Tv time lines with a dash of politics which is also redundant if you think about it lolQuote:
Originally Posted by SlimTrae
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Tv time lines with a dash of politics which is also redundant if you think about it lolQuote:
Originally Posted by SlimTrae
I dunno, I can't think of too many fights where rounds 13-15 werent tell-all rounds. I'm sure Hearns would agree with you as it related to his first fight with Ray.Quote:
Originally Posted by beenKOed
15! 15! We want 15!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvoqkVfnvnM
Rounds 13-15 the REAL championship rounds!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZcya05hr9E
Maybe TKO is right, it would be a waste of time to watch today's nutritioned trained fighters go 15 rounds. They got the pills, needles to bulk up, but missing mas macho!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBXTa1gvOLM
The days of the 15rounders- when only Real Men applied for the job!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgMQ5gdbXKc R.I.P The GREAT Salvador Sanchez vs the man who would become the "PROFESSOR" Azumah Nelson, damn those were the days!
Heck, yesteryear's fighters knew how to go for the kill-when they were tired, hurt and questioning if they could do more- look at Pryor get rejuvenated in round 14 when he sees the Great ETM Alexis Arguello hurt. This is what champions do: they find the other gear. That last drop of fuel in the tank. R.I.P Alexis Arguello. Rounds 13-15 were & STILL ARE THE CHAMPIONSHIP ROUNDS! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REWMrvdsw7o
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by beenKOed
Basically any fight that went longer than 12 rounds in the old days was a sign of failure.
And any stoppage victory scored in Round 13 plus was nearly always due to nothing more than fatigue and stamina management. I basically disregard these stoppages most of the time when making comparisons.
It's interesting to note that when you look at the boxers with the MOST 13+ round fights under their belt, nearly all of them were featherfists!
what a wheelbarrow of dung. 13-15 has brought us the most dramatic rounds thruout history. All you young asses have ADD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerAgreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by beenKOed
Basically any fight that went longer than 12 rounds in the old days was a sign of failure.
And any stoppage victory scored in Round 13 plus was nearly always due to nothing more than fatigue and stamina management. I basically disregard these stoppages most of the time when making comparisons.
It's interesting to note that when you look at the boxers with the MOST 13+ round fights under their belt, nearly all of them were featherfists!
@brocktonblockbust
It's a real toss up for me as to what amounts to more excitement.
Round 13-15 of an olden days fight...
Or the equivalent 10 minutes of championship lawn bowls.
@maxpower did you see 15 in norton-holmes? ali-frazier 1? etc
Round 15 of Frazier/Ali featured the supposedly "iron chinned" Ali getting knocked down by featherfist handicapped dwarf Frazier, and both guys so utterly exhausted they were in an embrace complete with arm holding & head pushing for almost precisely 50% of the round.Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
As for Holmes vs Norton, I'll even provide the round as example.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IupyEYB-27c
- Sluggish performance,
- Slow
- Completely sapped of energy and strength.
- Absence of any appreciable skill level or sharpness
- Stand right in front of each other slugging it out, no foot, body or head movement like the punch bags of earlier eras.
There is absolutely no way that this can be confused with a modern 12 round fight!
And this is not to say that Holmes and even Norton were ALWAYS like this, it's simply that any stoppages or fight changing events that happened in those later rounds were largely due to nothing more than gas related or pacing reasons, not boxing performance.
When comparing fights from modern eras and past ones, it's necessary to delete rounds 13-15 for a couple of basic reasons.
If they were to fight today, they wouldn't have been able to KO or beat the opponent.
And even more profoundly, 15 round fights is actually an unfair advantage for the nostalgic boxers!
Conventional nostalgic argument goes "Past boxers were 15 rounders, modern boxers couldn't go 15 rounds anymore"
Max Power argument goes "If modern boxers were ALLOWED to box more rounds, modern boxers would have EVEN HIGHER KOratio's (more knockouts) than they already do!
How can you not see that was a great round by 2 great fighters who put it all on the line at the highest level?
Max the moron.
It was a "competitive" round. That is what made it great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
There is a big difference between a competitive round with action and a great display of boxing prowess.
The big question I have is "what is an apparently great champion like Holmes doing in the 15th round with a guy like Norton in the first place!"
The story was that Holmes was injured, think right bicep, but because this was his big title shot which he may never get again he went through with the fight. This was 15 rounds! Norton was a seasoned campaigner and Holmes was a relative novice who became a great champion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerIt was a "competitive" round. That is what made it great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
There is a big difference between a competitive round with action and a great display of boxing prowess.
The big question I have is "what is an apparently great champion like Holmes doing in the 15th round with a guy like Norton in the first place!"
What is not to understand?
max the whole point is that it was exciting to watch and the audience was on the edge of its seat in both of those fights during that 15th round. Both guys being exhausted and still giving it all they had and landing bombs is certainly what boxing is all about at least in part isn't it.
Yeah ok I suppose you guys are both right on those points, that definitely puts it into perspective @Master and even resonates with my own 101 theory.
And @brocktonblockbust that is correct too. Let's not pretend as if the 12th rounds of many modern fights weren't just as exciting for those reasons too.
I don't have anything particularly against 15 round fights, I just think the longer the fights go for in general, the weaker the performance overall and the weaker the boxers. I wouldn't want to go back to 15, 10-12 rounds seems really optimal to me.
If the 12th round winds up a draw, I am warm to the concept of the sudden death "13th round" as a tie breaker.
And the concept that 12 round fighters couldn't go 15 rounds is one of the most ridiculous arguments I've heard.
Max I will tend to agree with you on that point about how these modern day boxers probably not perform too well from 13 to 15. I'm not saying that they are not conditioned well enough to do so but what I am saying is that I do not think that their performance would increase in any way through those championship rounds.
No I would imagine their performance would be affected in a common sense fashion.Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
If they fought hard the whole fight, their performance in the later rounds would deteriorate in the later rounds also.
If they conserved energy early, they may be able to have energetic bursts and better acumen later.
You might not be using such arguments like they aren't conditioned enough but I assure you there are many out there who do use such arguments.
guys like Chris Arreola I don't think could fight 15 rounds. Even Bermain Stivyrne look completely exhausted after 8 or 9....never look so good beyond 8 rounds either and Mike Tyson certainly petered out after eight or nine rounds himself. Gone are the days or fighters could fight 15 solid rounds. Let's take a look at Rocky Marciano that monster just kept getting stronger and stronger the more rounds he fought. I think Rocky could probably fight 20 or 25 rounds no problem
ANY boxer can go ANY number of rounds depending on how well they pace themselves and how hard their opponent pushes the pace on them. Modern opponents are heavier and more explosive and would wear out a nostalgic boxer much faster. Conversely though a modern more heavier boxer must pace themselves more than their older counterparts else they will gas more easily also.Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
Bigger is better in boxing. Explosiveness is better in boxing, so long as energy conservatism is maintained for the number of rounds.
Stivernes workrate is so low he could easily make 15 rounds, the single Wilder fight where he looked exhausted he got beaten up for 12 rounds and suffered from rhabdomyolysis and dehydration and STILL survived.
And the Arreola comment was even more ridiculous. The HW with one of the best gas tanks in HW boxing today, able to at 240lbs push one of the hardest paces for 12 rounds on his opponents, wouldn't be able to scratch out an extra few? No way LOL
3 more rounds show who the real champion is and I think fighters like Floyd would love it.
hell yeah three more rounds to show off his ballerina skillsQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
Yes I could see how Mayweather would benefit from more rounds.
yes he could show off those twinkle toes for an extra 9 nauseating minutesQuote:
Originally Posted by Max Power
Please stop..Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbustyes he could show off those twinkle toes for an extra 9 nauseating minutesQuote:
Originally Posted by Max Power
You just convinced me about the merits of those rounds being exciting.
And now the thought of watching 3 more rounds of Floyd calls it all into question again LOL
not calling it into question just realizing that's a fighter like Floyd would stink the place out even worse than he already stinks it out in 12 roundsQuote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerPlease stop..Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbustyes he could show off those twinkle toes for an extra 9 nauseating minutesQuote:
Originally Posted by Max Power
You just convinced me about the merits of those rounds being exciting.
And now the thought of watching 3 more rounds of Floyd calls it all into question again LOL
Hagler loved 15 rounds, I bet not many would look forward to 15 ROUND BEATING, off Marvin
that extra 9 minutes off hell, I loved 15 round fights.:)
yeah the championship rounds throughout history are what made boxing so spectacular. the only reason I would support going down to 12 roun's is for the fighter's safety.
Sir, three more rounds is a waste of my valuable and limited time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Please abandon this silly obsession you have with 13 thru 15, I'd take it as a personal favor and a great worry would be lifted from my shoulders. Please Sir, my time is limited!
im shocked how many people vote for 12 rounds - thought it would be 99 percent for 15
Im for 15 myself - think it would also eliminate alot of the older guys - would love to see how klitscho/hopkins etc all do over 15 rounds - not that they couldn't - more so in klitschos case as he's usually beating on them- but would be interesting to see.
15 rounds for championship fights :D
Modern opponents are heavier and more explosive and would wear out a nostalgic boxer much faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbusthell yeah three more rounds to show off his ballerina skillsQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
Notice this statement can only be made to one division thus the knowledge here is :7 weight class-deficient. Unless we look at the extra 10 divisions added on in the past 20 or so years.
Oh, wait a modern Welterweight is much more lean in muscle mass, with his general nutrition centers at your local shopping mall. While those old Neanderthal Welterweight just aren't as toned, they don't have the modern techniques, the modern whey protein and creatine.
Obviously a 1960's MW would never compare with a modern day MW. Today's MW are totally bigger, stronger, smarter and more uh...athletic. Yeah that's it! More uh, athletic.
With that being said; the Jetsons' Astro would slaughter the Flintstones Dino. Dino is prehistoric, Astro is a scientific canine.
Well Slim, you actually did answer your own question here.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlimTraeModern opponents are heavier and more explosive and would wear out a nostalgic boxer much faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbusthell yeah three more rounds to show off his ballerina skillsQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
Notice this statement can only be made to one division thus the knowledge here is :7 weight class-deficient. Unless we look at the extra 10 divisions added on in the past 20 or so years.
Oh, wait a modern Welterweight is much more lean in muscle mass, with his general nutrition centers at your local shopping mall. While those old Neanderthal Welterweight just aren't as toned, they don't have the modern techniques, the modern whey protein and creatine.
Obviously a 1960's MW would never compare with a modern day MW. Today's MW are totally bigger, stronger, smarter and more uh...athletic. Yeah that's it! More uh, athletic.
With that being said; the Jetsons' Astro would slaughter the Flintstones Dino. Dino is prehistoric, Astro is a scientific canine.
A MW today IS approximately 15lbs heavier on fight night AND much leaner too so all up we're talking a difference of about 25lbs or 2 or 3 divisions.
Even if we completely disregard weight when discussing limited divisions and strictly compare fighters cross eras who are the same size on fight night, the performance of the modern fighters over 12 rounds is FAR more explosive than before to the point it isn't debatable.
12 rounds is simply a superior figure for a boxing match over 15 beyond any doubt.
The ONLY thing relevant is that championship level fights are long enough for tactical boxing plans to play out (like wearing down the body etc), for which purpose, 12 rounds is AMPLE long enough.
Other than that, the longer a fight goes for, the more it is simply an endurance and a pacing game and the less it is an explosive event. Longer=weaker.
Only the Facebook generation could have a problem with 15 round fights. 'My attention span just can't take it!'. Please. :rolleyes:
here's 1 then for Facebook bwaha
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6kSOoKAVOI
LOL Yeah, says the old boy on an online boxing forum!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf
2 different things there, one is a decorum/behavioral simulation and the other is a synaptic transmission.Quote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerLOL Yeah, says the old boy on an online boxing forum!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf
I will have you know that my average post length is 182 words long. Twitter cannot handle me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerLOL Yeah, says the old boy on an online boxing forum!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf
not only that Miles old chap but your average syllabic suggestion per word is "4". Stellar.Quote:
Originally Posted by GandalfI will have you know that my average post length is 182 words long. Twitter cannot handle me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerLOL Yeah, says the old boy on an online boxing forum!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf