition.
I assume you're a Brit. If you are, it is ESPECIALLY funny judgemental stuff coming from a citizen of a nation responsible for the Amritsar Massacre, The Loughall Ambush, the "shoot to kill" policy towards the IRA, the Bombing of Dresden and on and on and on.
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
No Contest
Ok, fine but if you dont stand up for what you believe in even in the face of an ass kicking then you must not be that committed to your cause is what I'm saying. Shit you must be able to convince them with your dazzling intellect right, rationalize the shit out of them, even if yours is only a moral victory?
Kind of true, but I only went out one night. It would be a bit weird to go out there and just talk hardcore politics to relative strangers. Usually it's just playing some pool and small talk. I keep the more serious stuff for people who I am closer to and have warmed to. I view the hidden board here as my living room. Anyone is free to serve themselves a drink and anything goes.
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
No Contest
Miles I dare you to go to that bar with the Marines and start talking politics like you do on here. Triple dog dare you. If you dont have the balls to say the stuff your saying here in public, is anyone really supposed to take you serious? Actually I think your just trolling, you and Bilbo are troll kings. I would be certain of it but you guys post like paragraphs upon paragraphs of demented rambling. :bashtroll4cx4:
I wouldn't talk politics with drunken people who earn their money from the military industrial complex. Their world view is bound to be quite different from my own. Of course they are going to think it right to assasinate people. Of course they are going to think it acceptable to invade countries illegally. You don't question, you just do, you are getting paid to follow orders. On the whole you are not dealing with intellectuals, you are dealing with relatively uneducated people who are being asked to carry out tasks come what may. That is a generalisation, there are exceptions, but is pretty much the norm.
There may be decent people, but it wouldn't be wise to denounce your government and society. You would likely be weeded out. Bradley Manning has been weeded out and is dealing with the consequences. It doesn't pay to be in the military and have an overriding sense of morality. You want to get paid, you just do your work.
I believe everything that I am saying on here. If there is a hole in any of my arguments then feel free to point them out to me. I don't say these things to be provocative, I say them because I look at the evidence and respond accordingly. I am not a troll, but do feel free to argue as I see fit. There are no restrictions and so I type at will. I'm just enjoying myself.
You SERIOUSLY don't have a clue about the norm in today's US military and you ESPECIALLY don't have a clue just how gifted the elite Special Forces Groups are. They are the most technically proficient, have displayed the best judgement and their inventiveness (problem solving ability) is a key trait. He also must be able to teach his skills to others. Specifically the upper end of the Special Forces are usually in their 30's and 40's. Theya re enormously experienced. Talk to members of the US military in those branches or at least do some reading before you say such indefensible things.
Brad Manning committed treason. He may have done so as a matter of conscience, but it is undeniably Treason by the Constitutional definition.
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
But that was not the reason why we went to Afghanistan. Stop changing the goalposts. We went there to capture terrorists that we thought were being harboured in Afghanistan. If the pretext was to change Afghanistan politically then there should have been an open discussion and a case built up. As things stand we were trigger happy and invaded within weeks of 9-11. It was a mess and we were wrong.
You have to respect international law or else you just become a terrorist state yourself. America is a terrorist state.
LOL, who is changing goalposts? The lack of clarity in your thinking is pretty funny. We ABSOLUTELY went to Afghanistan to change it politically. Here is the clincher statement by President Bush before Congress.
And tonight, the United States of America makes the following demands on the Taliban: Deliver to United States authorities all the leaders of al Qaeda who hide in your land. Release all foreign nationals, including American citizens, you have unjustly imprisoned. Protect foreign journalists, diplomats, and aid workers in your country. Close immediately and permanently every terrorist training camp in Afghanistan, and hand over every terrorist, and every person in their support structure, to appropriate authorities. Give the United States full access to terrorist training camps, so we can make sure they are no longer operating. These demands are not open to negotiation or discussion. The Taliban must act, and act immediately. They will hand over the terrorists, or they will share in their fate.
Pretty clear that the Taliban either acts or is stripped of power aka changing Afghanistan politically.
LOL at "Respect International Law or you are a terrorist state." Fishing inside a twelve mile limit doesn't make one a terrorist. Terrorism can be defined in a pretty straightforward manner. Intentionally targeting non-combatants with violence in forwarding a political goal.
Osama was a combatant, we sent in troops instead of simply bombing the place (clearly safer towards non-combatants). So it fails to meet a reasonable definition.
I assume you're a Brit. If you are, it is ESPECIALLY funny judgemental stuff coming from a citizen of a nation responsible for the Amritsar Massacre, The Loughall Ambush, the "shoot to kill" policy towards the IRA, the Bombing of Dresden and on and on and on.
So when the Taliban asked for evidence proving that Bin Laden was behind the 9-11 attack what was the US response? You decided to go after a collective group of terrorists by invading a sovereign country with little planning and no real anticipation of the consequences. This is why the Afghanistan conquest has gone on far longer than WW2. It was a mess. There was no case made against the Taliban, they did not cause 9-11. Afghanistan was invaded within days of 9-11. Just as Obama is a terrorist, Bush and Blair are war criminals. All of them are monsters. It's just that two of them are viewed as legit and immune and the other is/was an outcast.
You are trying to twist the argument in anticipation of me somehow becoming patriotic about acts of terrorism commited by my own country. It doesn't work because I denounce my country in equal measure. I loath excessive concentrations of power that use that power in malicious and immoral ways and in many regards the UK and America are much the same in that regard.
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
But that was not the reason why we went to Afghanistan. Stop changing the goalposts. We went there to capture terrorists that we thought were being harboured in Afghanistan. If the pretext was to change Afghanistan politically then there should have been an open discussion and a case built up. As things stand we were trigger happy and invaded within weeks of 9-11. It was a mess and we were wrong.
You have to respect international law or else you just become a terrorist state yourself. America is a terrorist state.
LOL, who is changing goalposts? The lack of clarity in your thinking is pretty funny. We ABSOLUTELY went to Afghanistan to change it politically. Here is the clincher statement by President Bush before Congress.
And tonight, the United States of America makes the following demands on the Taliban: Deliver to United States authorities all the leaders of al Qaeda who hide in your land. Release all foreign nationals, including American citizens, you have unjustly imprisoned. Protect foreign journalists, diplomats, and aid workers in your country. Close immediately and permanently every terrorist training camp in Afghanistan, and hand over every terrorist, and every person in their support structure, to appropriate authorities. Give the United States full access to terrorist training camps, so we can make sure they are no longer operating. These demands are not open to negotiation or discussion. The Taliban must act, and act immediately. They will hand over the terrorists, or they will share in their fate.
Pretty clear that the Taliban either acts or is stripped of power aka changing Afghanistan politically.
LOL at "Respect International Law or you are a terrorist state." Fishing inside a twelve mile limit doesn't make one a terrorist. Terrorism can be defined in a pretty straightforward manner. Intentionally targeting non-combatants with violence in forwarding a political goal.
Osama was a combatant, we sent in troops instead of simply bombing the place (clearly safer towards non-combatants). So it fails to meet a reasonable definition.
I assume you're a Brit. If you are, it is ESPECIALLY funny judgemental stuff coming from a citizen of a nation responsible for the Amritsar Massacre, The Loughall Ambush, the "shoot to kill" policy towards the IRA, the Bombing of Dresden and on and on and on.
So when the Taliban asked for evidence proving that Bin Laden was behind the 9-11 attack what was the US response? You decided to go after a collective group of terrorists by invading a sovereign country with little planning and no real anticipation of the consequences. This is why the Afghanistan conquest has gone on far longer than WW2. It was a mess. There was no case made against the Taliban, they did not cause 9-11. Afghanistan was invaded within days of 9-11. Just as Obama is a terrorist, Bush and Blair are war criminals. All of them are monsters. It's just that two of them are viewed as legit and immune and the other is/was an outcast.
You are trying to twist the argument in anticipation of me somehow becoming patriotic about acts of terrorism commited by my own country. It doesn't work because I denounce my country in equal measure. I loath excessive concentrations of power that use that power in malicious and immoral ways and in many regards the UK and America are much the same in that regard.
LOL, NOW who is trying to move the goalposts? LOL, no planning???????? Let's see, the Soviets lose a million men in a decade and can't do anyhting but get shot at, we take 7,000 men, ally ourselves with the Northern Alliance and take down the Taliban in what sixty days, hold elections within a year and you say there was no planning?????? Bwahahahahaha. Come on, seriously, get a grip! We didn't have elections in Germany after WWII until what? 1955? Japan didn't have any until 1957?
Saying the Taliban didn't cause 9/11 is absolutely right...and absolutely a dumb way to look at things. THEY WERE HARBORING THOSE WHO DID!
Glad to see you despise your own nation. Good luck loathing power from behind your keyboard where you benifit daily from it. I'm sure you'll have a major impact! Oh wait, maybe you can speak truth to power and get a high five from Noam Chomsky!
Invading Afghanistan was, by any reasonable ethical code, justified. One can always argue about its wisdom of course, but that's not what we are talking here. Calling Bush and Blair war criminals robs those words of any useful meaning.
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
You have doubled the number of troops since Obama took power and have been there nigh on a decade. You are fighting people that basically want their nation to be free from foreign invaders. The number of Al Qaeda in Afghanistan is estimated to be a few dozen at best. It was poorly planned, you don't try to catch terrorists by invading a nation. What should have happened is that we provided some evidence that Bin Laden and co caused 9-11. We refused to do this and chose to invade regardless. Now if you regard that as legitimate and correct behaviour then that is your call. I view it quite differently. You want to try someone then you need to show the evidence. We didn't do it then and just this week we once again used a bullet rather than try to bring a man to trial.
As for trying to change the world, I am not trying to do that. I have my own work to do and post here for leisure. This is just what I enjoy doing. Actually it would be a great honour to high five Mr Chomsky. He is one of America's true heroes.
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Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
You have doubled the number of troops since Obama took power and have been there nigh on a decade. You are fighting people that basically want their nation to be free from foreign invaders. The number of Al Qaeda in Afghanistan is estimated to be a few dozen at best. It was poorly planned, you don't try to catch terrorists by invading a nation. What should have happened is that we provided some evidence that Bin Laden and co caused 9-11. We refused to do this and chose to invade regardless. Now if you regard that as legitimate and correct behaviour then that is your call. I view it quite differently. You want to try someone then you need to show the evidence. We didn't do it then and just this week we once again used a bullet rather than try to bring a man to trial.
As for trying to change the world, I am not trying to do that. I have my own work to do and post here for leisure. This is just what I enjoy doing. Actually it would be a great honour to high five Mr Chomsky. He is one of America's true heroes.
But as I proved earlier, we weren't merely trying to catch terrorists. We were changing the gov't as well. There is PLENTY of evidence Osama sponsored 9/11 and the Cole Bombing and the Dual Embassy Bombings of 1996 and the Khoabr Towers bombings of 1996 and the one where he tried to kill me (among others) the WTC bombing of 1993.
Again, the notion that WAR is simply another crime flies in the face of 1800 years of Western thought as well as common sense. War is war. Sherman was right, it really cannot be refined.
Noam Chomsky is an immoral slug. Anyone who supported the Khmer Rouge is despicable.
I'm done for the night. Thanks as always for your thoughts...such as they are ;)
