Juan Manuel Marquez Tells Pacquiao To His Face Floyd Would Kick His Ass On ESPN First

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

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Originally Posted by imp

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Originally Posted by Fenster

@imp

You originally said Manny needs a 4th attempt at beating Marquez whereas Floyd would never need to rematch him. That is true. However, you have to accept that, if you judge fighters by common opponents then everyone has to be brought into the mix.

Judging Floyd/Pac through Marquez makes Floyd look far superior. Judging Floyd/Pac through Cotto makes Pac look far superior.

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Does floyd or manny need to rematch cotto as it was decisive in both fights.

The outcome would be the same.

BUT if manny fought cotto at his WEIGHT the majority would agree it would be harder for manny.

If floyd fought cotto at 147 it would still be same thing but possibly a late ko and even easier for floyd

Surely you would agree fenster that in each weight class that floyd fights cotto the outcome is the same but easier at 147?

On the other hand its harder for manny at the opponents weight and not weight drained...and that applies to oscar as well.

I cant say manny was more superior at beating cotto because cotto was at a disavantage in weight and he admits that.

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@imp -
Cotto:

After seeing Cotto dismantled by a legitimate junior middleweight in Austin Trout, do you still maintain that Cotto is/was best at 154? Frankly, Cotto was best pre-Margarito I. He was never quite the same afterward. In terms of his weight class, Cotto was best at 140-147. He's not even a big welterweight, let alone a junior middleweight. Floyd fought Cotto after Manny knocked him out. In terms of wear and tear, Cotto had been through 2 fights with Margarito and one bad knockout by Pacquiao, prior to fighting Floyd. In my humble, Manny did better against Cotto, in a weight class that Cotto historically has been more effective.

Hatton:

Somewhat a wash, Hatton had never been stopped when Floyd fought him, but he looked outsized against Floyd, and Floyd fought him at 147, not 140, where Hatton had been best. Recall Collazo-Hatton at 147 before Floyd got to him. Arguably, Collazo beat him at 147. Manny fought him after Floyd had knocked him out at Hatton's best weight. It all depends on how much the Floyd KO took out of Hatton. Thus, it's arguably a wash.

Margarito:

Floyd never faced him. Manny demolished him.

Marquez:

Floyd wins.

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Ortiz:-

Floyd ko him. Manny would never ever fight victor post berto.

Hatton:-

Hatton was undefeated!!!
Do you know the metal strength of an undefeated fighter?!
Hatton could never be the same after that!
Hatton got rid of his lifelong trainer and he was never the same!

Margarito:-

Lol! Drug cheat plaster wearing disgrace to mexicans and boxing!
This guy was already been beaten by paul williams and destroyed by moseley!
Plus, he had the added stress of the fact he was exposed and could not wear the plaster anymore!

Cotto:-

Cotto didnt fight pac at 147 it was a catchweight of 145!!!! Thats even worse.

Oscar:-

Its so obvious this one..you work it out fella.

JMM is getting English down pretty well. It's unfortunate that more great Mexican fighters don't. Little Ricardo Lopez could have made millions more if he had learned English--not that they should have to do so, mind you; it's just that so much of the paying demographic speaks English, and likes to hear them directly without a translator.
If one bases their career on being the voice of a culture, i.e. Duran for Panama or Julio Chavez sr. for Mexico, then this may not apply.
However, on the main, it is a great marketing strategy to be able to talk directly to the largest chunk of ppv buyers without translation

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Originally Posted by christianshreve

JMM is getting English down pretty well. It's unfortunate that more great Mexican fighters don't. Little Ricardo Lopez could have made millions more if he had learned English--not that they should have to do so, mind you; it's just that so much of the paying demographic speaks English, and likes to hear them directly without a translator.
If one bases their career on being the voice of a culture, i.e. Duran for Panama or Julio Chavez sr. for Mexico, then this may not apply.
However, on the main, it is a great marketing strategy to be able to talk directly to the largest chunk of ppv buyers without translation

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Marquez does quite well with the english but for some reason i expected pac to be better.

If I may ask a question to you all:

Let's say Mayweather fights Manny and win. Would this mean that he is the better or that his style suits him better to deal with an aggressive opponent? Styles do make fights. Frazier wasn't the greatest but he beat Ali.

I think it would of course be a mark of pride if one wins over the other but to say that the victor is superior wouldn't quite reflect the realities of boxing. Chavez was a damn great boxer but sweet pete spanked him, it takes nothing away from him.

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Originally Posted by DavilaJones

If I may ask a question to you all:

Let's say Mayweather fights Manny and win. Would this mean that he is the better or that his style suits him better to deal with an aggressive opponent? Styles do make fights. Frazier wasn't the greatest but he beat Ali.

I think it would of course be a mark of pride if one wins over the other but to say that the victor is superior wouldn't quite reflect the realities of boxing. Chavez was a damn great boxer but sweet pete spanked him, it takes nothing away from him.

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Pac could have made it interesting a couple of years ago but now he would be countered silly by Floyd. Shame.

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Originally Posted by Master

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Originally Posted by DavilaJones

If I may ask a question to you all:

Let's say Mayweather fights Manny and win. Would this mean that he is the better or that his style suits him better to deal with an aggressive opponent? Styles do make fights. Frazier wasn't the greatest but he beat Ali.

I think it would of course be a mark of pride if one wins over the other but to say that the victor is superior wouldn't quite reflect the realities of boxing. Chavez was a damn great boxer but sweet pete spanked him, it takes nothing away from him.

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Pac could have made it interesting a couple of years ago but now he would be countered silly by Floyd. Shame.

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It is a shame. But the same result would have prevailed.

Floyd and manny can fight till there 40!

Thats two fights a year and millions in the bank..they wont make that money anywhere else.

Manny wont last that long as he has no plan b in the ring..he cant adapt.

Outstanding question. Frazier was able to outwork Ali when Muhammad stopped moving. Ali was a runner, as a style, and Smokin' Joe fits the definition of what legendary trainer Kenny Weldon call a "fighter," meaning a pressure guy with good coordination between hands and feet who can force most movers out of their own rhythm over time.
Marquez is a stationary counter-fighter, while Floyd is a mobile counter fighter. All counter fighters are made to pick apart aggressive onrushing fighters.
In the book Money Boxing that comes out this week, style are broken down into a simple comparison of the child's game paper-rock-scissors.
In the book, a mobile counterpuncher beats a stationary one, which is what happened in the Mayweather-Marquez fight.
Mayweather likes to control distance and space, as his style dictates.
The tactical problem comes in when he is facing an opponent who advances faster than he is capable of retreating. Things get messy when that happens, style advantage or no.

The thing about pac is that you cant dislike him as a person.

Floyd can divide opinions..

Lets look at the advantages and disadvatages of each fighter:-

Pac:-

More powerful

Same speed?
Same stamina?

Floyd:-

Better defensive
Better boxer
Better accuracy
Better chin
Better reach
Better footwork
Better reflexes
Better resistance to cuts

Same speed?
Same stamina?

Without even being too biased to floyd this was easy.

Please dicuss.

Dont go quiet on me rantcatrat.

Also, whether pac took peds or not the size of his head has increased by at least a fifth which is another disadvantage for floyd to exploit

The whole "common opponent" thing really means nothing. Pac and Mayweather are different fighters. Manny is going to be more aggressive and KO more people. It is what it is.
You can't go by the old "A>B, C>A, so C>B" theory. Compare the common opponents of Ali and George Foreman in the same way, and you'd conclude that Ali wouldn't have made it past 2 rounds with George.

Styles make fights, and the thing that was the most telling for me was how Manny got outfoxed by Morales the first time and JMM. The things that these guy's used to give Manny fits, Floyd has and does better than both of them combined. Manny has a puncher's chance for sure, but conventional wisdom (IMO) always suggested that Floyd would be victorious.

But this is all academic at this point imo, because Floyd vs Manny will go down as one of boxing's biggest flubs. They blew the opportunity already. Back in 2009/early 2010, Manny looking like an unstoppable punching machine. Floyd looked as sharp and quick as ever.

Now, Manny has been beaten and looked lackluster in recent efforts. Whether or not you think Bradley won, you have to admit that Pac didn't look like a world beater by any stretch. And he got another gift against poor JMM. You even got Pac talking about retirement in the near future.

As far as Floyd goes, I think you can see that he is on the decline. His legs aren't what they used to be, and he's getting hit a lot more in recent fights. He's getting up there in age.

They had the opportunity to do this when both guys were peaking, where the hype was SO BIG that the winner would have an argument for the greatest of all time. It's still an interesting fight but it's lost a ton of luster.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

The whole "common opponent" thing really means nothing. Pac and Mayweather are different fighters. Manny is going to be more aggressive and KO more people. It is what it is.
You can't go by the old "A>B, C>A, so C>B" theory. Compare the common opponents of Ali and George Foreman in the same way, and you'd conclude that Ali wouldn't have made it past 2 rounds with George.

Styles make fights, and the thing that was the most telling for me was how Manny got outfoxed by Morales the first time and JMM. The things that these guy's used to give Manny fits, Floyd has and does better than both of them combined. Manny has a puncher's chance for sure, but conventional wisdom (IMO) always suggested that Floyd would be victorious.

But this is all academic at this point imo, because Floyd vs Manny will go down as one of boxing's biggest flubs. They blew the opportunity already. Back in 2009/early 2010, Manny looking like an unstoppable punching machine. Floyd looked as sharp and quick as ever.

Now, Manny has been beaten and looked lackluster in recent efforts. Whether or not you think Bradley won, you have to admit that Pac didn't look like a world beater by any stretch. And he got another gift against poor JMM. You even got Pac talking about retirement in the near future.

As far as Floyd goes, I think you can see that he is on the decline. His legs aren't what they used to be, and he's getting hit a lot more in recent fights. He's getting up there in age.

They had the opportunity to do this when both guys were peaking, where the hype was SO BIG that the winner would have an argument for the greatest of all time. It's still an interesting fight but it's lost a ton of luster.

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Great post.

For the rest of his life Floyd will have to deal with having caught the same fear factor virus that Roy Jones dealt with against Dariusz Michalczewski--he found a guy who spooked him and said no. Manny scared him into being unavailable. Whether or not we believe Floyd would have neutralized the combination machine that has been the pacman, Floyd was too scared to find out. Floyd could have been given the edge in every category, but he didn't think he could win, and the boxing fans could just suffer.
At his highest level, the most gifted froze like a 2nd grader at the edge of the local pool high dive. "No thanks, mister, I'm coming back down the ladder. Not because I'm scared of the dive, no sir. It's just that I've pooped my pants."
Mayweather's fear of Manny is phobic, and that means it is irrational as an elephant being scared of a mouse. Phobia's aren't rational, and we should let go of the fight and enjoy Pretty Boy Floyd's remaining excellence, even if he didn't overcome all of his personal demons. Hell, does anyone?

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Originally Posted by christianshreve

For the rest of his life Floyd will have to deal with having caught the same fear factor virus that Roy Jones dealt with against Dariusz Michalczewski--he found a guy who spooked him and said no. Manny scared him into being unavailable. Whether or not we believe Floyd would have neutralized the combination machine that has been the pacman, Floyd was too scared to find out. Floyd could have been given the edge in every category, but he didn't think he could win, and the boxing fans could just suffer.
At his highest level, the most gifted froze like a 2nd grader at the edge of the local pool high dive. "No thanks, mister, I'm coming back down the ladder. Not because I'm scared of the dive, no sir. It's just that I've pooped my pants."
Mayweather's fear of Manny is phobic, and that means it is irrational as an elephant being scared of a mouse. Phobia's aren't rational, and we should let go of the fight and enjoy Pretty Boy Floyd's remaining excellence, even if he didn't overcome all of his personal demons. Hell, does anyone?

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Another winner. You speak of style making fights and talk about movement in relationship to a one dimensional attack in this dead horse fight but I think you must have pasted that from some yahoo answers page.

Marquez cant fight off the back foot and he has so far countered him to shit in three controversial fights landing right hands almost at will and he's slow compared to Mayweather with less options with that hand.

Add to that Floyds ability to fight and land meaningful punches while in reverse and Manny is in trouble. That is at a time when the fight made sense/cents. Its pretty much irrelevant now and as beanflicker says perhaps one of the biggest blunders in history.

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Originally Posted by christianshreve

For the rest of his life Floyd will have to deal with having caught the same fear factor virus that Roy Jones dealt with against Dariusz Michalczewski--he found a guy who spooked him and said no. Manny scared him into being unavailable. Whether or not we believe Floyd would have neutralized the combination machine that has been the pacman, Floyd was too scared to find out. Floyd could have been given the edge in every category, but he didn't think he could win, and the boxing fans could just suffer.
At his highest level, the most gifted froze like a 2nd grader at the edge of the local pool high dive. "No thanks, mister, I'm coming back down the ladder. Not because I'm scared of the dive, no sir. It's just that I've pooped my pants."
Mayweather's fear of Manny is phobic, and that means it is irrational as an elephant being scared of a mouse. Phobia's aren't rational, and we should let go of the fight and enjoy Pretty Boy Floyd's remaining excellence, even if he didn't overcome all of his personal demons. Hell, does anyone?

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Nah. Takes two to tango.

Roy jones was the kingpin and Dariusz Michalczewski should have got his ass out of germany and took the fight with roy in america where he would have got paid twice as much!

Floyd is the same kingpin of era. Its not his fault that manny and arum cant agree a price for this fight to happen.. Theres so much behind the scenes we dont know about but its just easier to call floyd scared or not maximising his potential.

Agreed. ^ That's one thing that really baffles me. Roy was the undisputed #1 in the division, the #1 p4p in boxing. Who was Dariusz outside of Germany? If you want to be the best, you have to come fight the best. It made no sense for Roy to go over to Germany and risk getting robbed.

Michalczewski was the lineal champ, the true champ, so Roy should have travelled to him. Why should the champ risk getting robbed in America?

No one can can doubt Floyd's ability to counter going forward or back.
If he hadn't hid from Manny he would be in Pernell Whitaker's class historically as well as physically.
Mayweather may not swing the counter right hard, but that straight pop makes everyone have to reset after he lands it.
As to Roy Jones, it does appear to have become common knowledge that Jones, with all his startling gifts, would have indeed moved to the moon rather than face Dariusz Michalczewski.
Can you imagine the Packers not showing up to the stadium one Sunday so they could avoid the Bears?
Unlikely, but some of our most gifted fist fighters think this a viable operating procedure.

I'm not opposed to disagreement on any point, and I'm not pasting Yahoo pages. This thread contains educated posters with compelling points. Forums like this enable people to enhance understanding.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Michalczewski was the lineal champ, the true champ, so Roy should have travelled to him. Why should the champ risk getting robbed in America?

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Was Mariusz ranked higher than RJJ? The fighter makes the belt, not the other way around.

Roy was the undisputed #1 p4p. Roy was the big name of the two(figuratively, not literally obviously). As such, people should be coming for you, not the other way around.

I'm a Tiger fan for sure, but he would have gotten obliterated by Roy Jones of the late 90s/early 2000s.

My point had nothing to do with the triangle theory in boxing. I merely asked what is the big deal if one loses to the other? No one can say "he's exposed as a phony" that's ridiculous and because of fans like that most boxers are so damn hesitant to take on challenges.

If one loses to the other, they'll still be a first ballot hall of famer. They'll still be considered one of the best fighters in this era. So really it will just be a point of bragging rights between the two and not the cataclysmal ending of careers and legacy that most people believed it to be.

Cotto vs Mayweather. Cotto lost absolutely nothing losing in that fight. He gained respect and adulation if anything. Did Oscar lose anything losing to Pacquiao? In my opinion he did not. So why is there so much built up, feigned or otherwise stake for the winner and loser of this 'super fight'?

I would personally applaude them both for fighting each other the same way I respect Carl Froch and Andre ward for fighting everyone under the sun in their division.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Michalczewski was the lineal champ, the true champ, so Roy should have travelled to him. Why should the champ risk getting robbed in America?

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Was Mariusz ranked higher than RJJ? The fighter makes the belt, not the other way around.

Roy was the undisputed #1 p4p. Roy was the big name of the two(figuratively, not literally obviously). As such, people should be coming for you, not the other way around.

I'm a Tiger fan for sure, but he would have gotten obliterated by Roy Jones of the late 90s/early 2000s.

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Michalczewski was THE champ. You can't get higher ranked than that. Yes fighters make the belt, and once you've established yourself as the legit no.1 belts are utterly meaningless.

I agree Roy was the better fighter, I agree Roy would have won, and I agree Roy was the mythical P4P best in the world.

However, he wasn't the true lightheavy champ. You can't just ignore an already established champion, becuase you're not willing to travel, and then claim to be the king because you pick up a couple of his leftover belts.

As the challenger the onus really was on Roy to make the fight not Michalczewski.

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Originally Posted by DavilaJones

Did Oscar lose anything losing to Pacquiao? In my opinion he did not.

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Personally I think that was one of the most embarrassing big-fight losses I've ever seen. De La Hoya, a 154lber, got absolutey smashed by a guy who was fighting at 130 two fights before that.

The only saving grace for DLH was the excuses that he was washed up and probably weight drained.

I agree with both of you. There is a certain point a fighter can reach that makes them untouchable no matter what occurs in the late stages of a career, in terms of hall of fame consideration. At the highest peaks (say top 100 of a century) one almost gets nit-picky over the differences between them.
On the other point, I think Roy would have out-slicked Dariusz, but Jones didn't. It wasn't a promotional issue, as the traveling Roy Jones show went on for years without a competitive fight. Part of this has to be attributed to his Michael Jordan-esque athletic ability. The other, he hid from his senior challenge for years at light-heavy, until even his most ardent fans began to see him waving his belts around as disingenuous.

Well darius must be the true p4p champ then. Roy didnt have time to weight for darius he was to busy winning heavyweight championships..was that less of a risk?

Darius was to busy trying to be next rocky marciano while roy was making history in multi weight divisons.

Roy already got the worst decision in history at the olympics you cant blame him for not wanting to travel when the most money can be made in america.

And lets not talk common opponents between these two as im sure its apparent who had the harder road..!

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by DavilaJones

Did Oscar lose anything losing to Pacquiao? In my opinion he did not.

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Personally I think that was one of the most embarrassing big-fight losses I've ever seen. De La Hoya, a 154lber, got absolutey smashed by a guy who was fighting at 130 two fights before that.

The only saving grace for DLH was the excuses that he was washed up and probably weight drained.

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I agree, and its obvious he was weight drained.
Freddie roach said it many times he instantly saw what was happening.

Though Roy Jones won a title at Heavyweight, he never won the championship. Lennox would have remembered.
Dariusz may never have been p4p champ, but he was good enough for Roy to forfeit the legitimacy of the position by way of fear factor.
Roy did get the raw end of the deal in the gold medal match in Korea, but hopefully the Val Barker cup was a suitable substitute as best of the best. In either case it does not excuse him from performing his duty as a professional. The location is a consideration, but probably not the senior one, as Jones was terrified of Dariusz. A slow moving Ruiz would not have beaten Roy had he weighed 300 pounds.
By the way, do any of you remember way back to the 84 Olympics, when the Korean's felt slighted by what they viewed as hometown decisions against their athletes. They said, after a fashion, the next time is on our turf. Wait until we get you over there.
They did it, too, didn't they?

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Michalczewski was THE champ. You can't get higher ranked than that. Yes fighters make the belt, and once you've established yourself as the legit no.1 belts are utterly meaningless.

I agree Roy was the better fighter, I agree Roy would have won, and I agree Roy was the mythical P4P best in the world.

However, he wasn't the true lightheavy champ. You can't just ignore an already established champion, becuase you're not willing to travel, and then claim to be the king because you pick up a couple of his leftover belts.

As the challenger the onus really was on Roy to make the fight not Michalczewski.

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I can appreciate the fact that he was the linear champ, but what do belts really mean in boxing compared to public perception? Belts are treated like the tin they are for the most part; fighters willingly relinquish them, fighters are stripped for rediculous reasons, fighters have to fight illegitimate mandatories, ect ect. Favourable public perception isn't as easily attained.

It's all well and good that Dariusz had the linear title, but what good is a title if no one recognized him for it? Everyone looked at Roy Jones as the #1 LHW in the world for all those years. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just stating the facts. And who really needed that fight more? Roy Jones will go down as an all-time great. A belt holder in multiple weight divisions. Dariusz is a guy who, outside of Germany and Poland, only big boxing nuts really know or care about.

My point is that even though Mariusz had the title, he standed to gain a lot more with a win over Roy Jones than vice versa. And for that reason, he should have sucked it up and came over for his shot at greatness. Roy Jones didn't need him on his resume.

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Originally Posted by imp

Well darius must be the true p4p champ then. Roy didnt have time to weight for darius he was to busy winning heavyweight championships..was that less of a risk?

Darius was to busy trying to be next rocky marciano while roy was making history in multi weight divisons.

Roy already got the worst decision in history at the olympics you cant blame him for not wanting to travel when the most money can be made in america.

And lets not talk common opponents between these two as im sure its apparent who had the harder road..!

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Roy couldn't wait for him? Michalczewski was lineal champ from 97 to 2003, Roy was a lightheavy from 97 to 2003 before facing Ruiz. And that heavyweight title is meaningless too, Lewis was the lineal champ, Ruiz just had a belt Lewis discarded.

P4P is decided by peoples opinion. There are no certainties or facts involved. You can be regarded the best fighter in the world and not even be a legit champion.

And having a bad decision go against you doesn't mean you get a free pass from ever leaving home again. Millions of fighters have been "robbed."

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Originally Posted by christianshreve

location is a consideration, but probably not the senior one, as Jones was terrified of Dariusz.

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I don't know why you'd jump to that conclusion. I don't see how it's ducking, as Roy was completely willing to fight the guy. It'd be different if he wasn't acknowledging Dariusz existed, or if he used the old "he needs to fight (so and so) before he deserves a shot at me", ect ect.

We're not talking about a guy who refused to fight Dariusz. They couldn't agree to terms, which in the end is Dariusz' loss.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Michalczewski was THE champ. You can't get higher ranked than that. Yes fighters make the belt, and once you've established yourself as the legit no.1 belts are utterly meaningless.

I agree Roy was the better fighter, I agree Roy would have won, and I agree Roy was the mythical P4P best in the world.

However, he wasn't the true lightheavy champ. You can't just ignore an already established champion, becuase you're not willing to travel, and then claim to be the king because you pick up a couple of his leftover belts.

As the challenger the onus really was on Roy to make the fight not Michalczewski.

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I can appreciate the fact that he was the linear champ, but what do belts really mean in boxing compared to public perception? Belts are treated like the tin they are for the most part; fighters willingly relinquish them, fighters are stripped for rediculous reasons, fighters have to fight illegitimate mandatories, ect ect. Favourable public perception isn't as easily attained.

It's all well and good that Dariusz had the linear title, but what good is a title if no one recognized him for it? Everyone looked at Roy Jones as the #1 LHW in the world for all those years. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just stating the facts. And who really needed that fight more? Roy Jones will go down as an all-time great. A belt holder in multiple weight divisions. Dariusz is a guy who, outside of Germany and Poland, only big boxing nuts really know or care about.

My point is that even though Mariusz had the title, he standed to gain a lot more with a win over Roy Jones than vice versa. And for that reason, he should have sucked it up and came over for his shot at greatness. Roy Jones didn't need him on his resume.

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I agree with you.

But this is a forum for boxing nerds (;D). Where else is this shit gonna get discussed

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by imp

Well darius must be the true p4p champ then. Roy didnt have time to weight for darius he was to busy winning heavyweight championships..was that less of a risk?

Darius was to busy trying to be next rocky marciano while roy was making history in multi weight divisons.

Roy already got the worst decision in history at the olympics you cant blame him for not wanting to travel when the most money can be made in america.

And lets not talk common opponents between these two as im sure its apparent who had the harder road..!

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Roy couldn't wait for him? Michalczewski was lineal champ from 97 to 2003, Roy was a lightheavy from 97 to 2003 before facing Ruiz. And that heavyweight title is meaningless too, Lewis was the lineal champ, Ruiz just had a belt Lewis discarded.

P4P is decided by peoples opinion. There are no certainties or facts involved. You can be regarded the best fighter in the world and not even be a legit champion.

And having a bad decision go against you doesn't mean you get a free pass from ever leaving home again. Millions of fighters have been "robbed."

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Fenster,

Moving up to heavyweight was still a great achievement regardless of the belt.

You already said you think roy was the better fighter and the mythical p4p best..why is there a need to make out roy ducked or feared darius?..we know the big money is in the states.

How is this relevant to marquez saying that floyd would beat pac.

Lineal titles honestly don't mean that much ... especially when the line of succession is usually interrupted.

Look at the linear heavyweight title and see how many breaks, holes and vacancies there are. Spinks vacated his linear title as LHW champ when he moved up to HW ... Virgil Hill never beat Spinks to become the lineal champion, he won a vacant title.

The linear title is the same as the WBA, WBC etc. its just more glorified for some kind of historical reason that really isn't even there.

Roy was the man at LHW and carried nearly every belt and title at that division except for the linear title.

I don't think that either Dariusz or Roy avoided each other ... neither seemed to want to fight away from their home countries hence the potential unification bout between them never materialized.

When Shannon Briggs was the lineal champion was he really the best heavyweight in the world? How about Michael Moorer?

Guess I wandered off topic.
Jones is a comparison point for Mayweather, to an extent, as he hid from his chief challenge for years.
An old announcer used to say that certain fighters had "the style to give others all they could handle." When referring to a proposed bout between Whitaker and Chavez, the man said "Whitaker has the style, and the discipline within the style, to give Chavez's type of fighter all he could handle."
Mayweather matches up favorably to Manny in the way Pernell matched up with Chavez.
This is all a moot point. Floyd didn't think he could win, and wasn't willing to try. So went 4 years.
Floyd is an absolute master, and I would have given him the nod 7 times out of 10 over the Filipino phenom , but the will to win exceeds the skill to win, and Floyd didn't accept Manny's challenge.
It seems probable that he wouldn't have faced Chavez, had he been Whitaker.
It seems inevitable that he will hide at 154 from Trout and Canelo.
Pity that. But he was a legitimate p4p champ for years on end and has the Hall-of-fame in the bag twice over.
I just wish he realized that he could have lost to Pacquiao in 11 seconds of the first round and been better off than this stand has placed him. Even people who don't follow boxing, like comedian Daniel Tosh, spout off about what they consider humiliating cowardice by Floyd Mayweather jr. No one who gives their best in the ring deserves to be called a coward, but Mayweather's "no mas" cry is more blatant than Duran's was in his second Leonard fight, because at least Roberto was wiling to get in the ring and try for a few rounds.
Whatever comes out of his mouth now about not really being terrified of "Pacman" all these long years strikes a false chord and no longer resembles analytical commentary.

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Originally Posted by imp

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by imp

Well darius must be the true p4p champ then. Roy didnt have time to weight for darius he was to busy winning heavyweight championships..was that less of a risk?

Darius was to busy trying to be next rocky marciano while roy was making history in multi weight divisons.

Roy already got the worst decision in history at the olympics you cant blame him for not wanting to travel when the most money can be made in america.

And lets not talk common opponents between these two as im sure its apparent who had the harder road..!

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Roy couldn't wait for him? Michalczewski was lineal champ from 97 to 2003, Roy was a lightheavy from 97 to 2003 before facing Ruiz. And that heavyweight title is meaningless too, Lewis was the lineal champ, Ruiz just had a belt Lewis discarded.

P4P is decided by peoples opinion. There are no certainties or facts involved. You can be regarded the best fighter in the world and not even be a legit champion.

And having a bad decision go against you doesn't mean you get a free pass from ever leaving home again. Millions of fighters have been "robbed."

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Fenster,

Moving up to heavyweight was still a great achievement regardless of the belt.

You already said you think roy was the better fighter and the mythical p4p best..why is there a need to make out roy ducked or feared darius?..we know the big money is in the states.

How is this relevant to marquez saying that floyd would beat pac.

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Roy beating Ruiz was a good achivement I wouldn't call it great.

I never even came close to saying Roy ducked Darius. I was pointing out who the correct champion was, therefore to simply dismiss the lesser known guy based in Germany as the villain for not travelling is bogus. That's all.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by imp

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by imp

Well darius must be the true p4p champ then. Roy didnt have time to weight for darius he was to busy winning heavyweight championships..was that less of a risk?

Darius was to busy trying to be next rocky marciano while roy was making history in multi weight divisons.

Roy already got the worst decision in history at the olympics you cant blame him for not wanting to travel when the most money can be made in america.

And lets not talk common opponents between these two as im sure its apparent who had the harder road..!

---

Roy couldn't wait for him? Michalczewski was lineal champ from 97 to 2003, Roy was a lightheavy from 97 to 2003 before facing Ruiz. And that heavyweight title is meaningless too, Lewis was the lineal champ, Ruiz just had a belt Lewis discarded.

P4P is decided by peoples opinion. There are no certainties or facts involved. You can be regarded the best fighter in the world and not even be a legit champion.

And having a bad decision go against you doesn't mean you get a free pass from ever leaving home again. Millions of fighters have been "robbed."

---

Fenster,

Moving up to heavyweight was still a great achievement regardless of the belt.

You already said you think roy was the better fighter and the mythical p4p best..why is there a need to make out roy ducked or feared darius?..we know the big money is in the states.

How is this relevant to marquez saying that floyd would beat pac.

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Roy beating Ruiz was a good achivement I wouldn't call it great.

I never even came close to saying Roy ducked Darius. I was pointing out who the correct champion was, therefore to simply dismiss the lesser known guy based in Germany as the villain for not travelling is bogus. That's all.

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Roy had about 8 titles when Dariusz had the lineal title and the WBO strap

8>2

Virgil Hill never beat Spinks for the lineal title, hence the chain of succession was broken and restarted with Hill winning that title in an elimination bout. Dariusz beat Hill for the linear title by decision. Roy then beat Hill in a more convincing, spectacular fashion via KO.

Roy Jones Jr. was the man at LHW.

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Originally Posted by christianshreve

Guess I wandered off topic.
Jones is a comparison point for Mayweather, to an extent, as he hid from his chief challenge for years.
An old announcer used to say that certain fighters had "the style to give others all they could handle." When referring to a proposed bout between Whitaker and Chavez, the man said "Whitaker has the style, and the discipline within the style, to give Chavez's type of fighter all he could handle."
Mayweather matches up favorably to Manny in the way Pernell matched up with Chavez.
This is all a moot point. Floyd didn't think he could win, and wasn't willing to try. So went 4 years.
Floyd is an absolute master, and I would have given him the nod 7 times out of 10 over the Filipino phenom , but the will to win exceeds the skill to win, and Floyd didn't accept Manny's challenge.
It seems probable that he wouldn't have faced Chavez, had he been Whitaker.
It seems inevitable that he will hide at 154 from Trout and Canelo.
Pity that. But he was a legitimate p4p champ for years on end and has the Hall-of-fame in the bag twice over.
I just wish he realized that he could have lost to Pacquiao in 11 seconds of the first round and been better off than this stand has placed him. Even people who don't follow boxing, like comedian Daniel Tosh, spout off about what they consider humiliating cowardice by Floyd Mayweather jr. No one who gives their best in the ring deserves to be called a coward, but Mayweather's "no mas" cry is more blatant than Duran's was in his second Leonard fight, because at least Roberto was wiling to get in the ring and try for a few rounds.
Whatever comes out of his mouth now about not really being terrified of "Pacman" all these long years strikes a false chord and no longer resembles analytical commentary.

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Floyd has not fought a top rank fighter since leaving bob arum.

The same excuse you used has already been said about cotto, margarito and probably clottey! Lol

It really is getting tired now.

And here it comes, now its the case that floyd is going to duck canelo and trout?

Its all one way traffic. Floyd has just been sitting terrified in the corner all these years from all these fighters just because of what freddie roach and manny says.

Floyd should have done what duran did and just give it a go anyway and when he gets ko after 11 seconds he would still have been better of for it now??!

Crazy.

Are we to believe floyd is the same that he was 4 years ago and would have been just as ineffective against manny because manny might have been at his peak against non couter punchers?!

Then again, lets just listen to what tosh daniel tosh has to say...jeez.

The fact a pro fighter can take TWO years off and continue his dominance shows you how elite he is from every other specimen.

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Originally Posted by TysonBomb

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by imp

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by imp

Well darius must be the true p4p champ then. Roy didnt have time to weight for darius he was to busy winning heavyweight championships..was that less of a risk?

Darius was to busy trying to be next rocky marciano while roy was making history in multi weight divisons.

Roy already got the worst decision in history at the olympics you cant blame him for not wanting to travel when the most money can be made in america.

And lets not talk common opponents between these two as im sure its apparent who had the harder road..!

---

Roy couldn't wait for him? Michalczewski was lineal champ from 97 to 2003, Roy was a lightheavy from 97 to 2003 before facing Ruiz. And that heavyweight title is meaningless too, Lewis was the lineal champ, Ruiz just had a belt Lewis discarded.

P4P is decided by peoples opinion. There are no certainties or facts involved. You can be regarded the best fighter in the world and not even be a legit champion.

And having a bad decision go against you doesn't mean you get a free pass from ever leaving home again. Millions of fighters have been "robbed."

---

Fenster,

Moving up to heavyweight was still a great achievement regardless of the belt.

You already said you think roy was the better fighter and the mythical p4p best..why is there a need to make out roy ducked or feared darius?..we know the big money is in the states.

How is this relevant to marquez saying that floyd would beat pac.

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Roy beating Ruiz was a good achivement I wouldn't call it great.

I never even came close to saying Roy ducked Darius. I was pointing out who the correct champion was, therefore to simply dismiss the lesser known guy based in Germany as the villain for not travelling is bogus. That's all.

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Roy had about 8 titles when Dariusz had the lineal title and the WBO strap

8>2

Virgil Hill never beat Spinks for the lineal title, hence the chain of succession was broken and restarted with Hill winning that title in an elimination bout. Dariusz beat Hill for the linear title by decision. Roy then beat Hill in a more convincing, spectacular fashion via KO.

Roy Jones Jr. was the man at LHW.

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Roy had belts that Michalczewski had already won and discarded or been stripped of through politics. He didn't lose them in the ring.

When a lineage is broken it only gets restarted when the universally recognised no.1 and 2 meet.

Hill (WBA champ) and Maske (IBF) unified to establish THE man at 175 (they were recognised as the top two in the division). The WBC champion was Fabrice Tiozzo who Hill had already beat. Roy hadn't even fought in the division at this point.

Hill beat Maske to become THE man. He then lost to Michalczewski who was stripped/chucked the WBA and IBF titles. The titles were now utterly irrelevant because a CLEAR champion was established.

A hundred alaphbet titles don't mean shit compared with lineage. It's the only pure way of having a true champion, regardless of whether or not people think he's the best in the division.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by imp

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by imp

Well darius must be the true p4p champ then. Roy didnt have time to weight for darius he was to busy winning heavyweight championships..was that less of a risk?

Darius was to busy trying to be next rocky marciano while roy was making history in multi weight divisons.

Roy already got the worst decision in history at the olympics you cant blame him for not wanting to travel when the most money can be made in america.

And lets not talk common opponents between these two as im sure its apparent who had the harder road..!

---

Roy couldn't wait for him? Michalczewski was lineal champ from 97 to 2003, Roy was a lightheavy from 97 to 2003 before facing Ruiz. And that heavyweight title is meaningless too, Lewis was the lineal champ, Ruiz just had a belt Lewis discarded.

P4P is decided by peoples opinion. There are no certainties or facts involved. You can be regarded the best fighter in the world and not even be a legit champion.

And having a bad decision go against you doesn't mean you get a free pass from ever leaving home again. Millions of fighters have been "robbed."

---

Fenster,

Moving up to heavyweight was still a great achievement regardless of the belt.

You already said you think roy was the better fighter and the mythical p4p best..why is there a need to make out roy ducked or feared darius?..we know the big money is in the states.

How is this relevant to marquez saying that floyd would beat pac.

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Roy beating Ruiz was a good achivement I wouldn't call it great.

I never even came close to saying Roy ducked Darius. I was pointing out who the correct champion was, therefore to simply dismiss the lesser known guy based in Germany as the villain for not travelling is bogus. That's all.

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Ok cool.

Question.. Do you think Darius should have pulled out all the stops to get the fight with Roy jones junior whether in germany or america?

Would darius have been as known around the world as a Roy jones would have?

Who would have been the bigger draw?

Who in the public eye would have and got the bigger piece of the pie?

If the answer is Roy then it should be 60-40 all the way, but i believe darius wanted to protect his O and strive to be the german marciano.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by TysonBomb

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by imp

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by imp

Well darius must be the true p4p champ then. Roy didnt have time to weight for darius he was to busy winning heavyweight championships..was that less of a risk?

Darius was to busy trying to be next rocky marciano while roy was making history in multi weight divisons.

Roy already got the worst decision in history at the olympics you cant blame him for not wanting to travel when the most money can be made in america.

And lets not talk common opponents between these two as im sure its apparent who had the harder road..!

---

Roy couldn't wait for him? Michalczewski was lineal champ from 97 to 2003, Roy was a lightheavy from 97 to 2003 before facing Ruiz. And that heavyweight title is meaningless too, Lewis was the lineal champ, Ruiz just had a belt Lewis discarded.

P4P is decided by peoples opinion. There are no certainties or facts involved. You can be regarded the best fighter in the world and not even be a legit champion.

And having a bad decision go against you doesn't mean you get a free pass from ever leaving home again. Millions of fighters have been "robbed."

---

Fenster,

Moving up to heavyweight was still a great achievement regardless of the belt.

You already said you think roy was the better fighter and the mythical p4p best..why is there a need to make out roy ducked or feared darius?..we know the big money is in the states.

How is this relevant to marquez saying that floyd would beat pac.

---

Roy beating Ruiz was a good achivement I wouldn't call it great.

I never even came close to saying Roy ducked Darius. I was pointing out who the correct champion was, therefore to simply dismiss the lesser known guy based in Germany as the villain for not travelling is bogus. That's all.

---

Roy had about 8 titles when Dariusz had the lineal title and the WBO strap

8>2

Virgil Hill never beat Spinks for the lineal title, hence the chain of succession was broken and restarted with Hill winning that title in an elimination bout. Dariusz beat Hill for the linear title by decision. Roy then beat Hill in a more convincing, spectacular fashion via KO.

Roy Jones Jr. was the man at LHW.

---

Roy had belts that Michalczewski had already won and discarded or been stripped of through politics. He didn't lose them in the ring.

When a lineage is broken it only gets restarted when the universally recognised no.1 and 2 meet.

Hill (WBA champ) and Maske (IBF) unified to establish THE man at 175 (they were recognised as the top two in the division). The WBC champion was Fabrice Tiozzo who Hill had already beat. Roy hadn't even fought in the division at this point.

Hill beat Maske to become THE man. He then lost to Michalczewski who was stripped/chucked the WBA and IBF titles. The titles were now utterly irrelevant because a CLEAR champion was established.

A hundred alaphbet titles don't mean shit compared with lineage. It's the only pure way of having a true champion, regardless of whether or not people think he's the best in the division.

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The lineal title is really no different from these "alphabet" titles IMO

Especially when its not really even lineal ... the line of succession had already been broken.

Having the most titles at a certain weight class makes you "the champ" not just having the lineal title, and Roy had more of them than Dariusz. Dariusz also never had the WBC title and he never held them all at once, despite whatever politics there were at the time.

This is how I rank it:

Undisputed champion - having all of the major titles and belts in a division.
Unified champion - having multiple titles and belts in a division.
Titlist - having a title. It would be an "ABC title" (major world title such as WBA, WBC, IBF or WBO of course) as you put it or the linear title.

All of them fall under the "world champion" category.

Lets not forget that there are even versions of the lineal title ... Roy was the champion for The Ring magazine which is also a lineal title.

So who was the true champion from 2002 - 2003? RJJ who had won "the Ring" lineal championship in the same fashion that Michalczewski did, along with 7 other titles ... or Michalczewski who held the "lineal title" and the WBO title??

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Originally Posted by Fenster

I agree with you.

But this is a forum for boxing nerds (;D). Where else is this shit gonna get discussed

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Truth be told, up until you told me, I had no idea he was the linear champ all that time ;D I had to look it up and fact check it haha.