Ward V Barrera

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Originally Posted by Freedom

Who was more impressive today: Kell Brook or Andre Ward?

Ward beat a fringe contender IBF mandatory by UD.

Brook beat a fringe contender IBF mandatory by KO 2.

Sullivan Barrera: Boxrec #23 at 175 going into the fight.
Kevin Bizier: Boxrec #20 at 147 going into the fight.

Barrera is not on ANY credible top ten 175 list I've seen (Ring, Transnational, etc), but many are hyping him as a big win for Ward.

Bizier age 31 has faced slightly better competition as a pro and is younger than Barrera, who is 34.

Also take into consideration Ward resorted to illegal tactics (hitting after the bell, holding, and a deliberate low blow thrown with bad intentions). Brook did not need to foul.

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Ward was more impressive and by a long shot. What do you use rankings for? They don't prove anything factual most of the time. Look I dont like Ward anymore then you do but at least try to appear objective if you find it impossible where he is concerned.

Ranking are thrown around like like ribbons and trophies at a grade 6 track meet. You dont need some random number to tell the difference in quality between Bizier and Barrera. The eye test is sufficient. Bizier would never make it out of the British domestic scene. Barrera would most likely dominate it. Brook has not faced anyone near Barreras pedigree. He does not have the same as Rigo or Loma because he did lose about 25 in close to 300 fights as an amateur but he's miles ahead of Bizier.

I'd love to somehow blame Ward for this now phantom bad showing but the trouble is I watched the fight and did so with preconceived beliefs that I'd find something. When I learned Caiz was the ref I damn near expected something but he got on Wards case more then he did Barrera's. Ward walked Barrera like a leash trained dog. Barrera could not get to him. We can put the fight up in this thread and count the number of times Barrera makes contact above the shoulders.

I cant remember who said it in the BN studio but he referred to Ward as having a "clock face"
I paused for a sec and pondered and figured it was a brilliant way to describe part of what Ward does. Ward also used that shoulder roll as good as Floyd. Showed incredible foot work and had the pressure fighter on his back foot for a good portion of the fight. Barrera also looked about 20 pounds heavier and fought about 60 pounds slower. The speed difference was almost palatable.
He fought a controlled almost stoic like fight and what many find boring these days I find fascinating. That is, pugilism skills on full display. He made quite a statement in my mind completely shutting out a guy like Barrera after really doing nothing for 5 years.

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Originally Posted by p4pking

Lol. You had no problem calling Barrera a good fighter with a chance to beat Ward, why must you be such a nancy after the fact? It's just boxing, try and be less emotionally attached:p

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No, I said I was 100% sure Ward would win.

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100% certain Ward will be awarded the win.

Not certain how, possibly Ward by UD.

Or, Barrera may be cut by a deliberate head butt & Ward's shady home ref calls it "accidental" and Ward wins by TD (or says it was caused by a punch, then Ward wins by TKO).

"Everyone has a plan until they get clinched, clamped, held and headbutted" - Andre Ward

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/webroot/a.../3234236_o.gif

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I was wrong about just one thing: turns out they had an HONEST ref who stopped Ward from using deliberate head butts and deducted him a point for his low blow.

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Originally Posted by chris6878

Ward gave dude a master class. A fucking shout out and all you say was a accidental low blow, one punch after the bell, and holding (which they both did).

Fuck outta here. Ward took dude to school.

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The HBO commentators praised Andre Ward for edging rounds for a 12 round UD...

... yet they bashed and ridiculed Dmitry Mikhaylenko for dominating all rounds for a 10 round UD against Karim Mayfield, an elusive opponent who had never been stopped. They were disappointed and said "he should have made a statement with a KO".

They shower praise, hype and unconditional love on the boring prima donna Ward for some reason, why do you think they do this?

Getting a KO doesn't mean a better win. Ward has never had much power and just doesn't knock out opponents. Blowing someone out in two rounds usually means that the opponent was terrible. I don't think Brook would have KO'd someone of barerras caliber in two rounds.

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Originally Posted by Freedom

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Originally Posted by chris6878

Ward gave dude a master class. A fucking shout out and all you say was a accidental low blow, one punch after the bell, and holding (which they both did).

Fuck outta here. Ward took dude to school.

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The HBO commentators praised Andre Ward for edging rounds for a 12 round UD...

... yet they bashed and ridiculed Dmitry Mikhaylenko for dominating all rounds for a 10 round UD against Karim Mayfield, an elusive opponent who had never been stopped. They were disappointed and said "he should have made a statement with a KO".

They shower praise, hype and unconditional love on the boring prima donna Ward for some reason, why do you think they do this?

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I have a pretty good idea why it bothers you ;)

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Originally Posted by p4pking

I have a pretty good idea why it bothers you ;)

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Because it's a double standard, and I believe all boxers should be judged by the same standard, regardless of where they are from.

Nationalistic commentating is a blemish on the sport. The love for Ward blinded the HBO commentators to Barrera's punches. I'm not saying Sullivan won, but Ward wasn't dominating as much as they were saying (his face was more marked up than Barrera's after the fight).

Some commentators and journalists (writers) RISE ABOVE IT and are fair and objective (such as Raul Marquez, Hopkins, Tarver, Rafael, etc.)

Kellerman, Gilfoid, Sheridan, BJ Flores and a few others are truly awful for it.

That wasn't actually the reason I had in mind:p

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Originally Posted by Freedom

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Originally Posted by p4pking

I have a pretty good idea why it bothers you ;)

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Because it's a double standard, and I believe all boxers should be judged by the same standard, regardless of where they are from.

Nationalistic commentating is a blemish on the sport. The love for Ward blinded the HBO commentators to Barrera's punches. I'm not saying Sullivan won, but Ward wasn't dominating as much as they were saying (his face was more marked up than Barrera's after the fight).

Some commentators and journalists (writers) RISE ABOVE IT and are fair and objective (such as Raul Marquez, Hopkins, Tarver, Rafael, etc.)

Kellerman, Gilfoid, Sheridan, BJ Flores and a few others are truly awful for it.

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I've said it over and over again. Americans aren't nationalistic when it comes to boxing. They more care about the name than the ethnicity. Ward is just good. If Ward were British, British commentators would be way worse about him.

Well wards a potential earner for HBO, they wont bash him on a performance regardless because he's on their banner. They did mention the time out of the ring for various reasons. Whether that was a slight or setting up for possible underperformance or the contrast of an over achieving.... they did mention it.

I didn't really rank Barrera high. As I said there was a reason he was chosen for Ward. Ward definitely had the opportunity to run away with it if barrera started slowly. Barrera seemed really stiff to me also. As for the foul, the hitting on the break and blind side Hopkins tactics, its par for the course with Ward, so I didn't expect it to highlighted. To my surprise he got called and the ref gave barrera a gimme because Ward was pitching the shutout. If it was a close fight, that's a warning at best.

That being said, ward did a good job of controlling distance on Barrera. I didn't see too many significant shots from barrera land, no matter what Abel Sanchez said. I can see Kovalev having fits with Wards, technique of staying outside, trying to counter, bridging the distance and clinching and trying to shoulder and then waiting his opponent out and throwing flurries when he tries to free his arms or steps backs to regain his leverage. and then repeating to stifle offense and create opportunities for himself.

Now more than ever, part of me is begging for Kovalev to stop this "I want to beat him in Oakland" nonsense. Not that I think the scoring for this fight was swayed by the overplayed cheering at every blocked punch or flurry by Ward, but could be... and just for the sake of acting more like a pretty much unified Champ and not like a challenger in accommodating a primadonna off a long layoff who never fights out of his home town. Ward isn't on house arrest and is perfectly capable of leaving the vicinity to prove himself. The fight doesn't have to be in russia or Florida? (is that where kovalev planted himself) Just not Oakland.

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Originally Posted by Freedom

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Originally Posted by p4pking

I have a pretty good idea why it bothers you ;)

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Because it's a double standard, and I believe all boxers should be judged by the same standard, regardless of where they are from.

Nationalistic commentating is a blemish on the sport. The love for Ward blinded the HBO commentators to Barrera's punches. I'm not saying Sullivan won, but Ward wasn't dominating as much as they were saying (his face was more marked up than Barrera's after the fight).

Some commentators and journalists (writers) RISE ABOVE IT and are fair and objective (such as Raul Marquez, Hopkins, Tarver, Rafael, etc.)

Kellerman, Gilfoid, Sheridan, BJ Flores and a few others are truly awful for it.

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Go watch the fight again with the sound off. Ward stood right in front of dude and made him miss. Those counter hooks made dude think twice about throwing punches. DID you not hear Barrera's corner complaining to him?

Maybe your disdain for ward blinded you to the ass whopping he handed barera.

Why do some say Ward hasn't lost since he was 12? Not true.

Ward had 5 amateur losses.

He only fought ONCE at world amateur level, in the then-weak light heavyweight division in the 2004 Olympics (he avoided talented middleweights like GGG and Dirrell).

Amateur Record: 114-5

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Originally Posted by Freedom

Why do some say Ward hasn't lost since he was 12? Not true.

Ward had 5 amateur losses.

He only fought ONCE at world amateur level, in thethen- weak light heavyweight division in the 2004 Olympics (he avoided talented middleweights like GGG and Dirrell).

Amateur Record: 114-5

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It says he started when he was 9. Were those losses from between 9 & 12 years of age? It also says "extends his winning streak since 1996."
That would make it correct wouldn't it? Or am I missing something?

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Originally Posted by Primo Carnera

It says he started when he was 9. Were those losses from between 9 & 12 years of age? It also says "extends his winning streak since 1996."
That would make it correct wouldn't it? Or am I missing something?

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You are. Many people start boxing at age 9 or 10, but don't participate in real tournaments until their teens.

All five of Andre Ward's official amateur losses came after age 12. His last OFFICIAL loss was in 2004.

Also he SHOULD have lost the Olympic semi-final in 2004, his opponent was robbed.

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Originally Posted by Freedom

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Originally Posted by Primo Carnera

It says he started when he was 9. Were those losses from between 9 & 12 years of age? It also says "extends his winning streak since 1996."
That would make it correct wouldn't it? Or am I missing something?

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You are. Many people start boxing at age 9 or 10, but don't participate in real tournaments until their teens.

All five of Andre Ward's official amateur losses came after age 12. His last OFFICIAL loss was in 2004.

Also he SHOULD have lost the Olympic semi-final in 2004, his opponent was robbed.

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I have no idea whether you are right or wrong, but all I know is that people have always said he was unbeaten since he was 11 or 12, and the profile you posted from Boxrec confirmed that.
I'm not bothered either way and don't want to make an issue of it , but you posted it , and if there is anything that says differently, I'm sure it shouldn't be too difficult to get hold of surely?

from my googling it seems like andre wards last losses were in 1998, so i guess he was 14 then and not 12, HBO should consider dropping him over this !


who did ward lose to in 2004?

Ward is very good. He's just hard for me to like and get behind even living a couple of hours away from Oakland as I do.

HBO were hyping him out the ass the other night, so that doesn't help his appeal. He's just bland and underwhelming in there. If he would take on that Artur Beterbiev and dominant him before fighting Kovalev that'd be very impressive.

I'm on the same page as @Hulk on Ward only I live a little further away. Its not extreme in my view to go as far as to call him an underachiever. He could have been a household name by now and the heir to you know who by dominating the last 5 years instead of sleeping through it. Selfish on my part though because its not very often one gets the opportunity to see the masters. Its disturbing to me that a guy this talented would be satisfied with mediocrity. Imagine Jordon deciding to play only half a game his entire career or Sanders only wanting the ball a couple of times a quarter. Ward has quite literally squandered 5 years of his prime.

Ward is a very good fighter and probably not as special as I thought he was. I had him being the next Hopkins but he does not take chances that B Hop did.

At least Ward if fighting and getting back on track. He has a lot of catching up to do but it is a slow train that he is on.

I've only just noticed (doh!) I might be mistaken, but no British TV channel has picked up this fight. Now Ward haters will jump on the "he's boring" bandwagon, but whether he's liked or not, it can't be denied that he's one of the best boxers and biggest names in the sport , and I'm amazed it can't be seen on British TV.

In 2004 ward did lose!!! He actually won the Olympic gold medal that year. But Kovalev lose to Korobov in the 2004 Russian tournament. Do that research!!!