Re: When David met Wlad..
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
It's probable that one or two of these (giant) prospects might be able to give Wlad a good, competitive fight, and even hurt him. But the time it's taking to sort these out is unbearably frustrating. If it's not the Wilders of the division, doing their best Cesar Chavez Jr. imitations (fighting bums)..... it's the injuries and mysterious inactive spells. Then you get a promising fighter (Price) who stumbles out of the gate. I for one think he's not done by any means..... but then again he's buddies with Wlad and will never fight him, so what's the point?
As for the chances of Haye beating Wlad? I'm sorry to say that solely based on their one and only fight..... it's like the snowball's chance in hell. And don't lean on the size difference so much. It's not like it's the first time a small heavyweight has been in there with a large heavyweight. It's not the size of the body. It's the size of the heart.
it sounds like we both want to see the same thing, and thats wlad in a fight
I agree Hayes chances are minimal although I think his performance isnt judged fairly because of the build up
you didnt really answer my question tho which suggests to me you agree, hayes minimal chances are the best weve got
i honestly think haye is the only man with the combination of skill speed and power to land the punch, i dont see wilder fury or price causing wlad much problems at all at the minute
pulev looks good and perhaps has the chance, he doesnt seem to be a big enough hitter tho, although do you need to be to put wlad away
But Haye hasn't done much to earn a rematch with Wlad, eric. Demanding to fight no one but a Klitschko isn't the way to get it done. He had his chance... and blew it. He personally hyped the fight to much more than what it turned out to be..... infamously blamed a big toe for the lack of performance..... and now still insists on his prima donna act.
Yes... I want to see Wlad in a fight in the worst way. I was hoping we'd get that from Haye. It didn't happen. And now..... it's "back of the line" for Haye. I don't believe in special treatments. Just because the division is made up of so much riff-raff, doesn't mean Haye gets a free pass while other, toiling HW's have to wait their turn. That's like Thompson getting a third crack at Wlad. I wouldn't want that either.
absolutely
id be happy to see him skip the proving it though and go straight into another try
Re: When David met Wlad..
If Haye pressured Wlad then Wlad would have stopped him FACT. The only reason he didn't was because #1 Wlad wanted the fight to go 12 and #2 David wouldn't engage in any kind of boxing, he either ran or feigned as though Wlad had fouled him and looked to the ref for help.
Champions don't behave like that and Haye should stay away from boxing on account of it. Did David have talent? Yeah I'll be the first to admit it, he is a very solid athlete: strong, quick, powerful.....but he's one of those guys that pisses it away he's got a million dollar body and a 10 cent brain. Go out on your shield and I'll have respect for you, but talk shit for YEARS and then provide that kind of performance?!?! As a fan of boxing I say "no thank you"....Bruce Seldon showed more backbone than Haye has at heavyweight.
Re: When David met Wlad..
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
It became a contest of who could sink the lowest from pre-fight expectations.
It was close... but Haye won. ;)
They're both to blame.
I posted this last week. It still applies.
Re: When David met Wlad..
Here is Haye running and not engaging in any boxing. He never even threw one punch remember ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51o7RksA__o
Re: When David met Wlad..
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greenbeanz
Why the fuck does the same criteria not apply to Wlad? The taller, bigger super heavy weight champion guy who had promised to knock out the annoying little blown up cruiserweight spends 12 rounds not trying very hard to engage, and is given a free pass. This man who had mocked him and his big brother, upset his family and degraded boxing into a circus, (as though it wasn't already) and all he could manage was a pawing jab and a few fouls, leaning on, pushing down and using the forearm. All this and people were only let down by notoriously big mouthed Haye?
The reason the criteria doesn't apply to Wlad to the same degree is because Haye talked up a storm before the fight, for an exended period of time, and Wlad didn't. That's just hte bottom line. Then the fight happened and Haye didn't deliver. I don't even think @erics44 disagrees with that and he's Haye's biggest supporter on this forum. Wlad fights the same way every fight. We know what we're getting. You don't see his other opponents tarred and feathered the same way that Haye was after the Wlad fight because they haven't been as outspoken. Honestly, @Greenbeanz , it's a stale topic.
We know what will happen if Haye fights Wlad. I would prefer to see Haye fight Pulev, Boystov and the rest of the top heavyweights. I don't think Haye is a particularly exciting fighter, but he is still a massive draw in the UK, and a brash personality, which attracts people to boxing for better or worse.
Re: When David met Wlad..
Ok Beanz... if Haye met your expectations for the fight, that is your prerogative.
Others will say that it was Wlad who did what he had to, and is therefore also not to blame.
I maintain it was both. Haye made it his business to tell everyone how he was going to attack and destroy Wlad. Just like he was going to (ahem)... "clean out the heavyweight division" (still waiting). The hype before the fight was unlike anything we've ever seen. There are those who'll say... "Bravo... he sold the fight." Really?? Is that all it takes to please some fans? I guess I'm the oddball. I expect boxers to back up what they say. At least with an honest effort.
My problems with Wlad's style, meanwhile, are well-documented. Haye talked so-o-o-o much shit.... it was expected for Wlad to do all he could to shut that mouth. He didn't. He survived 12 uneventful rounds, content with letting Haye also not do shit. In the end, it was a boring spectacle, hardly worth the money.
Difference in size..... bum toe..... bad day at the office..... they're all excuses.
Boxing is "put up or shut up."
And you get one chance to leapfrog the more quiet, boring contenders and get a shot at the top....... ONE. If you squander it in spectacular fashion, it's back to the end of the line for you, where you probably should've been in the first place.
Re: When David met Wlad..
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greenbeanz
Why the fuck does the same criteria not apply to Wlad? The taller, bigger super heavy weight champion guy who had promised to knock out the annoying little blown up cruiserweight spends 12 rounds not trying very hard to engage, and is given a free pass. This man who had mocked him and his big brother, upset his family and degraded boxing into a circus, (as though it wasn't already) and all he could manage was a pawing jab and a few fouls, leaning on, pushing down and using the forearm. All this and people were only let down by notoriously big mouthed Haye?
The reason the criteria doesn't apply to Wlad to the same degree is because Haye talked up a storm before the fight, for an exended period of time, and Wlad didn't. That's just hte bottom line. Then the fight happened and Haye didn't deliver. I don't even think @
erics44 disagrees with that and he's Haye's biggest supporter on this forum. Wlad fights the same way every fight. We know what we're getting. You don't see his other opponents tarred and feathered the same way that Haye was after the Wlad fight because they haven't been as outspoken. Honestly, @
Greenbeanz , it's a stale topic.
We know what will happen if Haye fights Wlad. I would prefer to see Haye fight Pulev, Boystov and the rest of the top heavyweights. I don't think Haye is a particularly exciting fighter, but he is still a massive draw in the UK, and a brash personality, which attracts people to boxing for better or worse.
i dont disagree with haye not delivering
i do think that wlad did a lot of talking as has vitali since and all the blame is and was all on haye before the fight and after the fight and seemingly even now with the vitali saga (the last bit i think is particularly amazing)
yes he deserves his share of the blame for a shit fight, but i think wlad and his team are to blame for the fight not happening sooner than it did and i also think that vitali and his team are to blame for the haye vitali fight not happening now
i think most people are very pissed off with haye because the felt they were gonna finally be freed from the bordom of the klits and they actually believed he could and would do it
Re: When David met Wlad..
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greenbeanz
So basically Haye never decapitated Wlad and therefore it was OK for big Wlad to pussyfoot around and not take any risks. It sounds like people bought the hype and are STILL sore about Haye underestimating the size of the task at hand. No is saying that Haye was not full of krap, but people are forgetting the reticence to engage from either Klitschko, inside or outside of the ring.
With all due respect, I don't think the majority of boxing fans, outside Germany, enjoy Wladimir Klitschko's style. Although there is more to it than meets the eye, many people blame Wladimir's style as the reason he isn't accepted in the United States. Floyd Mayweather, who has a different style, has taken the same criticism, as has Andre Ward. It's the "reticence" you refer to, a defense-first style. However, his style was the same before and after the Haye fight. Fighting Haye didn't change Wladimir's game plan, nor should it have. As the age-old adage goes, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. If Wladimir had been down many rounds and he didn't go for broke, he would be to blame for losing. However, he was ahead by the middle of the rounds. At that point, it was Haye who needed to step up, and he didn't deliver.
The bottom line is that as @erics44 stated above, there were many boxing fans that thought to themselves, "finally, a challenger who is going to make Wlad go to deep place." The reason people felt that way is because Haye had talked loads of crap before the fight. People expected Haye to go after Wlad in a big way. These people were disappointed with Haye's fight. In my opinion, they have a right to be.
Re: When David met Wlad..
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greenbeanz
So basically Haye never decapitated Wlad and therefore it was OK for big Wlad to pussyfoot around and not take any risks. It sounds like people bought the hype and are STILL sore about Haye underestimating the size of the task at hand. No is saying that Haye was not full of krap, but people are forgetting the reticence to engage from either Klitschko, inside or outside of the ring.
With all due respect, I don't think the majority of boxing fans, outside Germany, enjoy Wladimir Klitschko's style. Although there is more to it than meets the eye, many people blame Wladimir's style as the reason he isn't accepted in the United States. Floyd Mayweather, who has a different style, has taken the same criticism, as has Andre Ward. It's the "reticence" you refer to, a defense-first style. However, his style was the same before and after the Haye fight. Fighting Haye didn't change Wladimir's game plan, nor should it have. As the age-old adage goes,
if it ain't broke, don't fix it. If Wladimir had been down many rounds and he didn't go for broke, he would be to blame for losing. However, he was ahead by the middle of the rounds. At that point, it was Haye who needed to step up, and he didn't deliver.
The bottom line is that as @
erics44 stated above, there were many boxing fans that thought to themselves, "finally, a challenger who is going to make Wlad go to deep place." The reason people felt that way is because Haye had talked loads of crap before the fight. People expected Haye to go after Wlad in a big way. These people were disappointed with Haye's fight. In my opinion, they have a right to be.
the fans anger is mainly around the fact that they really wanted it to happen, if it was haye shouting out a more entertaining (accepted) HW champ in the same way then the whole episode would have passed now, everyone would have forgotten
wlad made a lot of im gonna knock him out noises too as has vitali since, all that goes relatively unnoticed because noone really cares, they just want to see someone else as HW champ, anyone
Re: When David met Wlad..
Beanz Wlad doesn't catch hell because he never pretended he was going to do anything other than what he always does. Did Wlad talk ungodly amounts of trash for 4 years? Did Wlad say he was going to decapitate Haye? Wlad was respectful & professional and he fought that fight no different than any other ergo the expectations of him doing anything else weren't there.
Do you get how that works?
Re: When David met Wlad..
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
the fans anger is mainly around the fact that they really wanted it to happen, if it was haye shouting out a more entertaining (accepted) HW champ in the same way then the whole episode would have passed now, everyone would have forgotten
wlad made a lot of im gonna knock him out noises too as has vitali since, all that goes relatively unnoticed because noone really cares, they just want to see someone else as HW champ, anyone
Then quit watching until they've retired because nobody will beat them
Re: When David met Wlad..
Haye needs to forget about Vitali. Its almost a meaningless fight. Instead put in the effort to get another crack at Wlad. Watch some tape and devise a game plan. Get rid of Booth if need be instead of just showing up. FFS Sam Peter was able to get under that jab and he was slower then the second coming of Christ.
Re: When David met Wlad..
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
the fans anger is mainly around the fact that they really wanted it to happen, if it was haye shouting out a more entertaining (accepted) HW champ in the same way then the whole episode would have passed now, everyone would have forgotten
wlad made a lot of im gonna knock him out noises too as has vitali since, all that goes relatively unnoticed because noone really cares, they just want to see someone else as HW champ, anyone
Then quit watching until they've retired because nobody will beat them
im willing to keep watching in the hope that one day wlad will be blasted out just one more time
im not that bothered either way if vitali retires or not, he's been a decent HW champ despite his reign being forgettable mainly due to the opposition
Re: When David met Wlad..
Haye can't, and won't. Thompson already tried twice, which is once too many for my taste. The other "annointed" challenges to Wlad have been stumbling all over themselves, either losing fights on the way up, or remaining inactive due to some mysterious illness, or due to promotional issues.
Meanwhile, the clock is ticking and Wlad is getting older. Soon, the age excuse will manifest itself and will give Wlad a way out of any dangerous encounters. The division continues to be shit... and Wlad is content with pawing his way through the record books. 99% chance Wlad will retire without ever having been pushed to the brink, like most other great fighters have been.
In short......... this is a fucking nightmare.
Re: When David met Wlad..
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greenbeanz
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Haye needs to forget about Vitali. Its almost a meaningless fight. Instead put in the effort to get another crack at Wlad. Watch some tape and devise a game plan. Get rid of Booth if need be instead of just showing up. FFS Sam Peter was able to get under that jab and he was slower then the second coming of Christ.
I agree somewhat with this in that I can't really see what Booth does to help his fighters technique wise. I think both Haye and Groves are both very gifted, particularly offensively but their technique is lacking that finesse and adaptability that only a good trainer can implant. I am not sure that Haye could ever beat Wlad because I am not blind to Wladamir's undoubted ability to use his physical advantage and skillset to nullify the opposition. It is frustrating that he doesn't push himself out of his comfort zone, he could destroy people
early and it used to frustrate Manny that he did not sometimes.
early is the operative word because with a 80% KO ratio, he clearly is knocking people the F out.
Re: When David met Wlad..
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greenbeanz
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Haye needs to forget about Vitali. Its almost a meaningless fight. Instead put in the effort to get another crack at Wlad. Watch some tape and devise a game plan. Get rid of Booth if need be instead of just showing up. FFS Sam Peter was able to get under that jab and he was slower then the second coming of Christ.
I agree somewhat with this in that I can't really see what Booth does to help his fighters technique wise. I think both Haye and Groves are both very gifted, particularly offensively but their technique is lacking that finesse and adaptability that only a good trainer can implant. I am not sure that Haye could ever beat Wlad because I am not blind to Wladamir's undoubted ability to use his physical advantage and skillset to nullify the opposition. It is frustrating that he doesn't push himself out of his comfort zone, he could destroy people
early and it used to frustrate Manny that he did not sometimes.
early is the operative word because with a 80% KO ratio, he clearly is knocking people the F out.
i for one think he is right up there with the best of all time, he is massively underrated by a lot of people in those conversations and in my opinion fighters like ali and frasier are massively over rated, at his best i would put him in the top 5 without a doubt
he is extremely boring tho and if there has been a less entertaining period of hw boxing ill eat my hat, coupled with his boring style in the ring he is extremely boring in interviews and outside the ring also
if you had stats of all the genuine HW champs in history having never seen any of them fight and you had to pick one to be the HW champ you may well pick wlad, having seen them fight you definately wouldnt, in fact he would be a long way down the list
on this occasion the stats are very deceiveing
Re: When David met Wlad..
People can complain all they want to about Wlad, but he's efficient & effective. No he won't be drawn into a war #1 because that's not his style and that's not the style of many fighters though none catch as much hell as Wlad #2 because nobody is talented enough to force Wladimir into a war there were guys around that could have, but either lacked the mental or physical strength to make that happen.
Lamon Brewster vs Wlad I was about as close as it gets to Wlad being in a "war". Brewster pressured, pressured, and pressured some more took lots of damage and just wore Wlad down, but in the rematch you see what happens to fighters who enjoy having wars, they get older quicker, they break down, they casn't keep that intensity that high throughout their career. Look at Riddick Bowe, each fight was a battle and his prime was very short as a result.
Wlad fights smart and in the future I bet we see talented heavyweights who are intent on being "exciting" and their successes will not reach their maximum potential because they won't fight smart. Wlad fights the way which he is most comfortable and again he is most successful that way, why expect him to fight like Tyson or Marciano? Let Wlad be Wlad, I'd say the same for any other heavyweight this successful. What matters at the end of the day are wins & losses, Wlad keeps winning fighting the way he's fighting so easily that no person can think of a current threat to his title.
Re: When David met Wlad..
And yet @Eric44 has him top 5 heavyweight?
Re: When David met Wlad..
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
And yet @
Eric44 has him top 5 heavyweight?
....where he'd still be behind Frank Bruno :shakehead:
Re: When David met Wlad..
obviously bruno is the best lb 4 lb fighter of all time, who is better?
Re: When David met Wlad..
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
obviously bruno is the best lb 4 lb fighter of all time, who is better?
He is certainly p4p one of the hardest punchers in all seriousness.
