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I can't see Tyson beating Foreman i think he is to mentally weak to make it through it. I think Holyfeild would of been able to outpoint Foreman as well and as for as the Bowie fight Holydfeild had some serious health issues before that fight happen. Also i don't remember Holyfield being sparked just more like he could not breath and was pretty out of it for that fight.
We are constantly told that this style and size is made for Foreman and are always given Frazier as the model. However, Tyson and Frazier are totally different fighters. Tyson in his own way was like a HW Pacquiao, he was hard to hit, had devastating power and would come at you with either hand. Sure Tyson could sometimes be hit with the uppercut, woopy doo. Foreman could be hit with practically anything, his defence was as leaky as a 400 ear old ceiling. Tyson would be on him in a flash and would have landed 3 punches before Foreman realised that Tyson was now in close and mauling him. It would be extremely frustrating for Foreman. Tyson wouldn't just stand on the outside like Frazier allowing Foreman to swing at the moving target. He would use his movement, land, get inside, rinse and repeat. Foreman would be too slow and ponderous to do anything about it. Tyson's handspeed was that good.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
I refuse to listen to examples of Tyson post prison as that was a different beast and the style had unfolded. In fact, it unfolded post Bruno really, but he was still a fine athletic being and the power stayed along with great instincts, but technically he wasn't the same after Rooney left. The prime Tyson took anyones punch, was faster than almost every other heavyweight, hit just as hard and was extremely difficult to pin down. He would have given Foreman fits.
Tyson downplays a lot of his achievements these days. He hates boxing and all of that. He messed up a lot of his life, but even if he says his stamina was suspect, the evidence suggests otherwise. Even in going the distance, he always won every round and outworked his opponent. Tyson/Bonecrusher Smith was his very own Pac/Mosley. Not inspiring, but took every round for the decision. Foreman rarely went the distance himself and Ali showed that Foreman's ring IQ and stamina was average.
Tyson takes him.
Totally, I hate the Frazier/Tyson comparisons really. It's a lazy connection.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterTyson was far more elusive and punched from angles that the bigger men could not see. Tyson was a quality boxer, who punched with speed and venom. Totally different animal to Frasier.Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
I always used to think that Miles, but thinking about it. Apart from the height and aggressive style. There overall style isn't really alike, i mean Joe Frazier didn't really have good footwork and his defense wasn't like Mike Tyson's.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesTotally, I hate the Frazier/Tyson comparisons really. It's a lazy connection.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterTyson was far more elusive and punched from angles that the bigger men could not see. Tyson was a quality boxer, who punched with speed and venom. Totally different animal to Frasier.Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
I remember when Mike Tyson made one guy miss, like 10 punches in a row then countered with a left hook to floor him that was great.
I mean a blown up Light Heavyweight Dwight Muhammad Qawi, held his own vs George Foreman who was short and had aggressive style. I mean you could also point out that fight aswell.
Who are you trying to kid? George Foreman was powerful, but not moreso than the Klitschko brothers who also have way more skill than he did. There is no way he gets through or around Wladimir's jab.Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
Do you know why Tyson is usually compared to Frazier? Well for one they are both short and stocky HWs with short reaches, secondly they both have a very similar style in the bobbing and weaving to get inside because of their lack of height and reach. And Tyson throughout this career was susceptible to the uppercuts as I have listed, yeah woopy doo, he only got stunned numerous times by other fighters and was on queer street when Buster Douglas landed and then was knocked out. Those are facts. Lastly, '73 Foreman just walked through punches that didn't faze him or hurt him or wobble him, it was only after the '74 Ali fight that he was mentally messed up and looked vulnerable. We're talking about a '73 Foreman here.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesWe are constantly told that this style and size is made for Foreman and are always given Frazier as the model. However, Tyson and Frazier are totally different fighters. Tyson in his own way was like a HW Pacquiao, he was hard to hit, had devastating power and would come at you with either hand. Sure Tyson could sometimes be hit with the uppercut, woopy doo. Foreman could be hit with practically anything, his defence was as leaky as a 400 ear old ceiling. Tyson would be on him in a flash and would have landed 3 punches before Foreman realised that Tyson was now in close and mauling him. It would be extremely frustrating for Foreman. Tyson wouldn't just stand on the outside like Frazier allowing Foreman to swing at the moving target. He would use his movement, land, get inside, rinse and repeat. Foreman would be too slow and ponderous to do anything about it. Tyson's handspeed was that good.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
I refuse to listen to examples of Tyson post prison as that was a different beast and the style had unfolded. In fact, it unfolded post Bruno really, but he was still a fine athletic being and the power stayed along with great instincts, but technically he wasn't the same after Rooney left. The prime Tyson took anyones punch, was faster than almost every other heavyweight, hit just as hard and was extremely difficult to pin down. He would have given Foreman fits.
Tyson downplays a lot of his achievements these days. He hates boxing and all of that. He messed up a lot of his life, but even if he says his stamina was suspect, the evidence suggests otherwise. Even in going the distance, he always won every round and outworked his opponent. Tyson/Bonecrusher Smith was his very own Pac/Mosley. Not inspiring, but took every round for the decision. Foreman rarely went the distance himself and Ali showed that Foreman's ring IQ and stamina was average.
Tyson takes him.
Another thing, Mosley never got Manny hurt, Bonecrusher Smith had him wobbled and Tyson looked to be in serious trouble before the round and fight ended. And another thing Tyson looked very ordinary in many fights even with Rooney in his corner. See Green fight, Bonecrusher Smith fight, Tucker fight, Tillis fight, etc. This whole Iron Mike was invincible under Rooney was completely false.
But their styles are not particularly similar. I will grant you that they both had head movement and were stocky, but Tyson was much faster, clearly hit harder, threw combinations better and had a significantly better defence. Just watch the fighters back to back. Frazier is in no way a mirror of prime Mike Tyson. You talk about Tyson being hurt by Douglas and yet only want to focus on a prime Foreman yourself. That's unfair. Tyson didn't train for that fight and had been losing his technique since kicking Rooney out. Prime Tyson, ie the Tyson of 1988 was a different beast too.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogDo you know why Tyson is usually compared to Frazier? Well for one they are both short and stocky HWs with short reaches, secondly they both have a very similar style in the bobbing and weaving to get inside because of their lack of height and reach. And Tyson throughout this career was susceptible to the uppercuts as I have listed, yeah woopy doo, he only got stunned numerous times by other fighters and was on queer street when Buster Douglas landed and then was knocked out. Those are facts. Lastly, '73 Foreman just walked through punches that didn't faze him or hurt him or wobble him, it was only after the '74 Ali fight that he was mentally messed up and looked vulnerable. We're talking about a '73 Foreman here.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesWe are constantly told that this style and size is made for Foreman and are always given Frazier as the model. However, Tyson and Frazier are totally different fighters. Tyson in his own way was like a HW Pacquiao, he was hard to hit, had devastating power and would come at you with either hand. Sure Tyson could sometimes be hit with the uppercut, woopy doo. Foreman could be hit with practically anything, his defence was as leaky as a 400 ear old ceiling. Tyson would be on him in a flash and would have landed 3 punches before Foreman realised that Tyson was now in close and mauling him. It would be extremely frustrating for Foreman. Tyson wouldn't just stand on the outside like Frazier allowing Foreman to swing at the moving target. He would use his movement, land, get inside, rinse and repeat. Foreman would be too slow and ponderous to do anything about it. Tyson's handspeed was that good.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
I refuse to listen to examples of Tyson post prison as that was a different beast and the style had unfolded. In fact, it unfolded post Bruno really, but he was still a fine athletic being and the power stayed along with great instincts, but technically he wasn't the same after Rooney left. The prime Tyson took anyones punch, was faster than almost every other heavyweight, hit just as hard and was extremely difficult to pin down. He would have given Foreman fits.
Tyson downplays a lot of his achievements these days. He hates boxing and all of that. He messed up a lot of his life, but even if he says his stamina was suspect, the evidence suggests otherwise. Even in going the distance, he always won every round and outworked his opponent. Tyson/Bonecrusher Smith was his very own Pac/Mosley. Not inspiring, but took every round for the decision. Foreman rarely went the distance himself and Ali showed that Foreman's ring IQ and stamina was average.
Tyson takes him.
Another thing, Mosley never got Manny hurt, Bonecrusher Smith had him wobbled and Tyson looked to be in serious trouble before the round and fight ended. And another thing Tyson looked very ordinary in many fights even with Rooney in his corner. See Green fight, Bonecrusher Smith fight, Tucker fight, Tillis fight, etc. This whole Iron Mike was invincible under Rooney was completely false.
Tyson was exceptional up until Bruno and even then was better than everyone else. Sure, he might have gone the distance a couple of times, but how many rounds did he lose? Marquez hurt Manny, but that happens in boxing. Wippy doo. All fighters can be hurt, Tyson had a couple of moments, but was he ever in danger of losing fights? Was he bollocks.
Mike Tyson under D'Amato and Rooney was the best heavyweight in boxing history and that is all there is to it. :) He could evade most of your punches and would land several to your one. The only way to beat him is to stop him and that is why I favour him against Foreman. Unless Foreman knocks Tyson clean out then he will either lose a decision or get sparked himself whilst looking for the homerun.
yeah and who had no kidneys left after that fight either. Rope a dope sped up Ali's deterioration like youcant believe -- nobody talks about it but Dundee, that Ali had blood in his urine for 4 weeks after that fight. He basically was beat by the 6th round I mean also exhausted like Foreman, and could only lay on the ropes like a bum and take scores of thunderbombs right on the kidneys, of which one kidney was quite badly contused, I believe it was the right kidney due to Foreman's hooks.Quote:
That must be the case, because a still prime Foreman was humiliated by an ageing Muhammad Ali, who had no legs left in 1974.
As for K bros. beating Foreman, give me some of that shit youre smokin'.
Reason Tyson would get KTF out faster than Frazier was because Tyson rushing in would double the impact of a Foreman punch, whereas Frazier didnt really rush in.
Frazier didnt clinch either, whereas Tyson got into plenty of clinches and Foreman would banged him up so bad on the clinches, then pushed him away like a little gnat halfway across the ring. One of George's famous awkward rights to Tyson's kidney woulda been the end of Mike.
George Wrecking Ball Foreman from Marshall, Texas. Only comes around once in history.
also Foreman took 23 unanswered power shots from Holyfield in his prime, didnt go down though wobbled a bit. No way Tyson takes 23 unanswered Holy shots. Let alone 23 Foreman shots. Foreman had best chin in boxing history.
RON LYLE FIGHT PROVED THAT BEYOND A DOUBT. NO FUCKIN WAY ALI TAKES THOSE LYLE SHOTS AND GETS UP TWICE TO KO THE OPPONENT. LYLE TOOK FOREMAN'S HEAD OFF SEVERAL TIMES AND GEORGE ABSORBED IT.
Yes thats 5 consecutive posts as i drank 3 coffees really fast just now and am wired. As if panama lewis just gave me the one he mixed.
As much i watch Tyson as much i see that all his good fights are against "boxer" type boxers, which are making one and the same mistake...
Comparison between Frazier and Tyson is only possible about the size and shape, but in style there is absolutly nothing to compare. Frazier was classical swarmer, where Tyson tried to counter on streight punches and then clinch... For me here start all problems from Tyson. Formen didn't have streight punches and where Tyson loops all of his hooks Foreman will aways connect first because his are compact! Both of them have problems with boxers who can stand their ground and here againt Foreman is in advantage. I am sure that Foreman can make Tyson go backwards or he will just rest on him in the clinches...
I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesTotally, I hate the Frazier/Tyson comparisons really. It's a lazy connection.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterTyson was far more elusive and punched from angles that the bigger men could not see. Tyson was a quality boxer, who punched with speed and venom. Totally different animal to Frasier.Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
They both had similar physical builds & they both moved their heads a lot, but apart from that, they're different beasts entirely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
You are indeed entitled to your average opinion.
*Vitali would kill Foreman... "Little"George would last 6 rounds before the ref stopped it. George was wide open everytime he fought... Foreman was 6'4"... Vitali is 6'8"... George would weigh in at 225pounds... Vitali at 250 pounds... enough said.
http://i1037.photobucket.com/albums/..._joefindex.jpg
When you see Joe Frazier being destroyed and heading in the wrong direction you know very well the power of George Foreman in 1973!
By that logic 6'6 250 pound Jess Willard and 6'4 240 pound Carl Morris both KO'd 6'1 190 Jack Dempsey and 6'7 240 pound Buddy Baer KO'd 6'2 200 pound Joe Louis TWICE and 6'3 230 pound Arthur De Ku KO'd 5'7 175 pound Mickey Walker!Quote:
Originally Posted by bigstinkybug
I'll make sure the record book gets changed!
In reality of course the dramatically smaller man won by KO.
You're right I am using a prime Foreman because this thread is talking about the '73 version of Foreman which means he was 24 years old and in his prime! I also used the prime Tyson and showed examples that Tyson was vulnerable to uppercuts and seriously got hurt, wobble, and eventually knocked out. And Foreman threw a nasty uppercut. Foreman also hits harder than Smith, Tucker, Douglas, etc. And yeah I talked about Tyson being hurt by Buster Douglas by a right uppercut and eventually knocked out because that was a prime Tyson. Are you telling me that a 23 year old undefeated and undisputed HW champ with hardly any wear or tear on his body was not prime? Seriously that is just silly that you would assert that Tyson wasn't prime when he got knocked out in Tokyo.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesBut their styles are not particularly similar. I will grant you that they both had head movement and were stocky, but Tyson was much faster, clearly hit harder, threw combinations better and had a significantly better defence. Just watch the fighters back to back. Frazier is in no way a mirror of prime Mike Tyson. You talk about Tyson being hurt by Douglas and yet only want to focus on a prime Foreman yourself. That's unfair. Tyson didn't train for that fight and had been losing his technique since kicking Rooney out. Prime Tyson, ie the Tyson of 1988 was a different beast too.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogDo you know why Tyson is usually compared to Frazier? Well for one they are both short and stocky HWs with short reaches, secondly they both have a very similar style in the bobbing and weaving to get inside because of their lack of height and reach. And Tyson throughout this career was susceptible to the uppercuts as I have listed, yeah woopy doo, he only got stunned numerous times by other fighters and was on queer street when Buster Douglas landed and then was knocked out. Those are facts. Lastly, '73 Foreman just walked through punches that didn't faze him or hurt him or wobble him, it was only after the '74 Ali fight that he was mentally messed up and looked vulnerable. We're talking about a '73 Foreman here.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesWe are constantly told that this style and size is made for Foreman and are always given Frazier as the model. However, Tyson and Frazier are totally different fighters. Tyson in his own way was like a HW Pacquiao, he was hard to hit, had devastating power and would come at you with either hand. Sure Tyson could sometimes be hit with the uppercut, woopy doo. Foreman could be hit with practically anything, his defence was as leaky as a 400 ear old ceiling. Tyson would be on him in a flash and would have landed 3 punches before Foreman realised that Tyson was now in close and mauling him. It would be extremely frustrating for Foreman. Tyson wouldn't just stand on the outside like Frazier allowing Foreman to swing at the moving target. He would use his movement, land, get inside, rinse and repeat. Foreman would be too slow and ponderous to do anything about it. Tyson's handspeed was that good.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
I refuse to listen to examples of Tyson post prison as that was a different beast and the style had unfolded. In fact, it unfolded post Bruno really, but he was still a fine athletic being and the power stayed along with great instincts, but technically he wasn't the same after Rooney left. The prime Tyson took anyones punch, was faster than almost every other heavyweight, hit just as hard and was extremely difficult to pin down. He would have given Foreman fits.
Tyson downplays a lot of his achievements these days. He hates boxing and all of that. He messed up a lot of his life, but even if he says his stamina was suspect, the evidence suggests otherwise. Even in going the distance, he always won every round and outworked his opponent. Tyson/Bonecrusher Smith was his very own Pac/Mosley. Not inspiring, but took every round for the decision. Foreman rarely went the distance himself and Ali showed that Foreman's ring IQ and stamina was average.
Tyson takes him.
Another thing, Mosley never got Manny hurt, Bonecrusher Smith had him wobbled and Tyson looked to be in serious trouble before the round and fight ended. And another thing Tyson looked very ordinary in many fights even with Rooney in his corner. See Green fight, Bonecrusher Smith fight, Tucker fight, Tillis fight, etc. This whole Iron Mike was invincible under Rooney was completely false.
Tyson was exceptional up until Bruno and even then was better than everyone else. Sure, he might have gone the distance a couple of times, but how many rounds did he lose? Marquez hurt Manny, but that happens in boxing. Wippy doo. All fighters can be hurt, Tyson had a couple of moments, but was he ever in danger of losing fights? Was he bollocks.
Mike Tyson under D'Amato and Rooney was the best heavyweight in boxing history and that is all there is to it. :) He could evade most of your punches and would land several to your one. The only way to beat him is to stop him and that is why I favour him against Foreman. Unless Foreman knocks Tyson clean out then he will either lose a decision or get sparked himself whilst looking for the homerun.
The right comparison for Tyson is, of course, the man D'amato modeled him on. Dempsey.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syntax ErrorI agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesTotally, I hate the Frazier/Tyson comparisons really. It's a lazy connection.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterTyson was far more elusive and punched from angles that the bigger men could not see. Tyson was a quality boxer, who punched with speed and venom. Totally different animal to Frasier.Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
They both had similar physical builds & they both moved their heads a lot, but apart from that, they're different beasts entirely.
I know that everyone knows that the young Foreman was a deadly puncher, no doubt about it but he had one glaring weakness that his handlers were too lazy to work on. It was his endurance. I guess they were of the adage that if something isn't broke then don't fix it. The best muscle cars in the world need tuneups. George needed more coaching and more roadwork as depicted by the Ali loss. When George made his comeback his ability and not just his power even with all those fighters that didn't seem to have a chance with him served as a classroom until he won that coveted title. If he had the smarts he displayed as an older fighter in his youth, it would have been a long reign. One thing more, the guys at the top of the heavyweight division today have nothing on that young naive Foreman.
100% correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiThe right comparison for Tyson is, of course, the man D'amato modeled him on. Dempsey.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syntax ErrorI agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesTotally, I hate the Frazier/Tyson comparisons really. It's a lazy connection.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterTyson was far more elusive and punched from angles that the bigger men could not see. Tyson was a quality boxer, who punched with speed and venom. Totally different animal to Frasier.Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
They both had similar physical builds & they both moved their heads a lot, but apart from that, they're different beasts entirely.
Tyson himself has said this.
He even copied Dempsey's 'soup bowl' hairstyle at one point in his career; that's how much he modelled himself on Dempsey.