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Green was never stopped in his entire career and Tucker suffered his first KO defeat 10 years after the Tyson fight. They both had rock solid chins, spoiled and were slaughtered on the cards.
Wlad could spoil, and get slaughtered on the cards, but I highly doubt his definte NOT rock solid chin would have got him the distance.
Tucker fought Tyson only 2 months after winning the title. Catastrophic shortage of time needed to prepare for Tyson that! Even then he had him reeling in the first! I don't think Wlad's chin is as bad as people make out either, it had more to do with conditioning and a leaky defense IMO. Haye and Wach landed flush.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
"When Mike started fighting those big guys – and I always keep going back to the size factor. He still was a little guy. He could neutralize his size handicap with speed. His speed was so effective that the big guys were often clumsy uncoordinated who were bigger than him, until he fought those big guys who had skills and were not afraid of him.
But the big guys who were not super skillful, he would neutralize the size disadvantage with tremendous speed, footwork, head movement, and punching from short angles with all different types of punches...
To me Mike Tyson is one of the fighters I respect so much for what he did for being a small man, because he was still a small heavyweight. The biggest thing he had was his speed and intensity over a lot of big guys, when they were not prepared or well enough coordinated to deal with that.But the big guys who were not afraid of Mike and had any boxing skills, he had a problem with because Mike was a little guy…
Mike had problems with big guys! He was still a small guy that was really almost like a cruiserweight, and those big guys who were not afraid of him, all of them he struggled with… So it’s just the case where Mike was a phenomenal fighter, but with the big guys size still matters. You’re going to fight a guy (like Lennox Lewis) who’s 240-250, with skills, solid amateur background, went through 2 Olympics—no, I don’t think he could have done anything.
Evander Holyfield by the same token was just physically too small and Evander always had problems with jabs. I mean I trained him, and I had him sparring with guys who had good jabs, which is something he did have problems with."
Emanuel Steward, Hall of Fame Trainer
Nice quote - Steward was talking about Lewis though not Wlad.
"I'm one of Mike Tyson's biggest fans, he's given me so many thrills, he is the most exciting heavyweight in the last 50 years" - Emanuel Steward, Hall of Fame Trainer, 2002
When Wach hit Wlad he almost did that thing he did against Peter - run around the ring looking for places to dive on the floor.
Well, I mean besides Tyson who did Green fight that you'd expect to stop him? He only ever really fought Tyson and Berbick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
And what about James Tillis? Stopped 11 times in his career (3 times before Tyson including a 1-round beating from Tim Witherspoon).
Bonecrusher was stopped 7 times, twice before the Tyson fight including one to Larry Holmes, who hardly fits the discription of a KO artist. Then starched by Ruddock 2 years later.
And of course we can mention Razor, gave Mike fits (the first fight was a terrible early stoppage) and shortly after their fights he was DESTROYED by Lewis and taken out by The Duke of all people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by THE PHILOSOPHER
Haye landed flush?? Haye was charitably credited for 36 power punches landed throughout the whole fight.... 3 per round!! I'm thinking some must've been counted twice. No way Haye connected that much. And "flush" is the operative word here. I suffered through watching the damn fight and didn't see a single flush shot on Wlad's chin. None.
Please refrain from using the Haye fight as a measure of Wlad's chin.
He was talking about Mike Tyson actually.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
"But he also fought guys who were scared to death of him. When he faced a guy who wasn't afraid, he had problems like he did with Mitch Green, Tony Tucker, Bonecrusher Smith and Quick Tillis. Mike WAS in his prime when he fought them and they weren't legendary names either… they just weren't afraid of him."
(Emmanuel Steward, HOF trainer)
Just like you said -Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerWell, I mean besides Tyson who did Green fight that you'd expect to stop him? He only ever really fought Tyson and Berbick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
And what about James Tillis? Stopped 11 times in his career (3 times before Tyson including a 1-round beating from Tim Witherspoon).
Bonecrusher was stopped 7 times, twice before the Tyson fight including one to Larry Holmes, who hardly fits the discription of a KO artist. Then starched by Ruddock 2 years later.
And of course we can mention Razor, gave Mike fits (the first fight was a terrible early stoppage) and shortly after their fights he was DESTROYED by Lewis and taken out by The Duke of all people.
If you want to paint a picture of Tyson struggling with guys of a particular stature, you have to accept Wlad has stuggled when his head got cracked by fast handed punchers (well even slow handed plodders have knocked him down. Lets be honest). Best at best?Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
He was talking about Tyson in relation to Lewis. And the size advantage Tyson has suffered from, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by THE PHILOSOPHERHe was talking about Mike Tyson actually.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
"But he also fought guys who were scared to death of him. When he faced a guy who wasn't afraid, he had problems like he did with Mitch Green, Tony Tucker, Bonecrusher Smith and Quick Tillis. Mike WAS in his prime when he fought them and they weren't legendary names either… they just weren't afraid of him."
(Emmanuel Steward, HOF trainer)
Steward makes a far more significant point in that 2nd quote - "guys that weren't afraid of Tyson" - it's hard to see Wlad, who was diving all over the shop to get away from Sam Plodder Peter, wouldn't have froze against Tyson's onslaught?
The world would be so excited and in particular the US.
Price would muller him. Price could Knock out Zeus.
Have you ever seen him afraid? Mind you I'm not saying he's not a cautious guy but have you ever seen Wlad afraid? Also if a boxer is hurt it is a damn good strategy to hold on to clear your head. I recall Ismayl Sillakh being far ahead on points last year on FNF just to get a TKO loss because the fool didn't clinch.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterHe was talking about Tyson in relation to Lewis. And the size advantage Tyson has suffered from, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by THE PHILOSOPHERHe was talking about Mike Tyson actually.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
"But he also fought guys who were scared to death of him. When he faced a guy who wasn't afraid, he had problems like he did with Mitch Green, Tony Tucker, Bonecrusher Smith and Quick Tillis. Mike WAS in his prime when he fought them and they weren't legendary names either… they just weren't afraid of him."
(Emmanuel Steward, HOF trainer)
Steward makes a far more significant point in that 2nd quote - "guys that weren't afraid of Tyson" - it's hard to see Wlad, who was diving all over the shop to get away from Sam Plodder Peter, wouldn't have froze against Tyson's onslaught?
I'm not calling Wlad a coward or anything, but he does get flustered when he's put under pressure, there are numerous examples of this throughout his entire career, from his knockout losses, to jumping on the floor to stop Sam Peter getting close to him and even in his last fight against Wach.
Wlad's composure and confidence has been knocked out of shape by far lesser violent explosive fighters than Tyson. That's all i'm saying.
I would say Wlad and Tyson might be a toss up for me now because they both have something in common, which is getting beat by people they should of crushed. I will say this though at least Wald made improvements and went on to win. Tyson just got his ass beat and went out sitting on the canvas not even wanting to get up. I still rate Tyson on the lower part of the top ten though behind people like Holyfeild and Lennox and of course the greatest. As for Wald i would not rank him till he is retired its always a better idea i think.
No ATG heavyweight in history is criticized as much as Mike
Dominating a guy for the distance and winning a wide UD is considered a "subpar" performance by him ... completely ridiculous criteria ... I don't see anyone else being held to such standards besides Mike.
Most people see Tyson getting decisions over guys like Green or Smith and they automatically assume that they gave him "trouble" ... yet Mike dominated all of these guys, with the exceptions of Tillis and maybe Tucker. Green and Smith just held on for dear life and only survived because they were able to frustrate Mike by tangling him up and not letting him get his shots off clean. This is not a boxing tactic or strategy, its simply survival mode.
Why couldn't Waldo KO Haye when he had a weak chin??? He didn't even hold like Green or Smith. The reason is because he was looking to survive with Wlad ... he even took 2 or 3 rounds from him and made him look foolish at times by dodging 3 and 4 punch combos from that stiff robot.
Tyson would've gotten that version of Haye out of there in a single round, brutally.
Hey Tyson bomb your reaching with the Wald Haye fight dude. As for Tyson being criticized he is also overrated by far more people. Saying that he was a great champ but he does not have a resume same as Wald. That's why i rated someone like Foreman or Holyfeild higher they have wins.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Tyson doesn't KO Mitch Green so he "fails" even though he won the fight EASILY.
Wlad didn't KO Haye but won via decision but is still a huge success and exposed Haye, despite failing to achieve his promised 50th KO.
Nope no double standard at all.
And Wlad's resume is GARBAGE. Tyson's amateur resume is better.
God i know you love Tyson but his best win is a 38 year old Holmes who had not fought for 2 years. I not saying Wald is any better there pretty close in resume. I am a Holyfeild fan so it is not like i care who's better don't have a bias towards anyone.
I've already gone over Wlad's best wins. They are nothing special. Unless you consider cruisers, hepatitis patients, and washed up geriatrics top tier wins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
And who mentioned Holmes and who cares about him? Tyson was the best fighter he ever fought while it can be argued that Tyson fought a couple of guys better than Holmes.
Your pretty bias so it be hard to take what you say to seriously. Who is better then Holmes i would love to hear it because that is pretty much his best win. As for Wlad i say Chag, Haye and Bryde are not to far off from everyone that is not Holmes.
Chagaev had hepatitis, like I mentioned before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
And how am I biased?
His wins against Ruddock were better than the Holmes win ... Holmes was still a very good win though, definitely in his top 5.
Holmes didn't fight anyone during his reign either ... he beat an old Norton, big deal. Tyson was his best opponent by far and he was crushed.
Seriously Chag, Haye and Byrd? :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
A hepatitis patient, a glass jawed cruiser who ran the whole fight, and a blown up middleweight.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterSeriously Chag, Haye and Byrd? :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
lol.
Chagaev was a very good boxer but he was sick ... Haye was just a hype job ... and Byrd was only fighting in the heavyweight division to make money. 2 of the 3 aren't even real heavyweights.
Whos is way above them master i say maybe Rudduck but Page and Tucker not so sure. I mean none of those guys were greats. Tyson outstanding wins is lhw Spinks and Holmes who was retired for 2 years.
I do agree on the double standard thing. Wladimir had some less than dazzeling wins as well. (Ibragimov for example) To be fair to both fighters, I maintain that prime for prime they both have qualities to give each other trouble. I think the winner of a fight between Wlad and Mike would depend on how unnerved Wlad does or does not become and how far into the later rounds the fight goes. Early rounds advantage goes to Mike. Later round advantage to Wladimir.Quote:
Originally Posted by TysonBombQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Tyson doesn't KO Mitch Green so he "fails" even though he won the fight EASILY.
Wlad didn't KO Haye but won via decision but is still a huge success and exposed Haye, despite failing to achieve his promised 50th KO.
Nope no double standard at all.
And Wlad's resume is GARBAGE. Tyson's amateur resume is better.
Tyson never fought Page professionally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Wlad gasses and tires out worst than Tyson. Wlad has HORRIBLE stamina and nearly punched himself out again against Wach.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninjaspy3I do agree on the double standard thing. Wladimir had some less than dazzeling wins as well. (Ibragimov for example) To be fair to both fighters, I maintain that prime for prime they both have qualities to give each other trouble. I think the winner of a fight between Wlad and Mike would depend on how unnerved Wlad does or does not become and how far into the later rounds the fight goes. Early rounds advantage goes to Mike. Later round advantage to Wladimir.Quote:
Originally Posted by TysonBombQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Tyson doesn't KO Mitch Green so he "fails" even though he won the fight EASILY.
Wlad didn't KO Haye but won via decision but is still a huge success and exposed Haye, despite failing to achieve his promised 50th KO.
Nope no double standard at all.
And Wlad's resume is GARBAGE. Tyson's amateur resume is better.
He has absolutely NO chance of beating Tyson.
He would be scared to death.
I don't know why you shit on Bryde he did pretty well in hw divsion and had some good wins and defended the belt as well. Not the same can be said about people Tyson faced.
Undefeated Tucker and Briggs, Spinks, Thomas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
My bad i meant to say Thomas don't know why i got that mixed up. As for the question i had earlier who was better then Holmes because i don't Rudduck or Tucker were better wins at all.
That's because the division was crap. Tysons opposition was just fine and better than Wlads, whose best win was against a sick man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Just take a look at Holmes resume post Tyson. He only lost 3 fights after that (all of them were close) despite his advanced age. Tyson is the only guy to ever KO Holmes btw.
Spinks did nothing at heavyweight but get a gift from the judges and Holmes did not fight for 2 years. Thomas, Tucker and Rudduck were no greats they were ok fighters about the same as now.
Agreed they were not great but they were better than Byrd. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Don't think that there that far ahead i mean who did they beat to be better the Bryde. I mean i think Tua on Bryde resume is better then anything those guys have dont you think.
Also it still does not change what i said before hand about Holmes being his best win. Because i pretty sure that Spinks, Thomas and Rudduck i am pretty sure are not better wins then Holmes was.
(QUOTE) Who did he beat that was comparable to prime lewis.
Larry (abiet an older larry) and many other tall hard hitting long armed fighters with solid chins or not. Lewis was KOed by Rahman his chin cant take Tysons punch. Tysons chin on the other hand is much more likely to hold up..
[QUOTE] Do u mean FLOORED? LOL. And Tyson has been brutally stopped by much lesser punchers than K2!.
Yes I mean floored everyone makes a spelling error once in a while its not cool to insult someone based on that. Vitali has a weak punch, buster dougless hits alot harder than vitali. .
(QUOTE) Whats your point? How did Tyson do against lewis' and Williams punches and how did VK do? Being wobbled is not comparable to being KTFO by Douglas or Holyfield or Williams! Lewis and Sanders are giant punchers and he took there best shots....his chin is iron!.
His chin is not iron he has a solid chin and good defense he almost crumbled against sanders, and sanders is no where near as powerful as Tyson. A past prime Tyson took loads of flush shots from Lennox and he never got KOed fully, again another reason why he would beat Lewsis in his prime. .
Tyson was never KOTFO by anyone, missed the count sure never KOTFO and he takes an INSANE number of power punches to be put down. Huge numbers go check how many times danny hit him full power in the head in a row. (Which he never would have done to a prime Tyson with some of the best head movement).
[QUOTE] Only someone with an exceptional chin or power could beat a prime Tyson[/SIZE] e.g. holyfield ali for chin and perhaps a slugger like foreman could beat him too, buster dougless was a fluke 9/10 times Tyson would beat buster dougless.
And Douglas LOL.
And u never saw VK kickboxing. Kickboxing utilises legs aswell as punches it is a different sport. U probably don't even know about kickboxing anyway. Stop with the Pele Reid crap, he was brutalised by O Norris and J Francis both of whom Vitali stopped easily in boxing..
Bottem line Vitalis chin cannot take Tysons power if he is getting wobbled by much lesser punchers. Dougless hits harder than Vitali, just because he is low ranking in History dosnt mean he isnt a dangerous puncher. .
QUOTE U criticise VK's chin yet make out Ali's was better! He was sparked out by 185lb CW Henry Cooper. Point me to were that happened with VK.
Ali also took many full power shots from Foreman, Earnie Shavers, Liston, Joe, etc, .
IN CONCLUSION VITALI DOSNT HAVE THE CHIN OR THE POWER OR THE STYLE OR THE SPEED TO HOLD UP AGAINST A PRIME TYSON.
I LIKE VITALI HE IS A GREAT CHAMPION, BUT ITS A WEAK ERA HE HAS DOMINATED AND TYSON IS A VERY BAD STYLISTICAL MATCH UP FOR HIM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beanflickerQuote:
Originally Posted by omgwtf
1. Vitali got knocked out by pele reid with a spinning kick. A punch from tyson, shavers, or foreman doesn't hold a candle to a solid, flush kick from a professional kickboxer. You generate a lot more power with a kick than a punch. No one is taking that flush spinning kick from pele reid and staying conscious - i don't care how good your chin is. And that's not even mentioning the fact that vitali was a kid back then, with a lanky "praying mantis" frame that wasn't yet built to take a huge forceful blow.
2. Tall fighters were tailor made for tyson's style? Yeah, maybe guys like dave jaco. The truth is, like i mentioned he struggled with a complete can in 6'4'' jameson, struggled offensively against 6'5'' mitch green as well as 6'4'' bonecrusher smith. Took 10 rounds to finish 6'5'' ribalta, went the distance with 6'5'' tony tucker and took 7 rounds to finish 6'5'' tyrell biggs.then of course he got destroyed by 6'4'' buster douglas and was given hell by 6'4'' razor ruddock.
That's prime mike. If you want to go post-jail mike, who were his losses? Holyfield of course beat his ass twice, then 6'5'' lewis, 6'4'' danny williams and 6'6''/6'7'' kevin mcbride.
I don't know where you're getting this "tall fighters were made for tyson" idea, because historically his worst performances were against tall guys.
fair enough point about kickboxing, a spinning heel kick is one of the surest kicks to ko if it lands
all those tall guys you mentioned tyson smashed lol
Spinks is one of the greatest light-heavyweights in history and the Spinks Tyson starched beat a better version of Holmes twice then the Holmes that Tyson fought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Razor was ducked by many including Tyson who fought Douglas instead. To Tysons credit he did fight Razor after that, got the quick stop by Steele imo and then rematched and won a convincing points win. That Razor would have kicked the shit out of the Holmes Tyson fought or Wlad.
Point is you cant just use resumes/records. Many greats we have no tape of, Greb, Robinson(147), Wilde, Langford etc but Tyson was witnessed. I mean tell me one fighter of note that Holmes fought at their prime? Tyson is the only answer. Tyson walked through a division in about two years. I hated him. Spent money on ppv's wanting to see him get knocked out.
Sorry but Rudduck could not even win a belt and lost his few attempts that he tried and clearly lost.Say what you want about now its not great but it was only a bit worse compared to that era, both suck compared to 1970s and the 1990's. I am not even a fan of Wlad but that man gets shit on more then any champ i have seen. When people say that Jack Demesey who would not even fight black fighters and was champ in early 1900s would beat Wlad i feel like its a joke or something. As for spinks your right great lhw but at Heavyweight he got gifts over a 36 year old Holmes.
Ken Norton never won a belt either, so why is he an ATG again? Belts don't mean anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Ruddock was being DUCKED which is why he never got a title shot until after the Tyson fights when he was clearly done at competing at an elite level. Tyson ruined this mans shot.
And Tyson fought Ruddock twice in '91, so clearly you don't even know what decade you are in with your point about the 90s and 70s. Dempsey was a far superior champion to Wlad who is a joke fighting in an era of fat, unathletic, slow heavyweights with trash conditioning and skill. He would get smoked by Ruddock who would leave a trail of broken glass all over the canvas and the arena they would be fighting in.
Never seen anyone get hurt by any single clean shot they get hit with like Waldo ... never seen anyone that concerned about protecting the chin like him either. He's pure Ukranian GLASS.
Just because Rudduck could not win a belt does not make him rubbish. Tyson effectively ruined him and he was never the same fighter again. The same could be said of Tucker and Briggs.Quote:
Originally Posted by TysonBombKen Norton never won a belt either, so why is he an ATG again? Belts don't mean anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Ruddock was being DUCKED which is why he never got a title shot until after the Tyson fights when he was clearly done at competing at an elite level. Tyson ruined this mans shot.
And Tyson fought Ruddock in '92, so clearly you don't even know what decade you are in with your point about the 90s and 70s. Dempsey was a far superior champion to Wlad who is a joke fighting in an era of fat, unathletic, slow heavyweights with trash conditioning and skill. He would get smoked by Ruddock who would leave a trail of broken glass all over the canvas and the arena they would be fighting in.
Never seen anyone get hurt by any single clean shot they get hit with like Waldo ... never seen anyone that concerned about protecting the chin like him either. He's pure Ukranian GLASS.
Rudduck lost to all the top guys that were in the 1990's so i dont really included him. He got iced by by Lennox and Tommy, why dont you tell me what big win he had make him historic like nortan as well.