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Hes the best heavyweight of all time in my opinion. He just hasnt had one career defining win against another all time great which keeps him further down the list of ATGs. Very similar to Floyd imo. Both could be top 10 if in Wlads case he had better opponents or if Floyd would push himself with opposition.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
I remember Lewis vs Grant was billed as 2BIG;D Lewis exposed that boy as 2fraudulent, so I concur.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
I also remember Rock Newman having Riddick Bowe throw the belt in the garbage can. As much as I like Riddick-- that was a hoe-ass move. I credit Lennox for that- How does Bowe not want to fight that man who beat him in the olympics?
Tyson would beat Bruce Seldon because he payed Lennox Lewis $ 4 million dollars September 1996 to 'step aside' correct? That is the buster of all hoe azz moves. especially considering that phantom punch Seldon got hit with....two knockdowns.
Akinwande was so scurred of Lennox he held him like they were slow dragging at prom night- till he got DQ'd.
And just like Wlad, Lennox got stopped by nobodies- McCall (Tyson's sparring partner) and Rahman who Maskaev beat his butt outta the ring. Jim Lampley: Rahman is LAYING RIGHT NEXT TO ME! RIGHT NEXT TO ME!
What separates Lennox from Wlad appears simple to me: Lennox has been in dog fights- and won.
Tyson decisioned Ruddock- Lewis destroyed him in 2. Bruno IMO was to Lennox what Brewster was to Wlad- both Lennox & Wlad were raw and didnt have years of Manny Steward's mentoring.
Mercer to Lewis IMO could be Sanders & Wlad. Not style wise, but digging deep down.
Lennox dug down deep, Wlad just fell down.
Golota had just schooled Bowe, but broke down mentally & DQ'd Going into that fight Golota's rep IMO was more solid than say an Ibrigamov or Povetkin for Wlad...Lennox destroyed that boy in one.
Briggs - strong fighter but suspect skills came out swingin for the fences and Lennox dismantled Briggs and landed Haye-friggin makers on Briggs.
Based on those fights and the ones not made, give me the opinion that Wlad wouldn't have hung with Lennox. Not a fact, its all speculation, as you said we will never know, so we just argue like we think we know how it woulda went down and I say Lennox beats Wlad's Muth#@%^! ass! ;D
What is fact: Wlad has ruled for a long time like Holmes and I really dont have too many good names to add to Larry Holmes either..
Just like with Lennox and all the top champs, their widespread acceptance wont be complete until after their retirement.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Except these days the difference is many realise the true worth BEFORE the era is ling in the past.
I disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlimTraeI remember Lewis vs Grant was billed as 2BIG;D Lewis exposed that boy as 2fraudulent, so I concur.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
I also remember Rock Newman having Riddick Bowe throw the belt in the garbage can. As much as I like Riddick-- that was a hoe-ass move. I credit Lennox for that- How does Bowe not want to fight that man who beat him in the olympics?
Tyson would beat Bruce Seldon because he payed Lennox Lewis $ 4 million dollars September 1996 to 'step aside' correct? That is the buster of all hoe azz moves. especially considering that phantom punch Seldon got hit with....two knockdowns.
Akinwande was so scurred of Lennox he held him like they were slow dragging at prom night- till he got DQ'd.
And just like Wlad, Lennox got stopped by nobodies- McCall (Tyson's sparring partner) and Rahman who Maskaev beat his butt outta the ring. Jim Lampley: Rahman is LAYING RIGHT NEXT TO ME! RIGHT NEXT TO ME!
What separates Lennox from Wlad appears simple to me: Lennox has been in dog fights- and won.
Tyson decisioned Ruddock- Lewis destroyed him in 2. Bruno IMO was to Lennox what Brewster was to Wlad- both Lennox & Wlad were raw and didnt have years of Manny Steward's mentoring.
Mercer to Lewis IMO could be Sanders & Wlad. Not style wise, but digging deep down.
Lennox dug down deep, Wlad just fell down.
Golota had just schooled Bowe, but broke down mentally & DQ'd Going into that fight Golota's rep IMO was more solid than say an Ibrigamov or Povetkin for Wlad...Lennox destroyed that boy in one.
Briggs - strong fighter but suspect skills came out swingin for the fences and Lennox dismantled Briggs and landed Haye-friggin makers on Briggs.
Based on those fights and the ones not made, give me the opinion that Wlad wouldn't have hung with Lennox. Not a fact, its all speculation, as you said we will never know, so we just argue like we think we know how it woulda went down and I say Lennox beats Wlad's Muth#@%^! ass! ;D
What is fact: Wlad has ruled for a long time like Holmes and I really dont have too many good names to add to Larry Holmes either..
Lewis never fought an opponent like Sanders, he ducked ALL southpaws. And Sanders combination of qualities, dangerous in the early rounds was EXACTLY the juice necessary to catch a lazy Lewis off guard and KO him as well. I would say not the same stylistically, but this fight is analogous to Lewis's loss to McCall!
The Brewster fight was illegitimate in my book because Wladimir was diagnosed with, PROVEN to have a life-threatening condition immediately post-bout. That is why the big money never materialised for Brewster because everybody KNEW. Of course it was good fuel for American haters to still try to pass off to this very day as negative stigma. The Brewster fight was NOTHING like the Mercer battle for Lennox, which was a competitive fight for LEwis. Wladimir single sidedly bashed Brewsters brains out until he succumbed to illness right at the very end. Wladimir would NEVER be troubled by a boxer like Ray MErcer ever.
Shannon Briggs BREACHED Lennox and nearly got the drop on him! Again, I can't see Wladimir having any problems with Shannon.
I can't see Wladimir letting MAvrovic run around for 12 rounds.
I can't see Wladimir losing rounds to Holyfield.
The only guys LEnnox truly wasted, Botha, Ruddock, Grant and Golota- These guys are nothing more than humdrum opponents for Wladimir too.
To say that Wladimir could not hang with LEnnox doesn't stand up to facts because many lesser fighters did and many lesser fighters pushed LEnnox.
Yes, LEnnox Lewis might just be the best boxer who ever lived (in the open class).Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
But Lennox's own performances call into question just how well he himself would have performed against Wladimir.
Although similar in proportions to Michael Grant, Wladimir is nothing like Grant. He would not attack LEwis like that and go for a dog fight. He would fight methodically and surgically as he always does. Lennox has never felt the concussive slam of that chopping right hand, that ramrod jab or that savage long-range left hook.
What was that ? I don't remember wladimir being diagnosed with anything? Although I could well be wrong, I remember he said he was exhausted after the 4th round.Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Power
Wladimir Klitschko is physically stronger than Lennox and Vitali.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Chin wise he is about equal to Lennox.
Yeah sure, you are right, he is never involved in a dog fight like Vits or Lenny sometimes do, that's true. He ties his man up instead!
Personally, so long as he doesn't get DQ'd for it, it DOES NOT MATTER how he handles himself on the inside. So long as the end result is that he beats up his opponents.
I think it makes Wladimir less exciting to watch than Lennox or Vitali, same as everyone, but it's atleast as effective.
And don't give me that cheating thing either, only 1 fight can be called into question as ethically wrong and that's his Povetkin debacle. But you have to agree that in between all the wrestling here he still dominantly pulverised Alexander!
He was noted by ring doctors with dilated pupils and other symptoms and immediately rushed to hospital via ambulance and diagnosed with hyperglycaemia on the verge of a diabetic coma. He reported feeling sick before the bout and despite the fight with Brewster being little more than a better sparring session for him, he visibly became weaker and weaker every round.Quote:
Originally Posted by palmerqWhat was that ? I don't remember wladimir being diagnosed with anything? Although I could well be wrong, I remember he said he was exhausted after the 4th round.Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Power
Urine samples were taken and what happened after that was a real mystery. The samples went "missing" from the laboratory. Wladimir and Judd launched an investigation but nothing could be made of it without a sample. This was important as Wladimir CLAIMED he might have been poisoned. Some people believe it was a steroid overdose but that doesn't explain Wladimir pushing the issue.
One fact remains, whether from natural causes or otherwise is the hyperglycaemia. The REAL ending to Wladimir vs Brewster is seen in the second fight.
as for quality opponents, although it really depends what you mean by quality :S I would say the following have some good quality, in my uneducated opinion, I do watch a good few heavyweight fights though..
I'd say, povetkin and haye are at the top, povetkin had an excellent amateur career(olympics,euro and world champ) and has dispatched some competent contenders too, byrd, chambers, polish guy wawryk(i hate spelling there names :S),charr, chagaev and takam, none of those fellows are elite class but povetkin beat them all and usual in style too, I do think if povetkin was an american or from blighty(don't want to sound like the fellow who claims fighters are only liked because they are black, as that is bollocks) but I think he would be close to being a superstar. just based on who he has beaten and how. It is hard to say how good haye actually is as a heavyweight due to his cherry picking of opponents but I think he certainly has a lot of quality and was very quick in his fight with wladimir.
I would say chagaev has quality too, another decorated amateur who defeated ruiz and valuev(closely in both), chris byrd was no mug either, pulev had acumulated a nice record too, Ibragimov had a nice amateur career and beat shanon briggs(who some say should get a shot at wlad now :S) and a past it holyfield but holyfield did show afterwards that he had something left when he had his close decision loss to valuev.
so errr i forgot what i was typing.. I would say the quality opponents wlad fought are
povetkin
haye
chagaev
ibragimov
byrd
pulev
thompson
chambers
brock
sanders and brewster too,even though he lost I like those guys a lot
and possibly sam peter.
I agree, I think those are all quality opponents.Quote:
Originally Posted by palmerq
I also concur I think Haye and Povetkin are his best wins, along with Pulev.
We will have to agree to disagree as everytime you say I cant see....doesnt stand up toQuote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerI disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlimTraeI remember Lewis vs Grant was billed as 2BIG;D Lewis exposed that boy as 2fraudulent, so I concur.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
I also remember Rock Newman having Riddick Bowe throw the belt in the garbage can. As much as I like Riddick-- that was a hoe-ass move. I credit Lennox for that- How does Bowe not want to fight that man who beat him in the olympics?
Tyson would beat Bruce Seldon because he payed Lennox Lewis $ 4 million dollars September 1996 to 'step aside' correct? That is the buster of all hoe azz moves. especially considering that phantom punch Seldon got hit with....two knockdowns.
Akinwande was so scurred of Lennox he held him like they were slow dragging at prom night- till he got DQ'd.
And just like Wlad, Lennox got stopped by nobodies- McCall (Tyson's sparring partner) and Rahman who Maskaev beat his butt outta the ring. Jim Lampley: Rahman is LAYING RIGHT NEXT TO ME! RIGHT NEXT TO ME!
What separates Lennox from Wlad appears simple to me: Lennox has been in dog fights- and won.
Tyson decisioned Ruddock- Lewis destroyed him in 2. Bruno IMO was to Lennox what Brewster was to Wlad- both Lennox & Wlad were raw and didnt have years of Manny Steward's mentoring.
Mercer to Lewis IMO could be Sanders & Wlad. Not style wise, but digging deep down.
Lennox dug down deep, Wlad just fell down.
Golota had just schooled Bowe, but broke down mentally & DQ'd Going into that fight Golota's rep IMO was more solid than say an Ibrigamov or Povetkin for Wlad...Lennox destroyed that boy in one.
Briggs - strong fighter but suspect skills came out swingin for the fences and Lennox dismantled Briggs and landed Haye-friggin makers on Briggs.
Based on those fights and the ones not made, give me the opinion that Wlad wouldn't have hung with Lennox. Not a fact, its all speculation, as you said we will never know, so we just argue like we think we know how it woulda went down and I say Lennox beats Wlad's Muth#@%^! ass! ;D
What is fact: Wlad has ruled for a long time like Holmes and I really dont have too many good names to add to Larry Holmes either..
Lewis never fought an opponent like Sanders, he ducked ALL southpaws. And Sanders combination of qualities, dangerous in the early rounds was EXACTLY the juice necessary to catch a lazy Lewis off guard and KO him as well. I would say not the same stylistically, but this fight is analogous to Lewis's loss to McCall!
The Brewster fight was illegitimate in my book because Wladimir was diagnosed with, PROVEN to have a life-threatening condition immediately post-bout. That is why the big money never materialised for Brewster because everybody KNEW. Of course it was good fuel for American haters to still try to pass off to this very day as negative stigma. The Brewster fight was NOTHING like the Mercer battle for Lennox, which was a competitive fight for LEwis. Wladimir single sidedly bashed Brewsters brains out until he succumbed to illness right at the very end. Wladimir would NEVER be troubled by a boxer like Ray MErcer ever.
Shannon Briggs BREACHED Lennox and nearly got the drop on him! Again, I can't see Wladimir having any problems with Shannon.
I can't see Wladimir letting MAvrovic run around for 12 rounds.
I can't see Wladimir losing rounds to Holyfield.
The only guys LEnnox truly wasted, Botha, Ruddock, Grant and Golota- These guys are nothing more than humdrum opponents for Wladimir too.
To say that Wladimir could not hang with LEnnox doesn't stand up to facts because many lesser fighters did and many lesser fighters pushed LEnnox.
facts either. I have no problem knowing what you can't see. Its your perspective. Not the world's.
Wladimir DID have to dig down deep to beat Sam Peter and that was a crossroads fight at the time with Wlad seemingly on his way down and out of the division and Sam Peter on his way to the top.
I think people EASILY forget how everyone even Vitali wanted Wladimir to retire after the Brewster fight....and look at him now, each title defense since then has been a statement of defiance from Wlad. Really what other fighter has had the kind of ups and downs Wlad has had? Being the heir apparent to being the laughing stock of the division to being the 3rd longest reigning heavyweight champion of All-Time and still counting....who else has done that?
Nationality could also be at play. If Wlad was from a small town in USA, he'd be on several boxes of wheeties, doing Sprint commercials headlining all the talk shows.
But he is not American. Few fighters are adored by us. Unless he had the blitz style of Pacman or JCC...
@Max Power Stop making up stories Brewster was finished the second time they fought.
Lennox would force the fight with Wlad because he panics when anyone gets in close. Wlad would not take the punches his brother did. Just imagine that uppercut landing on Wlads chin.
Why do you post so much rubbish?
That's fair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlimTraeWe will have to agree to disagree as everytime you say I cant see....doesnt stand up toQuote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerI disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlimTraeI remember Lewis vs Grant was billed as 2BIG;D Lewis exposed that boy as 2fraudulent, so I concur.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
I also remember Rock Newman having Riddick Bowe throw the belt in the garbage can. As much as I like Riddick-- that was a hoe-ass move. I credit Lennox for that- How does Bowe not want to fight that man who beat him in the olympics?
Tyson would beat Bruce Seldon because he payed Lennox Lewis $ 4 million dollars September 1996 to 'step aside' correct? That is the buster of all hoe azz moves. especially considering that phantom punch Seldon got hit with....two knockdowns.
Akinwande was so scurred of Lennox he held him like they were slow dragging at prom night- till he got DQ'd.
And just like Wlad, Lennox got stopped by nobodies- McCall (Tyson's sparring partner) and Rahman who Maskaev beat his butt outta the ring. Jim Lampley: Rahman is LAYING RIGHT NEXT TO ME! RIGHT NEXT TO ME!
What separates Lennox from Wlad appears simple to me: Lennox has been in dog fights- and won.
Tyson decisioned Ruddock- Lewis destroyed him in 2. Bruno IMO was to Lennox what Brewster was to Wlad- both Lennox & Wlad were raw and didnt have years of Manny Steward's mentoring.
Mercer to Lewis IMO could be Sanders & Wlad. Not style wise, but digging deep down.
Lennox dug down deep, Wlad just fell down.
Golota had just schooled Bowe, but broke down mentally & DQ'd Going into that fight Golota's rep IMO was more solid than say an Ibrigamov or Povetkin for Wlad...Lennox destroyed that boy in one.
Briggs - strong fighter but suspect skills came out swingin for the fences and Lennox dismantled Briggs and landed Haye-friggin makers on Briggs.
Based on those fights and the ones not made, give me the opinion that Wlad wouldn't have hung with Lennox. Not a fact, its all speculation, as you said we will never know, so we just argue like we think we know how it woulda went down and I say Lennox beats Wlad's Muth#@%^! ass! ;D
What is fact: Wlad has ruled for a long time like Holmes and I really dont have too many good names to add to Larry Holmes either..
Lewis never fought an opponent like Sanders, he ducked ALL southpaws. And Sanders combination of qualities, dangerous in the early rounds was EXACTLY the juice necessary to catch a lazy Lewis off guard and KO him as well. I would say not the same stylistically, but this fight is analogous to Lewis's loss to McCall!
The Brewster fight was illegitimate in my book because Wladimir was diagnosed with, PROVEN to have a life-threatening condition immediately post-bout. That is why the big money never materialised for Brewster because everybody KNEW. Of course it was good fuel for American haters to still try to pass off to this very day as negative stigma. The Brewster fight was NOTHING like the Mercer battle for Lennox, which was a competitive fight for LEwis. Wladimir single sidedly bashed Brewsters brains out until he succumbed to illness right at the very end. Wladimir would NEVER be troubled by a boxer like Ray MErcer ever.
Shannon Briggs BREACHED Lennox and nearly got the drop on him! Again, I can't see Wladimir having any problems with Shannon.
I can't see Wladimir letting MAvrovic run around for 12 rounds.
I can't see Wladimir losing rounds to Holyfield.
The only guys LEnnox truly wasted, Botha, Ruddock, Grant and Golota- These guys are nothing more than humdrum opponents for Wladimir too.
To say that Wladimir could not hang with LEnnox doesn't stand up to facts because many lesser fighters did and many lesser fighters pushed LEnnox.
facts either. I have no problem knowing what you can't see. Its your perspective. Not the world's.
The only thing I will give Lennox is that he has been a better finisher of good opponents. Only Ray Austin got blown out by defense-oriented Wladimir (huggy bear for lack of better definition lol) whereas LEnnox blew out the 4 mentioned. Previous offense-oriented Wladimir was a good finisher too but he took little chances after Sanders to ensure victory and prevent any further upsets but at the expense of far less excitement.
The same attempts to crowd please from Lennox however are the things that also make him more vulnerable than Wladimir. If he chose to take such chances against Wladimir himself, I don't think Lennox would like the consequences so much.
I would expect Lennox vs Wladimir to be a very cautious and technical affair. Of extremely high level though.
All I can say to that, as you already know my position on basically everything by now, is that you are "slightly" overrating Lewis and Vitali here and "MASSIVELY" underrating Wladimir.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
So you have to make up stories to back up your own claims?Quote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerAll I can say to that, as you already know my position on basically everything by now, is that you are "slightly" overrating Lewis and Vitali here and "MASSIVELY" underrating Wladimir.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
I also think it would be rightfully placed in the chess thread. Wlad for sure is extremely intelligent in the ring.Quote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerThat's fair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlimTraeWe will have to agree to disagree as everytime you say I cant see....doesnt stand up toQuote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerI disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlimTraeI remember Lewis vs Grant was billed as 2BIG;D Lewis exposed that boy as 2fraudulent, so I concur.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
I also remember Rock Newman having Riddick Bowe throw the belt in the garbage can. As much as I like Riddick-- that was a hoe-ass move. I credit Lennox for that- How does Bowe not want to fight that man who beat him in the olympics?
Tyson would beat Bruce Seldon because he payed Lennox Lewis $ 4 million dollars September 1996 to 'step aside' correct? That is the buster of all hoe azz moves. especially considering that phantom punch Seldon got hit with....two knockdowns.
Akinwande was so scurred of Lennox he held him like they were slow dragging at prom night- till he got DQ'd.
And just like Wlad, Lennox got stopped by nobodies- McCall (Tyson's sparring partner) and Rahman who Maskaev beat his butt outta the ring. Jim Lampley: Rahman is LAYING RIGHT NEXT TO ME! RIGHT NEXT TO ME!
What separates Lennox from Wlad appears simple to me: Lennox has been in dog fights- and won.
Tyson decisioned Ruddock- Lewis destroyed him in 2. Bruno IMO was to Lennox what Brewster was to Wlad- both Lennox & Wlad were raw and didnt have years of Manny Steward's mentoring.
Mercer to Lewis IMO could be Sanders & Wlad. Not style wise, but digging deep down.
Lennox dug down deep, Wlad just fell down.
Golota had just schooled Bowe, but broke down mentally & DQ'd Going into that fight Golota's rep IMO was more solid than say an Ibrigamov or Povetkin for Wlad...Lennox destroyed that boy in one.
Briggs - strong fighter but suspect skills came out swingin for the fences and Lennox dismantled Briggs and landed Haye-friggin makers on Briggs.
Based on those fights and the ones not made, give me the opinion that Wlad wouldn't have hung with Lennox. Not a fact, its all speculation, as you said we will never know, so we just argue like we think we know how it woulda went down and I say Lennox beats Wlad's Muth#@%^! ass! ;D
What is fact: Wlad has ruled for a long time like Holmes and I really dont have too many good names to add to Larry Holmes either..
Lewis never fought an opponent like Sanders, he ducked ALL southpaws. And Sanders combination of qualities, dangerous in the early rounds was EXACTLY the juice necessary to catch a lazy Lewis off guard and KO him as well. I would say not the same stylistically, but this fight is analogous to Lewis's loss to McCall!
The Brewster fight was illegitimate in my book because Wladimir was diagnosed with, PROVEN to have a life-threatening condition immediately post-bout. That is why the big money never materialised for Brewster because everybody KNEW. Of course it was good fuel for American haters to still try to pass off to this very day as negative stigma. The Brewster fight was NOTHING like the Mercer battle for Lennox, which was a competitive fight for LEwis. Wladimir single sidedly bashed Brewsters brains out until he succumbed to illness right at the very end. Wladimir would NEVER be troubled by a boxer like Ray MErcer ever.
Shannon Briggs BREACHED Lennox and nearly got the drop on him! Again, I can't see Wladimir having any problems with Shannon.
I can't see Wladimir letting MAvrovic run around for 12 rounds.
I can't see Wladimir losing rounds to Holyfield.
The only guys LEnnox truly wasted, Botha, Ruddock, Grant and Golota- These guys are nothing more than humdrum opponents for Wladimir too.
To say that Wladimir could not hang with LEnnox doesn't stand up to facts because many lesser fighters did and many lesser fighters pushed LEnnox.
facts either. I have no problem knowing what you can't see. Its your perspective. Not the world's.
The only thing I will give Lennox is that he has been a better finisher of good opponents. Only Ray Austin got blown out by defense-oriented Wladimir (huggy bear for lack of better definition lol) whereas LEnnox blew out the 4 mentioned. Previous offense-oriented Wladimir was a good finisher too but he took little chances after Sanders to ensure victory and prevent any further upsets but at the expense of far less excitement.
The same attempts to crowd please from Lennox however are the things that also make him more vulnerable than Wladimir. If he chose to take such chances against Wladimir himself, I don't think Lennox would like the consequences so much.
I would expect Lennox vs Wladimir to be a very cautious and technical affair. Of extremely high level though.
So we are clear, I am a huge fan of both brothers, but id prefer to argue my heart out on who Wlad can/will fight, but only speculate on mythical matchups.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterSo you have to make up stories to back up your own claims?Quote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerAll I can say to that, as you already know my position on basically everything by now, is that you are "slightly" overrating Lewis and Vitali here and "MASSIVELY" underrating Wladimir.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Why not?
After all.... he uncovered the massive scam where different fighters collaborated to exaggerate Ernie Shavers' punching power in order to pump up their own weak resumes. Ali's record would be worthless had he not schemed with other fighters to claim that Shavers was the hardest they'd ever been punched.
There's gotta be some sort of prize for that type of incisive analysis.
Either that or he just pulls outrageous claims out of his ass to discredit the previous HW generations and overly defend Wlad. But hey........ what do I know?
;)
Lennox would absolutely destroy Wlad , there is no argument there,he is not in same league.
I never make up stories. I just "educate" the uneducated and sometimes am the one who ends up being educated myself lolQuote:
Originally Posted by MasterSo you have to make up stories to back up your own claims?Quote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerAll I can say to that, as you already know my position on basically everything by now, is that you are "slightly" overrating Lewis and Vitali here and "MASSIVELY" underrating Wladimir.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Yeah, just like he destroyed Zeilko Mavrovic.Quote:
Originally Posted by roberto duran legend
I have no issues with the likes of Mariusz Wach because if that's the best we have around then that ain't Wlads fault. Not only that, Wach was big and did pose a threat, In fact he caught Wlad and had him worried for a sec in that fight.
========================
My Issue is with people like Francesco Pianeta who no one had heard of
-Lets take a look at that statement for a second.
So "no one had heard of" Francesco Pianeta yet he is fighting for 4 heavyweight world titles? CLEARLY an attempt to just make a little money with no risk. Now love or hate Mayweather, he would never fight someone unheard of just to make a little cash when he can fight high ranked fighters and make a killing.
He posed absolutely no threat!
-How can you sell a fight like this? Wlad toyed with him for 6 rounds and almost as if he decided he was bored, turned on and stopped him like he could have done it with his first punch!
Someone said to me that with low ranked fights (and some high ones) some fighters can charge a decent amount of $£$£$£ per commercial/advert. So if Wlads promotion had this, it benefits Wlad more to take the fight to at least the middle rounds.
Hence why Wlad decided 6 rounds was enough and just sparked him out.
NOW - I am not sure how true the advert/commercial thing is, but it is an interesting thought.
Interesting thought and interesting post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendettos
I don't think Pianeta is a thrashing machine at all.
But Pianeta, as coddled as he might have been, was very big and strong. He always has a punchers chance vs Wladimir, however slight.
He WAS a credible opponent, you don't go around 30 fights unbeaten if you are not a decent boxer.
If you hadn't heard of him that's fine. There were obviously many who had.
If your trying to say that a guy like Pianeta...
THIS guy...
http://www.badculture.net/wp-content/uploads/wlad1.jpg
Is one of Wladimir Klitschko's shittest opponents, what that really means is that Wladimir Klitchko's resume must really be o good that it blows all other resumes completely out of the water.
When the fight was announced I created a thread, something like "who the fuck is Francesco Pianeta" and I can't remember anyone saying that they knew of him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerInteresting thought and interesting post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendettos
I don't think Pianeta is a thrashing machine at all.
But Pianeta, as coddled as he might have been, was very big and strong. He always has a punchers chance vs Wladimir, however slight.
He WAS a credible opponent, you don't go around 30 fights unbeaten if you are not a decent boxer.
If you hadn't heard of him that's fine. There were obviously many who had.
If your trying to say that a guy like Pianeta...
THIS guy...
http://www.badculture.net/wp-content/uploads/wlad1.jpg
Is one of Wladimir Klitschko's shittest opponents, what that really means is that Wladimir Klitchko's resume must really be o good that it blows all other resumes completely out of the water.
30 fights is fuck all, when they tried to sell it all they had was a win over a 47 year old Oliver McCall.
His second best win was against 44 year old Frans Botha! In 2009 he beat Matt Skelton who was 42.
IN FACT - If you look through like the 7 guys he fought before Wlad most of them are in their 40's and late 30's.
Lets not fuck about, looking good with pecks and a six pack doesn't mean you can box. Pianeta was 28-0-1 and had not had a single test in his career.
He was however lick your lips good for Wladimir Klitschko. He was unbeaten, in shape, had a win over a name (regardless how old).
It's ridiculous that he was even considered to be in the same arena as Wlad, when his best win was against McCall who was ranked 100+ in the world at the time.
Yes, Francesco Pianeta did not fight a high level of opposition to generate his padded record. I know this. The best opponents were well past prime.Quote:
Originally Posted by VendettosWhen the fight was announced I created a thread, something like "who the fuck is Francesco Pianeta" and I can't remember anyone saying that they knew of him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerInteresting thought and interesting post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendettos
I don't think Pianeta is a thrashing machine at all.
But Pianeta, as coddled as he might have been, was very big and strong. He always has a punchers chance vs Wladimir, however slight.
He WAS a credible opponent, you don't go around 30 fights unbeaten if you are not a decent boxer.
If you hadn't heard of him that's fine. There were obviously many who had.
If your trying to say that a guy like Pianeta...
THIS guy...
http://www.badculture.net/wp-content/uploads/wlad1.jpg
Is one of Wladimir Klitschko's shittest opponents, what that really means is that Wladimir Klitchko's resume must really be o good that it blows all other resumes completely out of the water.
30 fights is fuck all, when they tried to sell it all they had was a win over a 47 year old Oliver McCall.
His second best win was against 44 year old Frans Botha! In 2009 he beat Matt Skelton who was 42.
IN FACT - If you look through like the 7 guys he fought before Wlad most of them are in their 40's and late 30's.
Lets not fuck about, looking good with pecks and a six pack doesn't mean you can box. Pianeta was 28-0-1 and had not had a single test in his career.
He was however lick your lips good for Wladimir Klitschko. He was unbeaten, in shape, had a win over a name (regardless how old).
It's ridiculous that he was even considered to be in the same arena as Wlad, when his best win was against McCall who was ranked 100+ in the world at the time.
But your comment trying to degrade Wlad's resume is off base, your claim "he was a good opponent for Wlaidmir though" is in direct conflict with your opening one "he did not belong in the same ring with Wlad".
So which is it? LOL You cannot have it both ways!
I will tell you what Pianeta was, he was a stay busy opponent, certainly not among Wladimir's best wins and was never promoted to be any kind of real threat. He got given an opportunity pure and simple and both made some money.
The thing is, Pianeta, despite his shortcomings, was a DECENT opponent!
He was STILL big and strong and he was STILL an unbeaten opponent.
No champion boxer in the past has ever faced the top competition ALL of the time, so why hold Wladimir to this standard exclusively?
If a guy like Pianeta is the example of a stay busy fight, I am very impressed.
So what if he was undefeated. the division is devoid of talent and it is easy to get a title shot by fighting nobody. It is truly awful.
I feel that you are clutching at straws now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerYes, Francesco Pianeta did not fight a high level of opposition to generate his padded record. I know this. The best opponents were well past prime.Quote:
Originally Posted by VendettosWhen the fight was announced I created a thread, something like "who the fuck is Francesco Pianeta" and I can't remember anyone saying that they knew of him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerInteresting thought and interesting post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendettos
I don't think Pianeta is a thrashing machine at all.
But Pianeta, as coddled as he might have been, was very big and strong. He always has a punchers chance vs Wladimir, however slight.
He WAS a credible opponent, you don't go around 30 fights unbeaten if you are not a decent boxer.
If you hadn't heard of him that's fine. There were obviously many who had.
If your trying to say that a guy like Pianeta...
THIS guy...
http://www.badculture.net/wp-content/uploads/wlad1.jpg
Is one of Wladimir Klitschko's shittest opponents, what that really means is that Wladimir Klitchko's resume must really be o good that it blows all other resumes completely out of the water.
30 fights is fuck all, when they tried to sell it all they had was a win over a 47 year old Oliver McCall.
His second best win was against 44 year old Frans Botha! In 2009 he beat Matt Skelton who was 42.
IN FACT - If you look through like the 7 guys he fought before Wlad most of them are in their 40's and late 30's.
Lets not fuck about, looking good with pecks and a six pack doesn't mean you can box. Pianeta was 28-0-1 and had not had a single test in his career.
He was however lick your lips good for Wladimir Klitschko. He was unbeaten, in shape, had a win over a name (regardless how old).
It's ridiculous that he was even considered to be in the same arena as Wlad, when his best win was against McCall who was ranked 100+ in the world at the time.
But your comment trying to degrade Wlad's resume is off base, your claim "he was a good opponent for Wlaidmir though" is in direct conflict with your opening one "he did not belong in the same ring with Wlad".
So which is it? LOL You cannot have it both ways!
I will tell you what Pianeta was, he was a stay busy opponent, certainly not among Wladimir's best wins and was never promoted to be any kind of real threat. He got given an opportunity pure and simple and both made some money.
The thing is, Pianeta, despite his shortcomings, was a DECENT opponent!
He was STILL big and strong and he was STILL an unbeaten opponent.
No champion boxer in the past has ever faced the top competition ALL of the time, so why hold Wladimir to this standard exclusively?
If a guy like Pianeta is the example of a stay busy fight, I am very impressed.
You know exactly what I meant, however the level of idiocy that thrives on this forum never stops amazing me so I'll break it down to you are like a child.
1 - For Wlads personal wealth, Pianeta was perfect, by being undefeated and having beaten Oliver McCall (again old) he had a way of selling a fight with an unknown fighter.
2 - For HW boxing he was a joke of an opponent for the champ and did not belong in the ring with Wlad.
Now I hate being harsh with people but there is no way you can think that Wladimir Klitschko, undefeated in like a decade, holding 4 world titles (3 majors), coming off the back of a decent win against a fighter who is at least a known contender at world level and can pick any fighter he wants to fight.... Picks Pianeta....?
It's ridiculous that he doesn't always aim to fight the top fighters in the division.
I think Wlads opponents have been discussed enough previously, the undiscussed problem is that there was more than one heavy weight champion which watered down every single contender, and all a top twenty fighter had to do was wait a year for a payday against either brother.
Well that was really objective @Master, I am stunned by your insight! LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
Atleast Pianeta got his shot by beating aged former champs and WINNING fights.
Let's now forget how previous champs opponents got their shots, by beating a series of ACTUAL bums and sometimes by LOSING fights! And these were often regarded as credible opponents, not stay busy fights like Pianeta!
What did he do when he fought Wlad? awful effort.Quote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerWell that was really objective @Master, I am stunned by your insight! LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
Atleast Pianeta got his shot by beating aged former champs and WINNING fights.
Let's now forget how previous champs opponents got their shots, by beating a series of ACTUAL bums and sometimes by LOSING fights! And these were often regarded as credible opponents, not stay busy fights like Pianeta!
He has basically done exactly that.Quote:
Originally Posted by VendettosI feel that you are clutching at straws now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerYes, Francesco Pianeta did not fight a high level of opposition to generate his padded record. I know this. The best opponents were well past prime.Quote:
Originally Posted by VendettosWhen the fight was announced I created a thread, something like "who the fuck is Francesco Pianeta" and I can't remember anyone saying that they knew of him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerInteresting thought and interesting post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendettos
I don't think Pianeta is a thrashing machine at all.
But Pianeta, as coddled as he might have been, was very big and strong. He always has a punchers chance vs Wladimir, however slight.
He WAS a credible opponent, you don't go around 30 fights unbeaten if you are not a decent boxer.
If you hadn't heard of him that's fine. There were obviously many who had.
If your trying to say that a guy like Pianeta...
THIS guy...
http://www.badculture.net/wp-content/uploads/wlad1.jpg
Is one of Wladimir Klitschko's shittest opponents, what that really means is that Wladimir Klitchko's resume must really be o good that it blows all other resumes completely out of the water.
30 fights is fuck all, when they tried to sell it all they had was a win over a 47 year old Oliver McCall.
His second best win was against 44 year old Frans Botha! In 2009 he beat Matt Skelton who was 42.
IN FACT - If you look through like the 7 guys he fought before Wlad most of them are in their 40's and late 30's.
Lets not fuck about, looking good with pecks and a six pack doesn't mean you can box. Pianeta was 28-0-1 and had not had a single test in his career.
He was however lick your lips good for Wladimir Klitschko. He was unbeaten, in shape, had a win over a name (regardless how old).
It's ridiculous that he was even considered to be in the same arena as Wlad, when his best win was against McCall who was ranked 100+ in the world at the time.
But your comment trying to degrade Wlad's resume is off base, your claim "he was a good opponent for Wlaidmir though" is in direct conflict with your opening one "he did not belong in the same ring with Wlad".
So which is it? LOL You cannot have it both ways!
I will tell you what Pianeta was, he was a stay busy opponent, certainly not among Wladimir's best wins and was never promoted to be any kind of real threat. He got given an opportunity pure and simple and both made some money.
The thing is, Pianeta, despite his shortcomings, was a DECENT opponent!
He was STILL big and strong and he was STILL an unbeaten opponent.
No champion boxer in the past has ever faced the top competition ALL of the time, so why hold Wladimir to this standard exclusively?
If a guy like Pianeta is the example of a stay busy fight, I am very impressed.
You know exactly what I meant, however the level of idiocy that thrives on this forum never stops amazing me so I'll break it down to you are like a child.
1 - For Wlads personal wealth, Pianeta was perfect, by being undefeated and having beaten Oliver McCall (again old) he had a way of selling a fight with an unknown fighter.
2 - For HW boxing he was a joke of an opponent for the champ and did not belong in the ring with Wlad.
Now I hate being harsh with people but there is no way you can think that Wladimir Klitschko, undefeated in like a decade, holding 4 world titles (3 majors), coming off the back of a decent win against a fighter who is at least a known contender at world level and can pick any fighter he wants to fight.... Picks Pianeta....?
It's ridiculous that he doesn't always aim to fight the top fighters in the division.
- Nobody has fought and beat MORE good 200+ HW's than Wladimir ever,
- Taking on Pianeta was NO DIFFERENT than Lennox Lewis taking on unbeaten Mavrovic which "nobody heard of previously".
Wladimir has subsequently beaten Pulev and Povetkin and has cleaned out the division many times. Please don't try to sell me that Wladimir is avoiding top fighters.
The answer? He fought Wlaidmir Klitschko.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Nobody is going to look very good fighting Wladimir.
Just trying to hit the guy requires a good effort.
Wow...The champ has ducked not 1 contender unlike some of the lower division p4p champs have. He is doing what a champion should be doing and that is defending against whoever is put in front of him. The better question is what would the heavyweight division look like if the brothers did not exist? I think we might have seen Haye vs Peter for unification. But off the top of my head is Haye, Peter, Rahman, Brewster, Byrd and the 1 handed victory over Austin. Wlad beats Marciano and his entire record of opponents.
OTNB land..
Where Pianeta, Mormeck and LEapai stay busy fights are testament of shame to the champion for beating, but where guys like Ernie Terrell and Alfredo Evangelista were "quality" opponents for a champ?
LOL
ATG heavyweight champions do not get knocked down and out by bums either. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Power
ATG Wladimir got knocked down and out by a bummy PUNCHER who weighed 250lbs and was a mountain of muscle stronger than a piece of iron. A fight in which he was dominantly and 1 sidedly bashed this opponent to smitherines until he gassed out, the opponent which only survived long enough because he had among the hardest chins of all time.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterATG heavyweight champions do not get knocked down and out by bums either. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Power
I call this a "fluke".
Conversely, Muhammad Ali WAS knocked down by a 180lb bum, and some would say knocked out as well, considering his trainer tore the glove open admittedly more than it already was, gave his man smelling salts and conveniently delayed the break for 40 seconds more than it should have been. Imagine if Wladimir Klitschko was ALLOWED to fight a 180lb bum and this happened to him and he survived in this manner?
You follow? ;)
Conversely, Muhammad Ali was not fluke KD'd, but was nevertheless outboxed soundly by a sub 200 cruiser, 6 fight green, 26-17 career bum. I would call this no fluke. I would call this being out-classed by a bum which is WAY worse than a fluke KO by a guy who the champ is otherwise obviously better than!
You can write a lot of gay nonsense if you want about Brewster being PUNCHER, 250lbs, mountain of muscle, piece of iron and the hardest chins of all time to justify the loss. :)
What about the other 2? :D
I was talking about Puritty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Lamon Brewster was no bum at all.
But since you brought him up, it further illustrates the issue with Cooper.
Muhummad Ali's controversial stunt against lightHW, bum record Cooper goes swept under the rug, no DQ, NC or KO loss for Ali. Wladimir is PROVEN to be suffering from a life threatening illness against a 230lb boxer with a GOOD record and yet the decision is not changed to NC?
It's not that I think either result should have been changed at all, but always is the Cooper thing swept away as if it never happened and the Brewster thing is always brought back up despite being debunked for 10 years now.
Double standards.
Ah bless! Let's not start crying now.
Why should Wlads result be changed, he gassed out. It happened to Haye, Nigel Benn and Foreman due to inexperience.
Ali just got knocked down and learnt not to allow it to happen again.
See the difference between a truly great fighter and a very good one. :)