Wanna make an Ass of yourself and say Klıts can fıght lıke thıs?

Vitail because of his size, power, and iron chin can hang in any era of HW history. I'm not too sure about Wlad because of his chin. I don't see Holmes or NOrton knocking out the older brother, maybe Wlad but definitely not Vitali.

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

Vitail because of his size, power, and iron chin can hang in any era of HW history. I'm not too sure about Wlad because of his chin. I don't see Holmes or NOrton knocking out the older brother, maybe Wlad but definitely not Vitali.

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Maybe but Holmes would beat Vitali as he is too rigid and Holmes was more fluid.

Vitali is the only threat in any era.
Wlad can exist in this era only.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

OK, a few things here brockton

#1 The Klitschko's can't throw 75+ punches a round for 15 rounds for a couple of reasons A) They don't have 15 round fights anymore, B ) Even if they did have 15 round fights nobody could last 15 with either brother

#2 The Klitschko's are bigger & more muscular than the fighters of the past. More muscles require more oxygen so in order not to gas out they can't fight that way and if they did their punches wouldn't be as hard because it would be like a sprinter vs a marathon runner, their bodies would look totally different and as a result they would fight in a totally different manner.

#3 Stop being such a Negative Nancy "Oh things USED to be great but now everything sucks". You're a cynical asshole. You want everyone to fight 1 certain way and I'm here to tell you tough shit, boxing has NEVER been like that and when you do all this "Well back in ye olde times" bullshit you're painting a picture that isn't the truth. Not every single fucking fight in the 50's, 60's, 70's etc were exciting blood and guts battles. In the past they had boring fights too, it happened.

#4 When you get in your Tourette's mode you annoy the piss out of me and seeing how I'm in no mode to take any extra bullshit from anyone I'll just let you know as a warning beforehand. Keep it up and I'll add you to my ignore list, something I've only recently come to value as no doubt miles will find out upon his return.

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Hahahahaha !

This is fucking great.

Brockton is like the loveable meatwad (Aqua Teen Hunger Force) or comic relief or cooky old uncle of the forum.

You can't take him seriously. He's crazy, but a nice enough fellow and loves boxing.

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Originally Posted by imp

Vitali is the only threat in any era.
Wlad can exist in this era only.

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Wlad would have dominated Holmes' era & Tyson's era and the farther back in time we go the smaller and smaller his opponents would be. People like to assume Wlad hasn't beaten any big punchers at all and that he just folds up vs them and that's absolutely ridiculous. At the lowest point in his career Wlad fought the biggest most dangerous puncher (who was undefeated at the time) the division could offer....and Wlad won. Wlad fought David Haye and had 0 issues, Wlad fought Derrick Jefferson who was a big time puncher.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by imp

Vitali is the only threat in any era.
Wlad can exist in this era only.

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Wlad would have dominated Holmes' era & Tyson's era and the farther back in time we go the smaller and smaller his opponents would be. People like to assume Wlad hasn't beaten any big punchers at all and that he just folds up vs them and that's absolutely ridiculous. At the lowest point in his career Wlad fought the biggest most dangerous puncher (who was undefeated at the time) the division could offer....and Wlad won. Wlad fought David Haye and had 0 issues, Wlad fought Derrick Jefferson who was a big time puncher.

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Wlad also got knocked out by Sanders, Brewster and Puritty. And on Saturday night breifly went to pieces when caught with a punch, like he did against Sam Peter. None of these fighters would be memorable in any era.

So it's very understandable that people won't buy Wlad as a dominate force that would've reigned in any era.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Wlad also got knocked out by Sanders, Brewster and Puritty. And on Saturday night breifly went to pieces when caught with a punch, like he did against Sam Peter. None of these fighters would be memorable in any era.

So it's very understandable that people won't buy Wlad as a dominate force that would've reigned in any era.

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Yes and Larry Holmes was beaten by a Michael Spinks and floored by several guys Wlad would have demolished.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Wlad also got knocked out by Sanders, Brewster and Puritty. And on Saturday night breifly went to pieces when caught with a punch, like he did against Sam Peter. None of these fighters would be memorable in any era.

So it's very understandable that people won't buy Wlad as a dominate force that would've reigned in any era.

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Yes and Larry Holmes was beaten by a Michael Spinks and floored by several guys Wlad would have demolished.

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how are those good points? Holmes was robbed agaınst Spınks. And floored means nothıng---Ali was floored too. Bıg deal. Ali wasnt crawlin' cross the floor puckering his bung hole like Wlad agaınst Brewster or Sanders now was he? :cool:

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Wlad also got knocked out by Sanders, Brewster and Puritty. And on Saturday night breifly went to pieces when caught with a punch, like he did against Sam Peter. None of these fighters would be memorable in any era.

So it's very understandable that people won't buy Wlad as a dominate force that would've reigned in any era.

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Yes and Larry Holmes was beaten by a Michael Spinks and floored by several guys Wlad would have demolished.

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how are those good points? Holmes was robbed agaınst Spınks. And floored means nothıng---Ali was floored too. Bıg deal. Ali wasnt crawlin' cross the floor puckering his bung hole like Wlad agaınst Brewster or Sanders now was he? :cool:

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Oh that's totally an awesome point you make there brockton :cool: ....do you think Renaldo Snipes would have tagged Wladimir the way he tagged Holmes? Do you think Wlad would struggle mightily against Ken Norton? Do you think that Tim Witherspoon who only had 15 pro fights (and got robbed vs Holmes) would beat Wladimir? I mean that's cool if you do I mean after all you're the one with the sucky-fucky sucky tin foil hat wearing sucky fucky shit for brains.....or don't you appreciate that kind of posting?


Soon Wladimir will be second only to Joe Louis in terms of how long he's reigned at the top of the division....meaning he'll pass Larry Holmes and he's been past Ali for quite some time.

[QUOTE=El Kabong;1111724]

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

sucky-fucky sucky tin foil hat wearing sucky fucky.

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Lyle you're starting to improve---that ıs the best shit you've ever written dude!

In fairness to Wlad, he has not been knocked down in close to 7 years and 14 title defenses but that needs to be looked at objectively. Its because Manny taught him how to lean on smaller opponents and grab. In addition the Bellflower bomber probably beats most of the small guys he faced.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

In fairness to Wlad, he has not been knocked down in close to 7 years and 14 title defenses but that needs to be looked at objectively. Its because Manny taught him how to lean on smaller opponents and grab. In addition the Bellflower bomber probably beats most of the small guys he faced.

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the mınute he faces a same-size guy he goes the dıstance and Vıt ın hıs prıme couldnt win agaınst a washed-up Lewıs.

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

In fairness to Wlad, he has not been knocked down in close to 7 years and 14 title defenses but that needs to be looked at objectively. Its because Manny taught him how to lean on smaller opponents and grab. In addition the Bellflower bomber probably beats most of the small guys he faced.

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the mınute he faces a same-size guy he goes the dıstance and Vıt ın hıs prıme couldnt win agaınst a washed-up Lewıs.

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I think big brother could have competed in any era as stated previously and he was ahead of Lewis before suffering that nasty gash but that's boxing.I just think the two of them on a whole have their accomplishments blown way out of proportion hence my example of a stat that has never been done before. 7 years as champ and never hitting the deck. Its a deceiving stat because of the playing field. Shit he will probably beat Louis's record. There are several people in the seventies that never broke through because of the era they fought in who would have beaten anyone Wlad has fought. Ron Lyle probably beats anyone on his ledger. I mean if Primo Carnera learned how to hold and lean over his opponents he may have been champ for ten years.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

In fairness to Wlad, he has not been knocked down in close to 7 years and 14 title defenses but that needs to be looked at objectively. Its because Manny taught him how to lean on smaller opponents and grab. In addition the Bellflower bomber probably beats most of the small guys he faced.

---

the mınute he faces a same-size guy he goes the dıstance and Vıt ın hıs prıme couldnt win agaınst a washed-up Lewıs.

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I think big brother could have competed in any era as stated previously and he was ahead of Lewis before suffering that nasty gash but that's boxing.I just think the two of them on a whole have their accomplishments blown way out of proportion hence my example of a stat that has never been done before. 7 years as champ and never hitting the deck. Its a deceiving stat because of the playing field. Shit he will probably beat Louis's record. There are several people in the seventies that never broke through because of the era they fought in who would have beaten anyone Wlad has fought. Ron Lyle probably beats anyone on his ledger. I mean if Primo Carnera learned how to hold and lean over his opponents he may have been champ for ten years.

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thıs ıs what I thınk too. Yes. This.

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

the mınute he faces a same-size guy he goes the dıstance and Vıt ın hıs prıme couldnt win agaınst a washed-up Lewıs.

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:vd:

#1 Wlad has fought plenty of fighters his same size, the difference with Wach is Wach is BIGGER than Wladimir. Tony Thompson was the same size as Wlad, Jameel McCline same size, Derrick Jefferson same size, David Bostice roughly the same size.

#2 Vitali took the fight on short notice and was told there would be a rematch.....but in the end there was no rematch to be had.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

the mınute he faces a same-size guy he goes the dıstance and Vıt ın hıs prıme couldnt win agaınst a washed-up Lewıs.

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:vd:

#1 Wlad has fought plenty of fighters his same size, the difference with Wach is Wach is BIGGER than Wladimir. Tony Thompson was the same size as Wlad, Jameel McCline same size, Derrick Jefferson same size, David Bostice roughly the same size.

#2 Vitali took the fight on short notice and was told there would be a rematch.....but in the end there was no rematch to be had.

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so a guy lıke Wach can stretch the alltıme great Wladmır Klıtschko to a 12 round decısıon.

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

so a guy lıke Wach can stretch the alltıme great Wladmır Klıtschko to a 12 round decısıon.

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And Ali went the distance with the great Rudy Lubbers and that's when they fought 15 so Ali had 3 more rounds to finish the job so what's your fucking point brockton

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

so a guy lıke Wach can stretch the alltıme great Wladmır Klıtschko to a 12 round decısıon.

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And Ali went the distance with the great Rudy Lubbers and that's when they fought 15 so Ali had 3 more rounds to finish the job so what's your fucking point brockton

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point is: who cares about Lubbers? İt's Klitschko that sucks, not Ali.

And yet another Wlad thread that dabbles in the extremes.
There's arguments on both sides:

Pro-Wlad:
Sans the three KO losses early in his career, he's dispatched everybody they've put in front of him. Is it Wlad's fault the HW division is a bunch of "out-of-shape", "scared-shitless", mediocre bums? He fights whoever they put in front of him. He's never ducked anybody, which in itself is more than other fighters out there today. He has amassed a great record, and he'll end up with HOF numbers by the time he finishes his career. He comes into the ring in good physical shape, which again is something that cannot be said for a good 90% of the blubberbutts out there today. He doesn't talk shit to generate interest in a fight, only to turn around and give a 5% effort (like Haye).

Anti-Wlad:
I don't care what anybody says... he's never been truly tested. There's been no epic fights, with back and forth action, taking as well as dishing out. No one's come to truly fight him. Again... it's not his fault, but he's been only too happy to take advantage of his opponents mediocrity and/or fear. His fights are not aesthetically pleasing to all. Some like his style... but many more don't. He seems to fight down to his opponent's skill level, doing just enough to get the decision, or an ultra-safe knockout.


You see... the thing with Wlad is: I believe has little or no confidence in his ability to take a punch. And he may well be chinny. He's never taken a good punch from a great fighter, and have to fight his way back. The times he was caught early in his career, he never survived the initial KD's. So even at this stage, there's some questions. And his lack of confidence in his chin, makes him fight ultra-safe. Engaging in boring paw-fests like with Sultan. Just the threat of a wayward punch from Sultan was enough to send Wlad into a totally defensive posture, and in the process bore us into a coma. But Sultan was as much, if not more to blame. He was there to try and take the title, something not one of Wlad's opponents seems to remember when they step into that ring.

Sad thing is: time's running out on the window for Wlad to be tested in something even remotely resembling an epic fight. Everyone talks about HW prospects, but they're all too green and a few years away from being good enough to challenge Wlad. And by that time, Wlad will have Father Time as a good reason to bow out.

He got up when Sam Peter knocked him down and he won that fight....but you're saying that doesn't count because???

Oh it counts. But Sam Peter turned out to be one of the more over-hyped HWs of our time. It reminded me of the pre-Lewis Tua.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Oh it counts. But Sam Peter turned out to be one of the more over-hyped HWs of our time. It reminded me of the pre-Lewis Tua.

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:rolleyes: ....not like I called that waaaay back when everyone was so impressed by his KO of Jeremy Williams.


The point is Wlad at his very lowest psychologically took on the hottest undefeated big time power punching prospect and won when everyone was ready to write him off and even Vitali was calling for Wlad to retire. So let's not play revisionist historian and act like it was "no big deal".

Sam Peter was a joke, his performance against Vitali was pathetic.

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Originally Posted by Master

Sam Peter was a joke, his performance against Vitali was pathetic.

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:vd: but Wlad didn't fight THAT Sam Peter he fought the one that everyone was amazed at and then later the one that was trying to redeem himself for the shit parade he had vs Vitali.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by Master

Sam Peter was a joke, his performance against Vitali was pathetic.

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:vd: but Wlad didn't fight THAT Sam Peter he fought the one that everyone was amazed at and then later the one that was trying to redeem himself for the shit parade he had vs Vitali.

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I know that, my point being he was poor to begin with the fat lazy prat.

Lyle, when all you can pull out of the magic hat is Sam Peter to prove your point, you gotta know you're reaching. Wlad hasn't had any epic fights, and you know it. One thing is to defend Wlad to the death... quite another is to ignore facts that jump at you like cheap neon signs in the red light district.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Lyle, when all you can pull out of the magic hat is Sam Peter to prove your point, you gotta know you're reaching. Wlad hasn't had any epic fights, and you know it. One thing is to defend Wlad to the death... quite another is to ignore facts that jump at you like cheap neon signs in the red light district.

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It's hardly Wlad's fault.....there's no foil to him in the division. You can bitch all you want to about it but really all that you "anti-Klitschko" people can do is just sit back and wait for someone to fight Wlad the way yall apparently want to see.


Until that time, you can wish for a heavyweight saviour that will fulfill your boxing needs in one hand and shit in the other and see which one fills up first

:lyle:

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Lyle, when all you can pull out of the magic hat is Sam Peter to prove your point, you gotta know you're reaching. Wlad hasn't had any epic fights, and you know it. One thing is to defend Wlad to the death... quite another is to ignore facts that jump at you like cheap neon signs in the red light district.

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It's hardly Wlad's fault.....there's no foil to him in the division. You can bitch all you want to about it but really all that you "anti-Klitschko" people can do is just sit back and wait for someone to fight Wlad the way yall apparently want to see.


Until that time, you can wish for a heavyweight saviour that will fulfill your boxing needs in one hand and shit in the other and see which one fills up first

:lyle:

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Boxing fans according to Lyle:



1. Those who feel Wlad walks on water, and is on his way to being "The Greatest Damn Heavyweight To Ever Walk the Face of The Earth".

2. "Anti-Klitschko" people.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Boxing fans according to Lyle:



1. Those who feel Wlad walks on water, and is on his way to being "The Greatest Damn Heavyweight To Ever Walk the Face of The Earth".

2. "Anti-Klitschko" people.

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Did I say he was "The Greatest of All-Time"??? No so how's about you take your hyperbole and cram it!

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Boxing fans according to Lyle:



1. Those who feel Wlad walks on water, and is on his way to being "The Greatest Damn Heavyweight To Ever Walk the Face of The Earth".

2. "Anti-Klitschko" people.

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Did I say he was "The Greatest of All-Time"??? No so how's about you take your hyperbole and cram it!

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I gave an objective account on Wlad, and you called me "anti-Klitschko". Clearly, it's the same "all or nothing" story with you. Are you this extreme about EVERY subject?

;D

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

I gave an objective account on Wlad, and you called me "anti-Klitschko". Clearly, it's the same "all or nothing" story with you. Are you this extreme about EVERY subject?

;D

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:shakehead:

You gave Wlad 0 respect for his fight vs Sam Peter. Although now everyone can look back at Sam Peter and see that he had holes in his game (that I had mentioned beforehand of course) at the time it was a 50/50 fight. It was one with some adversity and it was a turning point for Wladimir's career.

You can say "Well he hasn't gone toe to toe with anyone out there" and well that's because IT'S FUCKING STUPID TO DO THAT...I hope there's a tiny little part of you that understands that. When you get hit by someone that weighs 240+ pounds or even just a 200+ pound person it doesn't "tickle". Wladimir is a smart fighter and you can bitch about him all you want to (which I'm fucking certain you will) but it's not going to change the fact that the man is a great boxer......not the greatest ever, he's just simply a great heavyweight fighter.

People bitched about Lennox, they bitched about Holyfield, and they'll bitch about whoever comes after Wladimir providing the world lasts that long considering how many cynical douchebags are following boxing these days.

Lennox beat the holyfield and best klit of all time.
Lennox was the last great heavyweight.
Wlad and vitali will always rank behind lennox in the hall of fame..and they should be very happy with that..and so should we.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

I gave an objective account on Wlad, and you called me "anti-Klitschko". Clearly, it's the same "all or nothing" story with you. Are you this extreme about EVERY subject?

;D

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:shakehead:

You gave Wlad 0 respect for his fight vs Sam Peter. Although now everyone can look back at Sam Peter and see that he had holes in his game (that I had mentioned beforehand of course) at the time it was a 50/50 fight. It was one with some adversity and it was a turning point for Wladimir's career.

You can say "Well he hasn't gone toe to toe with anyone out there" and well that's because IT'S FUCKING STUPID TO DO THAT...I hope there's a tiny little part of you that understands that. When you get hit by someone that weighs 240+ pounds or even just a 200+ pound person it doesn't "tickle". Wladimir is a smart fighter and you can bitch about him all you want to (which I'm fucking certain you will) but it's not going to change the fact that the man is a great boxer......not the greatest ever, he's just simply a great heavyweight fighter.

People bitched about Lennox, they bitched about Holyfield, and they'll bitch about whoever comes after Wladimir providing the world lasts that long considering how many cynical douchebags are following boxing these days.

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No need to be condescending about it, Lyle. I understand the dynamics involved in boxing, the art of hitting and not getting hit. But you overestimate Sam Peter in the grand scheme of things, and since you're not very objective when it comes to Wlad, you'll hype up the fight like it was Ali-Frazier.

You damn right I'll continue to bitch about Wlad. I used to bitch about Lennox, but for a different reason. Lennox didn't always come prepared to fight. But when he did... he usually gave us fans a good show.

Problem with you is... there's never any gray area. It's all either black or white. One either loves Wlad, or else is a hater. You're the same way with politics, and I suspect about a lot of other things in life, as well.

Meh. There is such a thing as too much grey. Trying to keep all your options open and hedge your bets. Lyle is consistent in his argument.

I find it amusing to hear Lennox mentioned in this because it wasn't too long ago that it was deemed that he was too boring and fights with a safety first approach to boxing.

I believe the K bros and Lewis to be top 10 ATG due to their athletic abilities and skills rather than quality of opposition.

To those who believed Ali and Frazier were perhaps at the zenith of the heavyweight era I'd recommend you to watch Ali vs Frazier II. The point im trying to make is that skill doesn't always make for an exciting fight nor do exciting fighters always fight exciting fights.

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

Meh. There is such a thing as too much grey. Trying to keep all your options open and hedge your bets. Lyle is consistent in his argument.

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You love Wlad and think he's the best thing since sliced bread..... or you're a hater?
I'd rather delve in the gray, thanks.


This isn't about "hedging bets" and "keeping options open".
It's about having an opinion of a fighter that lies somewhere between a god and a bum.

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Originally Posted by DavilaJones

I find it amusing to hear Lennox mentioned in this because it wasn't too long ago that it was deemed that he was too boring and fights with a safety first approach to boxing.

I believe the K bros and Lewis to be top 10 ATG due to their athletic abilities and skills rather than quality of opposition.

To those who believed Ali and Frazier were perhaps at the zenith of the heavyweight era I'd recommend you to watch Ali vs Frazier II. The point im trying to make is that skill doesn't always make for an exciting fight nor do exciting fighters always fight exciting fights.

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This times 1000!

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by DavilaJones

I find it amusing to hear Lennox mentioned in this because it wasn't too long ago that it was deemed that he was too boring and fights with a safety first approach to boxing.

I believe the K bros and Lewis to be top 10 ATG due to their athletic abilities and skills rather than quality of opposition.

To those who believed Ali and Frazier were perhaps at the zenith of the heavyweight era I'd recommend you to watch Ali vs Frazier II. The point im trying to make is that skill doesn't always make for an exciting fight nor do exciting fighters always fight exciting fights.

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This times 1000!

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Trouble is there is no truth to those allegations about Lennox and inferring that Lennox was anywhere near the style of Wlad is ridiculous.

Second that their athletic ability should be counted and not the quality of their competition begs the entire question of this thread and boxing legacy.

Thirdly the Ali/Frazier fights are but a small portion of the golden era.

That’s the trouble some times with hypothetical’s. They can generate all kinds of heat and very little light whatsoever. Facts become secondary to the ongoing argument. Better to state your claim and maybe redirect it once and then back out slowly with arms at your side lol.

what is going on in ths thread now :S klitschko cant fight like that :S not many guys can... who cares... they guy(wladimir) is pretty good... undeniably boring but he is very good in my opinion over the years I have heard people come up with the formula to beat them and they are going to do this and that and this again and i have just seen wladimir beat them all comfortably :S I think wlad is actually a lot better than he is given credit for, in my opinion, when he is on his game obviously, he would be competive with anyone... everyone has their ideas how to beat them but once they are there and feel the jab and get hit with the right their tactical masterplan is soon forgotten... wladimir controlls fights brilliant and sort of makes himself look bad but I think he is undoubtably very very good... I am a big fan of his but you wont hear any arguments from me that the guy is not boring he holds so much back, I have seen him in the past throw all sorts of punches but now he is happy to just dominate people with the jab and right straight... good punches and it works but I think he has lost a lot of skill too because of this... not sure if his chin is actually that bad, haye hit him, wach hit him really good and made him uncomfortable but i dont think he was close to being on queer street, it looks to me it is a case of he doesnt like getting hit more than he cant take a punch just now :S...
so err in the end i drank beer and forgot what i was posting :S but i think wladimir has suffered from the era he lives in too and lost a few skills that would have made him one of the best ever.. in my opinion he has proved that it would take an all time great to beat him(when he is on good form obviously).. I think if he had better competition... aka more david hayes(say what you want about the guy, i hate him, but he is a good fighter) then wlad would still have dominated but would have been forced to use more of his potential .... so errr i would say he is a contendor for top 10 all time heavyweight but also there are a few fellows who could beat him in his current state... I am biased though... he just doesnt use enough variation in his punches but he does win :S

Wlad deserves respect for what he has achieved in this era but if he had Lennox lewis opponents there would be a huge difference in resume.

Just think what a past prime lennox would have done to prime wlads last opponent.