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Re: I think Marciano would eventually find Ali over 15 rounds
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Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
greynotsoold
In 1966 Ali fought George Chuvalo and won a unanimous decision. Despite the scores he had a lot of trouble with Chuvalo, who has maintained since that he would have won had the judges scored body punches (he also said the saying you were in a close fight with Ali is like spitting on the Pope; sacrilegious.) At the time many thought that Chuvalo had drawn the blueprint for how to beat Ali.
If a prime Ali had a hard night with George Chuvalo, Marciano would have taken him to hell.
The only thing Chuvalo did with any consistency to Ali was hit him with kidney punches in the clinch (which I heard made Ali piss blood for a week).
I love George and he certainly was a bruiser and caused Ali a lot of pain and discomfort, I don't think he came close to beating Ali, and if people at the time thought he had drawn the blueprint to beat Ali, I think that sentiment was probably based moreso in the public's distaste for Ali at the time than it was in any real logic.
Chuvalo had probably the best chin in HW history too IMO
The thought was that the way to beat Ali was with pressure, staying on top of him and punching to the body. Ali certainly took a lot of body punches in many fights: He could pull his head away very quickly but not his body. And in close he didn't keep his elbows in tight to protect his ribs (until Zaire), preferring to grab his opponent around the head and pull them down.
Ali was far far from a perfect fighter. Once Marciano got close ( and he would, because he'd make Ali move into him to land his jab) Ali would have problems with his activity and those punches would slow him down.
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Ali prime weight:- 210-220?
Marciano prime weight:-183-189?
Ali reach:- 80inches
Marciano reach:- 68inches
Ali height:- 6,3?
Marciano height:- 5,10?
Speed:- ali
Footwork:- ali
Handspeed:- ali
Defense:- ali
Chin:- ali
Jab:- ali
Power:- marciano?
Stamina:- both?
If these two fought prime for prime ten times..on 7 occasions the fight would be stopped on a tko for ali for cutting rockys face to shreds and the other two a decision or ko for the Goat. Perhaps in the last fight marciano could get a KO? lets just give it to him.
Marciano will always be a legend in the game with his heart and courage and undefeated record.
But the frustation of alis movement, speed and accurate shots will be way to much for the brave and tough crusierweight.
Ps:- frazier would have beat marciano too.
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Re: I think Marciano would eventually find Ali over 15 rounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
greynotsoold
Ali was far far from a perfect fighter. Once Marciano got close ( and he would, because he'd make Ali move into him to land his jab) Ali would have problems with his activity and those punches would slow him down.
That could be true. I wouldn't count Marciano out of that one.
Actually I give Marciano a much better chance of beating Ali than I would of him beating the big bombers who came after him (Liston, Foreman, ect).
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Re: I think Marciano would eventually find Ali over 15 rounds
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Originally Posted by
brocktonblockbust
Ali had problems with just about everybody, same like Holmes. Ali was rocked by just about every opponent--Doug Jones won the fight, Cooper and another guy floored him, Chuck Wepner floored ahim and went 15 rounds, Chuvalo beat him on pionts, Ken Norton won all 3 fights, Bob Foster cut him, Frazier was wining the 3rd fight if his eyes didnt close, Ali would get waxed in a rematch with Foreman who could probably beat Ali just using his jab and conserving his energy better than Zaire, an old Patterson was "the toughest fight I ever had" said Ali himself. Frazier really showed in the first fight that Ali was only great for his Iron Chin and not much else as Ali's fucking head in that fight should have come off his shoulders on dozens of occasions due to monster left hooks that should have decapitated him. Ali proved he could take any punch from anybody and still fight on. Just that he didnt do too much fightin after Frazier took his head off in the mid to late rounds.
Ali struggled with everybody. Name a fight Ali didnt have a scare or get hurt bad.
Marciano would destroy Ali.
Looking at this analysis Ali is the worst Heavyweight champion of all time and probably wouldn't have beaten Marvin Hart! We should all stop talking about Ali and condemn his legacy to the dustbin of time and erase his memory from boxing altogether? I was unaware that so many people over the last 50 years have got it all wrong about Ali, i better go read a book about boxing because i have no idea now.
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Re: I think Marciano would eventually find Ali over 15 rounds
yes he would, he would eventually find Ali's fists to his face......repeatedly
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Re: I think Marciano would eventually find Ali over 15 rounds
I think brockton in many ways has made a compelling case. At least its not out of the reach of possibility.
Speaking of reach, Marciano was outreached his entire career. Ricky Hatton is about an inch short of his reach. The chance does exist that Marciano lands the perfect shot regardless of how good Ali's chin is.
Marciano's problem would be getting Ali to walk into one.
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Re: I think Marciano would eventually find Ali over 15 rounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
THE THIRD MAN
Quote:
Originally Posted by
brocktonblockbust
Ali had problems with just about everybody, same like Holmes. Ali was rocked by just about every opponent--Doug Jones won the fight, Cooper and another guy floored him, Chuck Wepner floored ahim and went 15 rounds, Chuvalo beat him on pionts, Ken Norton won all 3 fights, Bob Foster cut him, Frazier was wining the 3rd fight if his eyes didnt close, Ali would get waxed in a rematch with Foreman who could probably beat Ali just using his jab and conserving his energy better than Zaire, an old Patterson was "the toughest fight I ever had" said Ali himself. Frazier really showed in the first fight that Ali was only great for his Iron Chin and not much else as Ali's fucking head in that fight should have come off his shoulders on dozens of occasions due to monster left hooks that should have decapitated him. Ali proved he could take any punch from anybody and still fight on. Just that he didnt do too much fightin after Frazier took his head off in the mid to late rounds.
Ali struggled with everybody. Name a fight Ali didnt have a scare or get hurt bad.
Marciano would destroy Ali.
Looking at this analysis Ali is the worst Heavyweight champion of all time and probably wouldn't have beaten Marvin Hart! We should all stop talking about Ali and condemn his legacy to the dustbin of time and erase his memory from boxing altogether? I was unaware that so many people over the last 50 years have got it all wrong about Ali, i better go read a book about boxing because i have no idea now.
I watched Ali/Clay almost from his 1st fight as a Pro, in Ali's Prime which would have to have been before the 3 1/2 year lay off for draft evasion he was the most physically gifted HW who ever lived. He had a rare combination of ring smarts, skill, speed, power, endurance, and a defense that was better then Mayweather's. In short, in Ali's Championship "prime", Marciano and Frazier wouldn't have stood a chance, and neither would few other Heavyweights in the History of boxing.
Perhaps some of you base your opinions on the version of Ali after the 3 1/2 year lay off, and/or the one who lost to Frazier in their first fight, but before being stripped of his title Ali was unbeatable.
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Re: I think Marciano would eventually find Ali over 15 rounds
BTW, Brockton, your Ali/Marciano threads are worse then Fenster's recycling of Naz. :-\
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Re: I think Marciano would eventually find Ali over 15 rounds
I made a topic ages ago, comparing George Chuvalo to Rocky Marciano. I think Rocky Marciano/Muhammad Ali fight would resemble George Chuvalo/Muhammad Ali. I don't think Rocky Marciano gets destroyed like so many people think. But i think he loses but i also think he would give Muhammad Ali a serious run for his money. George Chuvalo gave Muhammad Ali fits especially in there 2nd fight.
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Re: I think Marciano would eventually find Ali over 15 rounds
I agree Cassius Clay was perhaps unbeatable. Watching those early fights I am astounded at the footwork and hand speed and sharp punching power.
Not sure if Marciano could catch Cassius Clay. But Clay would have to come to Rocky. THAT would be the time for Rocky to get so low Ali would have to hit him on the back of the head. I say Rocky comes up from the floor with some devastating uppercuts and body shots.
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Re: I think Marciano would eventually find Ali over 15 rounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
brocktonblockbust
I agree Cassius Clay was perhaps unbeatable. Watching those early fights I am astounded at the footwork and hand speed and sharp punching power.
Not sure if Marciano could catch Cassius Clay. But Clay would have to come to Rocky. THAT would be the time for Rocky to get so low Ali would have to hit him on the back of the head. I say Rocky comes up from the floor with some devastating uppercuts and body shots.
And Clay comes in with fast jabs, right hands and left hooks. I was surprised at how aggressive he was against Liston in the first round in their first fight.
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Re: I think Marciano would eventually find Ali over 15 rounds
But Ali was far from unbeatable- even early on, as Clay. Keep in mind that when he came up, nobody was in awe of him, nobody was calling him the greatest (except himself), in fact, the consensus was that he was very fast and basically unschooled. Keep in mind... guys like Ray Arcel and Eddie Futch did not, to their dying day, consider Ali the best heavyweight of all time. They both thought Joe Louis would beat him, and Arcel thought Dempsey would as well. Ali had great reflexes, was always in tremendous shape, and had an incredible will to win. Those attributes covered up a lot of flaws.
Basic things...Every time he jabbed, his right hand flared out. A slightly better than good Kenny Norton exploited that by jabbing when Ali jabbed. He dropped his hands to punch, so Frazier stayed low and hooked every time Ali threw an uppercut. Charley Goldman was every bit as astute and observant and boxing smart as Eddie Futch. They'd surround Ali's jab and make him either move into Marciano's right, or to his (Ali's) own right, and Ali didn't like to fight going to his right (the 2nd Liston fight and that one notwithstanding).
Marciano had greater stamina than Frazier, and he would take fewer punches than Frazier did from Ali. He'd trap Ali in enough corners and on the ropes enough to win a pretty clear cut decision.
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Re: I think Marciano would eventually find Ali over 15 rounds
Ali may not be technically brilliant but his heart, conditioning, reflex, courage, speed, stamina, mentality, mind games, confidence etc made up for it. At his best he was the best.
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Re: I think Marciano would eventually find Ali over 15 rounds
Ali before the layoff wasn't unbeatable. Let's not forget he was KOed by Henry Cooper and saved by the bell.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Ali may not be technically brilliant but his heart, conditioning, reflex, courage, speed, stamina, mentality, mind games, confidence etc made up for it. At his best he was the best.
Brilliant post!!!!
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Re: I think Marciano would eventually find Ali over 15 rounds
great posts seriously dudes. Its intriguing. All that Ali had will to win etc I think Marciano had a greater will to win. I agree with Grey that Goldman would find the way for Marciano to force Ali to his right---Marciano ALWAYS moved left---you couldnt get him to move any other way than to his left. HE forced the action remember Ali cannot effectively force any action he is basically a counter puncher and capitalizing on errors. His leadoff punches are few and far between and quite flaewed as Grey points out---Ali always drifting his right hand whilst jabbing and that shitty slapping leadoff left hook----shitty indeed---he could not get away with that with Marciano. Ali would not land a single left hook on Rocky in 15 rounds. And if he threw one he would pay dearly to the body especially.
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Re: I think Marciano would eventually find Ali over 15 rounds
Ali fought monster punchers from Foreman, Shavers and Lyle who hit harder than Rocky and if they could not dent the man, no one in the history could.
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Re: I think Marciano would eventually find Ali over 15 rounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Ali fought monster punchers from Foreman, Shavers and Lyle who hit harder than Rocky and if they could not dent the man, no one in the history could.
Henry Cooper didn't hit as hard as any of those mentioned and he certainly did dent him. Frazier did as well. The thing is, Foreman, Shavers and Lyle were all big and strong...and dumb. Just swinging those big arms until they either ko'd the other guy or exhausted themselves.
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Re: I think Marciano would eventually find Ali over 15 rounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
greynotsoold
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Ali fought monster punchers from Foreman, Shavers and Lyle who hit harder than Rocky and if they could not dent the man, no one in the history could.
Henry Cooper didn't hit as hard as any of those mentioned and he certainly did dent him. Frazier did as well. The thing is, Foreman, Shavers and Lyle were all big and strong...and dumb. Just swinging those big arms until they either ko'd the other guy or exhausted themselves.
Rocky was crude and cut easy. Ali would slice him up.
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Re: I think Marciano would eventually find Ali over 15 rounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
greynotsoold
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Ali fought monster punchers from Foreman, Shavers and Lyle who hit harder than Rocky and if they could not dent the man, no one in the history could.
Henry Cooper didn't hit as hard as any of those mentioned and he certainly did dent him. Frazier did as well. The thing is, Foreman, Shavers and Lyle were all big and strong...and dumb. Just swinging those big arms until they either ko'd the other guy or exhausted themselves.
Rocky was crude and cut easy. Ali would slice him up.
I think some forget just how good Ali was in his Prime, he won the HW title from Sonny Liston when he was just 22, the muther-fucker was amazing. I seriously doubt that Marciano would have even beaten the version of Ali who fought Frazier the 1st time. Yes Frazier, who was a full fledged HW, won the 1st fight, but he took a terrible beating. I don't see Marciano who was at best a small Crusierweight, being able to get inside against Ali like Frazier did, or being able to stand up to that kind of beating. Plus, like you say, Ali would have shredded Rocky's face.
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Re: I think Marciano would eventually find Ali over 15 rounds
Height, reach, weight and speed are all in favour of Ali. What Smokin Joe had in his favour was continuous head movement as opposed to Marciano who just kept coming at you with that crouching style, but he didn't have that awkwardness that Joe Frazier had. Marciano would've been a lot easier for Ali to hit than Smokin' Joe. Marciano was a big puncher, but if Smokin' Joe couldn't knock Ali out then i doubt Marciano would've either. He never fought above 190lbs as World Heavyweight Champion. Ali at his peak in 1966/67 was at 212lbs and was heavier,taller and faster with a long reach that would've seen him stabbing that left jab in Marciano's face all night cutting him to ribbons by the mid the rounds. Marciano only fought 7 World Title fights including 2 each with Ezzard Charles and JJW. It's only a 3 year reign at the top. One of the things that surprised Liston when they entered the ring was Ali's size, he was a big man.
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Re: I think Marciano would eventually find Ali over 15 rounds
I dont know, I have the feeling Ali wouldnt get dragged onto a battle or close scrap with a shorter stronger guy, he would be moving around flustering a forward only fighter who was out to kill him. Rocky also wouldnt be able to land those illegal wrist shots of his if Ali didnt lean down to him and kept his distance with controlling jabs better footwork and a greater reach. I think he would be dumb to lose it or having an ego moment and get dragged into war: Having the grater skills but getting ego'd out and fighting off the ropes to someone with a lower center of gravity and more power in close is an obvious no no,but you never know really.
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Re: I think Marciano would eventually find Ali over 15 rounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
THE THIRD MAN
Height, reach, weight and speed are all in favour of Ali. What Smokin Joe had in his favour was continuous head movement as opposed to Marciano who just kept coming at you with that crouching style, but he didn't have that awkwardness that Joe Frazier had. Marciano would've been a lot easier for Ali to hit than Smokin' Joe. Marciano was a big puncher, but if Smokin' Joe couldn't knock Ali out then i doubt Marciano would've either. He never fought above 190lbs as World Heavyweight Champion. Ali at his peak in 1966/67 was at 212lbs and was heavier,taller and faster with a long reach that would've seen him stabbing that left jab in Marciano's face all night cutting him to ribbons by the mid the rounds. Marciano only fought 7 World Title fights including 2 each with Ezzard Charles and JJW. It's only a 3 year reign at the top. One of the things that surprised Liston when they entered the ring was Ali's size, he was a big man.
Good point, Rocky had only 7 world title fights in his 3 year reign as HW Champion: 2 against an aging Journeyman, Joe Walcott, 2 against Ezzard Charles, another Journeyman Crusierweight, who ended his career with 25 losses on his resume, 7 by KO. And a who's who of chumps, Roland LaStarza & Don Cockell, finishing his inglorious reign against Archie Moore an ancient, blown-up light-heavyweight who knocked him on his ass.
Now let's look at some of the pugs Ali faced in title fights: Liston, Patterson, Terrell, Frazier, Norton, Foreman, et al. In re: the level of competition the 2 faced in Championship fights it's no contest, Ali's was far superior, plus Ali had an extensive amateur background, winning a Light Heavyweight gold medal in the 1960 Summer Olympics in Rome, his amateur record was over 100 wins. Marciano's amateur record is almost non-existent.
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Re: I think Marciano would eventually find Ali over 15 rounds
Would be a helluva fight, akin to the Ali-Frazier bouts.
Both are elite level heavyweights with clashing styles. Marciano being the pressure fighter and Ali a pure boxer. Ali had problems with guys who could pressure and pursue him and Marciano was cut prone ... Ali's stinging, dicing punches would definitely leave more than a few blemishes on his face.
Both have good durability, plenty of heart, stamina, intangibles etc.
I think Ali would more often than not win the boxing match, but "lose" the fight. Meaning that Ali would win on the scorecards but take more damage overall.
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Re: I think Marciano would eventually find Ali over 15 rounds
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Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
BTW, Brockton, your Ali/Marciano threads are worse then Fenster's recycling of Naz. :-\
I respectfully disagree, my good man.
Brock's Ali/Marciano threads might be like science fiction... a little science, but fiction nonetheless.
Fenster's Naz threads are a cross between fantasy and slapstick comedy.
